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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2006 : 22:13:07
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| Gotcha. We're in complete agreement, then. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2006 : 01:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Gotcha. We're in complete agreement, then.
And that's usually a good thing coming from our authors.  |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2006 : 20:16:30
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Speaking as one person who's written on both sides of the fence, I have to say neither side drives the other in any measured way. When I was on staff (and bear in mind I've not been for more than 6 years), RPG worked with Books to balance big and small events among the books and game products. In general, the larger, broader events played out in the novels, as they helped sell the novels and also it's more exciting and dramatic to see things play out in novels than in games. (While I think there's great potential in a game product where heroes face off vs. Sarya's demonfae armies, I'm more excited in some ways to read how Rich is making this happen.)
Think of it like this--RPGs build the stage and hold rehearsals while Books put on plays within and on the stages built. Sometimes one helps build the other and vice-versa.
Even so, I feel we've failed you if the Realms didn't come alive for you in gaming products vs. fictional narratives/books. However, think of the game products as pseudo-travel books where we have to tell you about the big picture, whereas the novels get to focus on people, not places or things. If that's what you mean by why it comes alive, no game product by their very nature can give you that, I'm afraid.
Still, I hope that I can manage the transition and start again with the Realms as a novelist. Time will tell..... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2006 : 20:58:53
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Interesting the rehearsal/play reference... for me, personally, I learn more about the 'feel' of the realms from the novels, much more. Then again I am a hairsplitter and perfectionist (in my own twisted way).
When I first decided to DM in the Realms, or DragonLance before that, and Star Wars even before that, I tried to put as much information on the world into my brain before I would actually run a game. Sourcebooks, in most instances, didn't do that for me, I need to experience a world "firsthand", and on an intimate basis. Sourcebooks never really did that for me. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I never really GMed V:DA, because although I am interested in history I did not want to fill my mind with historical dates to such a degree like a friend of mine who ran our V:DA campaign did. Then again he studied history :-P
When I read about a score Realms novels and got a general feel from the campaign setting, especially geography-wise, and most importantly the Faiths&Avatars line of products I ran my own Realms game... 5 years after deciding that I wanted to run it... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2006 : 21:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Interesting the rehearsal/play reference... for me, personally, I learn more about the 'feel' of the realms from the novels, much more. Then again I am a hairsplitter and perfectionist (in my own twisted way).
When I first decided to DM in the Realms, or DragonLance before that, and Star Wars even before that, I tried to put as much information on the world into my brain before I would actually run a game. Sourcebooks, in most instances, didn't do that for me, I need to experience a world "firsthand", and on an intimate basis. Sourcebooks never really did that for me. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I never really GMed V:DA, because although I am interested in history I did not want to fill my mind with historical dates to such a degree like a friend of mine who ran our V:DA campaign did. Then again he studied history :-P
When I read about a score Realms novels and got a general feel from the campaign setting, especially geography-wise, and most importantly the Faiths&Avatars line of products I ran my own Realms game... 5 years after deciding that I wanted to run it...
While it's not a perfect analogy, I see the sourcebooks as being something like a non-fiction encyclopedia of the regions, topics, major people, significant groups, and events. The novels are like "based on a true story" movies or books where the background from the sourcebooks is often used and acknowledged, but not exclusively. The major different here is that FR novels are not based on true stories. As far as the Realms is concerned, they are true stories.
I think Richard is right that the novels need to be something entertaining even if the readers have never played (or even heard of) the RPG. That said, I know that many (probably most) novelists do check up on details in the sourcebooks (or among learned designes & authors like Eric Boyd and Ed Greenwood among others) when they want certain specific lore or more background. While most writers want to create their own characters with their own story foci, certain minor characters (or occasionally major) that crop up such as high priests or royalty are already set for a region. Thus, a novelist would try not to completely invalidate what's written in a sourcebook, but doesn't let the sourcebook dictate their story. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 07:22:45
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If I can, I would just like to give two examples of success and (what I see as) failure in the cross-media coordination of the realms:
Example 1:
Subject: Alias and Dragonbait.
Novel : Curse of the Azure Bonds
PC game: Curse of the Azure Bonds
Accessories: various (Hall of Heroes being one of my favorite)
Example 2:
Subject: Sarevok and the Iron Throne
Novel: Baldur’s Gate
PC Game: Baldur’s Gate
Accessories: various (2nd Ed. Cloak and Dagger being the current one at the time)
In example one, the relevant characters were equally well integrated across the board. And while it was not necessary to be familiar with all of the products to enjoy a single aspect of them, the fact that they were ‘in-sync’ left me with a very good impression on the quality and time spent on research and planning.
In the second example however the main villain and ‘supposed’ leaders of The Iron Throne, appear in both the BG pc-game and novel, but do not even get a single line of mention in any of the official accessories. The Iron Throne members from the book and game do not even appear in the hierarchy, nor does the doppelganger incident that throws the organization into chaos (at least in the BG region).
I once posted about this on Mr. Reynolds’ forums and he very graciously explained that the pc-game devs were granted liberty with the BG story. But since the book also followed that plotline, it made me start questioning, where does so called ‘game canon’ really come from and why had standards changed from the days of old (as per the first example)? Is it that the Realms has become too big now and ‘the left hand does not know what the right hand did’?
I know that many people only read the novels, or only play the video games or only play PnP. I also know that some combinations of these exist and that there is an even smaller group of people out there, like myself, who interact with the realms on all three levels. I understand there is a commercial angle. I understand there is a need to be creative. I just wish that the ‘deciders’ on high would realize that when they don’t do the research fully or they go beyond what has been established in an effort to stake out their own creative claim, it really rattles against some of us who really try to envision the realms as a ‘living and breathing’ place.
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 08:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
In the second example however the main villain and ‘supposed’ leaders of The Iron Throne, appear in both the BG pc-game and novel, but do not even get a single line of mention in any of the official accessories.
This is untrue. Those novels were given mention in official canon sources in 2e, namely Dragon. Then the events of those novels are also mentioned in recent 3.5e sourcebooks and Power of Faerun is one of them. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 23 May 2006 08:13:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 13:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
In the second example however the main villain and ‘supposed’ leaders of The Iron Throne, appear in both the BG pc-game and novel, but do not even get a single line of mention in any of the official accessories.
This is untrue. Those novels were given mention in official canon sources in 2e, namely Dragon. Then the events of those novels are also mentioned in recent 3.5e sourcebooks and Power of Faerun is one of them.
Indeed.
The novels are in fact canon. We know WotC has listed them as taking place in 1368 DR and 1369 DR. As well, the characters from the novels were given 2e stats in DRAGON #262 for 2e. There was also a Bhaalspawn template for 3e published in DRAGON #288. Ed wrote a sourcebook that complements the novels -- Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. And finally, along with the more recent mention in PoF, LEoF also references the events. We also have comments from Ed, Ed Bonny, and Rich Baker all confirming this as well.
The author of the last novel also chimed in on the topic -
"<Ulairi> <Howdy> Are the BG games considered canon Forgotten Realms history by WotC?
<Drew2_Bio> Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 May 2006 13:10:26 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 13:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The author of the last novel also chimed in on the topic -
"<Ulairi> <Howdy> Are the BG games considered canon Forgotten Realms history by WotC?
<Drew2_Bio> Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."
Well met
Hmmmm, most interesting. Tell me, Sage, where was this particular post? I assume "Drew2_Bio" to be Drew Karpyshyn? I have been wanting to contact him for some time. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 15:26:22
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Thanks for the info Kuje and Sage. Perhaps, I am in error in my assumptions...but that happens allot
Can you give me the specific reference pages for LEoF. (Sadly my copy of PoF is still in the snail mail). I will also have to try and track down Dragon # 262 and 288.
My question then however is, does PoF dictate a new (or alternate) history and hierarchy for The Iron Throne? Because based on the entries in both the 2e 'Cloak and Dagger' accessory (page 119 - 127) and the 3e Lords of Darkness accessory (page 141-145) there is no mention of Sarevok, the doppleganer takeover, and the slaying of the 'key' members that occurred. The Iron Throne, itself being led by a rather motley crew of individuals, includes a tiefling (Sfena - who disappears in 1371 DR), a storm giant (Krakosh), and a half elf (Maready).
Also no mention of anyone named Reiltar (the supposed leader of The Iron Throne in both the game and novel) even among the minor players listed in CaD.
“This Reiltar,” Abdel asked finally, “he leads the Iron Throne?”
“What are you here for son if you don’t know that?”
“He runs his gang from Sembia.”
The dwarf did not answer, just smiled. (From Baldur’s Gate pg.139)
No mention of the Iron Throne’s attempt to spark war a war between Amn or poisoning the mines of Nashkell. Is not this not considered to be one of their major plots?
If one were to argue that perhaps Sarevok (as a Bhaalspawn) simply claimed to be The Iron Throne, you would think that even that might be mentioned in the histories, but it is not.
So I am confused…it does not appear in two major references for both 2e and 3e….an oversight? Does PoF rectify these entries?
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 15:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Hmmmm, most interesting. Tell me, Sage, where was this particular post? I assume "Drew2_Bio" to be Drew Karpyshyn? I have been wanting to contact him for some time.
Two places actually. It was originally posted on the Bioware Boards -- and cross-posted on the FR Mailing List. It was also referenced on the WotC boards.
Drew fielded a number of questions regarding his work on the novel and the issue of whether it was canon or not. There was an WotC representative who also chimed in on that discussion. I've got the original thread saved somewhere here.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 May 2006 15:34:47 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 15:46:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Thanks for the info Kuje and Sage. Perhaps, I am in error in my assumptions...but that happens allot
Can you give me the specific reference pages for LEoF. (Sadly my copy of PoF is still in the snail mail).
It's referenced in Bhaal's entry on pgs. 41-42.
quote:
I will also have to try and track down Dragon # 262 and 288.
Both nobleknight.com and paizo.com have these issues available for purchase.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 16:34:13
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| Sage, sometimes you do frighten me...then again if someone asked me which line-up of Black Sabbath played "Headless Cross" or on which album Whitesnake first performed "Here I go again" I would have the answer also... hehehe |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 18:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
No mention of the Iron Throne’s attempt to spark war a war between Amn or poisoning the mines of Nashkell. Is not this not considered to be one of their major plots?
If one were to argue that perhaps Sarevok (as a Bhaalspawn) simply claimed to be The Iron Throne, you would think that even that might be mentioned in the histories, but it is not.
So I am confused…it does not appear in two major references for both 2e and 3e….an oversight? Does PoF rectify these entries?
The mines reference is what is in Power of Faerun. :)
As for references not being mentioned in other 2e/3e sourcebooks, sometimes that happens but there's enough official canon material about the BG novels to make them official canon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 23 May 2006 18:08:05 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 18:07:30
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And to keep this on topic.
To me, both novels and sourcebooks dictate FR especially since the first official printed item, except for what was in Dragon, was a novel and it beat the box set by a month. So, I use ALL material I can get my hands on to run FR since sometimes sourcebooks only give passing references to what happened in novels. Look at the BG discussion above, for example. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 18:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And to keep this on topic.
To me, both novels and sourcebooks dictate FR especially since the first official printed item, except for what was in Dragon, was a novel and it beat the box set by a month. So, I use ALL material I can get my hands on to run FR since sometimes sourcebooks only give passing references to what happened in novels. Look at the BG discussion above, for example. :)
I'd say that's pretty much the same for me as well.
I'll switch back and forth mostly... if there's only basic references in the sourcebooks... I'll head back to the novels and utilise that lore as a basis for my campaigns.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Do RPGs dictate novels or vice versa?
