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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2006 : 17:42:41
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I am at work and lack the book but here are my first initial impressions of the new book. I started to read through it last late last night. I will do one more proper reading before deciding to take it back. My opinion is new players will get more mileage from this book than old players.
Comments on Chapter 1: Oh boy, more new classes to add to the ever growing list. I have the same enthusiasm for new core class as I do to prestige class. The only ones I found interesting were the beguiler and duskblade. And my interest doesn’t mean I would play them. The dragon shaman with its nice little breath weapon (at 4th level) will make a nice addition as an npc for any DM’s game. Here are my two cents on the knight .I am not impressed with the class. I am not impressed with the ‘perks’ for being a knight. It is my belief that Dragonlance did it better when concerning the knight as a class. Overall my ‘immediate’ action is to ‘swift’ly move to the next chapter.
My expanded comments on chapter two: Now here was an interesting chapter for me. Taking previous character classes and expanding on them. This expansion includes new starting packages for those who want to jump right into things, several suggested play styles and new substitution level(s).
I ignored the starting packages because I never used it in the PHB. I glossed over the expansion parts; every class seemed to have at least two or three play styles listed. This part of the expansion would be helpful for very new players fleshing out their characters. I have been playing for over twenty years so I skimmed through it. (Examples: Aesthetic Monk and Bookish Monk) I liked the substitution levels this allows players to personalize their character class instead of being the generic cardboard cut-out. The only problem I notice is the number of subbing per class varied. Was this due to time constraint? ‘We must get this out quickly! Here only detail one subbing for cleric…but what the hell add two to the druid! Or was it fighter?!’ Or did they edit things out do to word count and we will see them soon in a web enhancement? ‘Uh-oh we went over, lets cut this out.’ What I did see was impressive. Take the wizard class for example, at first level you can choose to deep six the familiar forever and pick up an ability tailored made for your specialty school. (ie: A conjurer would get a 10 foot teleport used as a swift action. Yes, much potential abuse will follow…) Overall this chapter felt similar to an over long Dragon Magazine article. Read only what you want and take only want you want to the game table.
Chapter 3 Feats vs. my patience: I read some of this anyway. Here are some of my annoying opinions for this chapter: General feats can be added to the ever growing 2 thousand feats and no one will ever know. As for the rest of the feats, I will read them today after work.
Chapter 4 New Spells: Same as general feats. (see above) We even have rules and guidelines for creating new spells but they insist of throwing more at us. And kiddies just say no to polymorph.
Chapter 5: This is a great chapter that would help new Players and even new DM’s. (0-3 years of experience) For me it was a complete waste of time. And some of these materials have been drawn from various other sources like White Wolf game system to name just one. I am almost certain the being a good player part originated from common sense and a Dragon article or three. A throw away chapter for me. Read & Forget.
Chapter 7 Affiliation : Affiliations/Guilds are becoming the new prestige classes and/or feats when it comes to them flooding the market. I just flat out skipped this chapter. I am not even planning to read it. Maybe some other scribe can tell us more about this chapter.
Chapter 8 and the Appendix: Chapter 8 is the only useful chapter for me out. As a matter of fact I used this recently in Kuje game because I goofed on my character during the creation process. I retrained a feat for my character. I have no plans on rebuilding a character and not really sure who would need to do such a thing. I guess if a person is unhappy with four levels sunk into a class then they now have an out that doesn’t involve a wish/miracle spell. The appendix can be real handy for shake & bakes at conventions.
I think I will take the book back tomorrow unless I discover new reasons to keep it. So far, $35 + One Useful Chapter = Return.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 20:23:20
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| I finally managed to grab this and I glanced through it on the way home.... I might use parts of it and ignore the other parts. I did look at the preview of feats on the WOTC site and some of them made me whimper and veto for group games. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 20:28:59
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I managed to snag a copy from my local book store via phone. I'm picking it up on the way home from work today. I'm sure I will have comments on it tomorrow. From what I can tell of Bakra's review, I think I am at least interested in the concepts presented, but I can't be sure yet. I really do want to look at the Duskblade and the stuff that's in chapter 2.
I'll be sure to chime in tomorrow. I'm also postive that I will take the same stance that Kuje has on the book: Parts will be used, parts will be ignored. |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 03:21:21
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| Got mine tonight: duskblades and beguilers are really, really broken classes... lots of potential for abuse there... |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 05:29:38
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| Any particular reason why? |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 14:04:12
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The casting in medium armor and heavy shields with no penalty kind a stuck out in my mind! :) Especially when they show you how to apply the Twilight armor enchantment in a sidebar at the bottom!!
Imagine a mage in mithril fullplate with adamantine heavy shield delivering touch spells through each sword hit... yeah... hurts doesn't it? If you mix in the Twilight enchantment, they could even go adamantine fullplate with a minimum amount of arcane chance failure...
Beguilers are also scary, perhaps a little less, but I wouldn't want to meet one that has greater invisibility on him/her! (when enemy denied Dex bonus to AC, his spell DCs go up...) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 14:16:18
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I'm now reading the feats section: unlike the original poster, I find these feats very, very interesting. You see, I like to play wizards that make good use of their familiars, and there are at least 3 or 4 good familiar-synergy feats in there... the best one can be taken at 9th caster level I believe and allows a wizard to grant a bunch of 0, 1st and 2nd-level spells to the little critter!
VERY, VERY USEFUL FOR SPELLS WITH NO DAMAGE OR NO HIGH DC REQUIREMENT, SUCH AS BULL'S STRENGTH, GREASE, DETECT MAGIC, MINOR ILLUSION, ETC.
MY FAMILIAR JUST GOT VERY INTERESTING! CAN YOU SAY ALTER SELF, MY TOAD IS NOW EITHER A BAT, CAT, LIZARD, MONKEY, OWL, RAT, RAVEN, VIPER OR WEASEL?  (although being a toad is fun, seeing that it is the only amphibious animal in the Monster Manual...  )
Edit: oh, and the point of having my familiar being able to self-transform would be to enhance his mobility and deliver touch spells such as bull's strength, magic weapon, and such...  |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 12 May 2006 14:18:17 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 15:12:28
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Right, so I picked mine up yesterday and had a look. Not a thourough reading, but a page by page look.
Before I get into the meat, I’d like to say I’m very happy to see the full page paintings in the book. I missed that.
Onto the classes:
The beguiler is an interesting class, in that it’s the Warmage, except minus the war and plus the enchantment. The class also gets trapfinding, which is interesting. It’s really a rogue/wizard combo, or the bard minus the actual barding part. The beguiler is a class that reflects the theme of a lot of the rules in the book, which is to say a focus on non-combat things.
The Duskblade is pretty powerful. A full BAB plus spellcasting (from a very reduced list, and only up to 5th level spells). That said, I don’t think it’s at all overpowering. It seems like it because some of their class abilities indicate that they can cast while wearing light (and maybe medium) armor, while holding a weapon and a shield. Seems pretty buff, but when you look at their spell list, it’s just usually just a magical bonus to melee damage. And since they don’t get the amount of feats that a fighter gets, their spellcasting is just the balancing factor. I really thought they were overpowered at first, until I read up on their spells. They are really good though, but I think they end up being mostly balanced. They are a pretty nice, single classed way to get into the Bladesinger PrC though, and that’s where quite a bit of “abuse” might take place (due to sympathetic dovetails in special abilities). I’d have to look closer to check.
The Dragon Shaman, much like the knight, suffers from a naming issue. Sure, they have dragon totems and stuff, but really, there isn’t any reason why the dragon shaman has to be some wild creature. Dragon Shaman’s could easily be Clerics of Tiamat or the like and be perfectly civilized. If you use some of the organizations from Races of the Dragon, they fit in pretty good.
The Knight, well I’m sure that everyone has read up on the knight, and there have been plenty of talks about it already. I will point out that while the class seems mechanically strong, I’m not so sure about the “force all enemies to attack you” abilities. I’d have to play test it to really see how it works.
The swap stuff in the second chapter (e.x. trade your familiar for X, etc) is very useful and interesting, I think. But more could have been done with it. A lot more. Still, the basic concept was introduced to us in Unearthed Arcana (for 3.X. I’ve been swapping out abilities since 1ed, so I assume so have others) but they at least went through most of the classes, including some of those presented in the Complete series. They didn’t touch Psionics or Incarnum though.
The feats are well done, I think, and there are a few (we need many more) options for staying a singleclassed fighter via feat trees. There are a few really interesting feats for clerics and the like, but like most feats, it’s hit and miss depending on your campaign concept.
The new spells are new spells. They are new, and they are spells. Yup. Most of the new stuff relates to the new character classes in the book. That’s nice, but Duskblades only get 2 4th and 2 5th level spells. I would have liked to see more.
That’s about as far as I’ve gotten that I feel like I can comment on.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 15:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The casting in medium armor and heavy shields with no penalty kind a stuck out in my mind! :) Especially when they show you how to apply the Twilight armor enchantment in a sidebar at the bottom!!
Imagine a mage in mithril fullplate with adamantine heavy shield delivering touch spells through each sword hit... yeah... hurts doesn't it? If you mix in the Twilight enchantment, they could even go adamantine fullplate with a minimum amount of arcane chance failure...
A mage with that set up would be scary. A Duskblade, with its rather gimped spell list, isn’t really that much more frightening than a fighter with power attack. Just a different way of dealing the damage. Except with saving throws.
The warmage in mithril full plate is much more frightening.
EDIT: DANGER WILL ROBINSON! I apparently misread the spell list for the Duskblade. I just read the NEW spells presented in the PHBII, rather than their full list. This puts my review about the power of the Duskblade class in doubt. Please ignore what I said, and I will adjust accordingly once I have the book in my hands again. Sorry. |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
Edited by - Jindael on 12 May 2006 15:28:23 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 22:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
I really thought they were overpowered at first, until I read up on their spells. They are really good though, but I think they end up being mostly balanced. They are a pretty nice, single classed way to get into the Bladesinger PrC though, and that’s where quite a bit of “abuse” might take place (due to sympathetic dovetails in special abilities). I’d have to look closer to check.
Duskblades get all their abilities while fully armored.
Bladesingers can't wear any armor or shield.
Taking Duskblade to get to Bladesinger is technically feasible, but would be a big waste as you can't use your armor/shield proficiencies afterwards.
The best way to the most deadly Bladesinger is Rog3/Ftr4/Wiz1 (sneak attack, Ftr feats and enough spellcasting to qualify, which will grow enough to grant 5th-level spells by level 20). This build (Rog3/Ftr4/Wiz1/Bladesinger10 -- total character level 18) is the only thing that could possibly be close to a Duskblade 18. Other variations, such as Rog3/Ftr2/Wiz3/Bladesinger10 will give you 4th-level spells, and such as Ftr7/Wiz1/Bladesinger10 will give you a higher BAB, but you sacrifice extra sneak damage for these, which you badly need when you fight one-handed weapons exclusively.
Duskblades don't have to worry about any of this: they can get piles of damage through sword-channelled spells, spells that can go up to 5th-level, not 3rd or 4th! And they do all that while being tanks!! (while bladesingers, again, are dancing around with no armor, no hit points, and one-handed weapons).
All things considered, the bladesinger (I've played two so far, one strong in magic, the other oriented towards melee i.e. lots of wizard and lots of fighter levels, respectively) is a VERY weak character progression. 18th-level wizards kick their arses. 18th-level fighters kick their arses. And now, 18th-level duskblades kick their arses.
I wish I could envision a way to make Bladesingers the rulers supreme of the elven adventuring landscape in Faerûn, but it's just not possible. Perhaps one of you has found a way to make them "liveable" -- if so, please let me know how. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 00:06:31
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Both the RoF and CW Bladesingers ignore ASF for light armor at 6th level. I think with Battle Caster from CA, they can wear up to medium armor without ASF, and potentially even mithril full plate, since it counts as medium, and you have the proficiency from fighter. This is on top of Intelligence bonus to AC, which could potentially be very high depending on your build and resources. A bladesinger building off the the wizard class can know any spell arcane spell they can get their hands on. And there are probably ways to maximize both BAB and Spellcasting levels.
While I don't have PHB2, all discussion of the "broken" Duskblade has sort of fizzled on the WotC boards. It seems to be a nice non-multiclassing and PrC-less gish, but nothing terribly unbalanced. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2006 : 04:38:20
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| While I do not consider duskblades 'broken' (i.e. fighter 18 or wizard 18 kick duskblade 18 arse easily), I seriously think that they could take any bladesinger coming their way. Like many classes out there, I suspect that the full extent of the class' power will only be truly gauged after a few months/years of playtest (i.e. I still don't know what a Rogue, Monk or Bard 18 really, really looks like in combat: most of the characters I've had or DMed with these classes ended up multiclassed in some way or another...) |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 13 May 2006 23:01:45 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 02:33:58
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After reading the whole spellist for the Duskblade, I stand by what I previously said. Their spellcasting ability is basically a "choose your special effect" to damage X number of times per day. Sure, they get disintegrate, chain lightning and polar ray, but not until 17th level! Fighters will have a ton of tricks up their sleeves at this level , and wizards are leveling armies single handedly. They don't have the Hit points to tank as well as a paladin or barbarian (or Knight), at least not at high level.
However, at low levels (just like fighters and barbarians) they do have strong-kung-fu, slightly more than a fighter, but still less than a raging barbarian.
Purple Dragon Knight: You are absolutely right about bladesingers. The Duskblade is mostly useless for going into Bladesinger, as you lose a lot of your special abilities. The advantage you do get is keeping your full BAB, which isn't all that important. It might be worth a two level dip though. Possibly. Only one level if your just looking to give your fighter a little something extra. (like a will save with full BAB...that alone almost makes it worth dipping into.)
On a related note; I also agree with you on the general low survivability mechanics that the bladesinger gets.
Edit: Fixed a typo |
"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
Edited by - Jindael on 15 May 2006 14:23:22 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 02:49:56
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| My copy of this should be arriving by Friday! Yay! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 03:43:45
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The guy I actually trust at the hobby shop (i.e. not the guy that ridicules my FR purchases . . . yeah, I don't shop there when he is working), basically confirmed what I thought . . . not a bad quality book, some really neat ideas, but don't rubber stamp the book as "its all good." He runs a homebrew, but also plays in an Iron Kingdoms and an Eberron game, and points out that there are elements he thinks could work in Iron Kingdoms, but not Eberron, and lots of stuff he could work into his homebrew, that are a pain in rear to work into an existing campaign setting (see the above discussion about duskblades and bladesingers).
I'll likely pick it up, but its a second tier purchase, especially with two FR books on the horizon (and my daughter's newfound interest in psionics). |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 23:36:08
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Took a brief look at it, over all it was Meh to me just like the DMG II. They are books that I will eventually acquire, but not anytime soon.
And two of my players have picked of PHB II.
Duskblade and Beguiler both do look interesting, and noticed the Beguiler can wear light armor with no arcane failure at 1st level.
Several of the feats appear to be reprints/remakes and several are interesting. |
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D20 System Reference Document
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 13:15:48
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Trophy Collector is certainly one that could be deemed "interesting," seeing that nearly every party I've seen has someone cutting off monster parts at the end of battles!  |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 14:21:20
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I’m usually at work when I check the Candlekeep boards. I leave the page up most of the day and check them when I get a free moment. At one point, I was reading this thread, and then a co-worker stepped into my office for a chat. After a lull, he asks me “What is Psionics?”
This is an odd question for a non gaming co-worker, but I remember that Candlekeep is up, and answer “It’s sort of like telepathy and ESP and stuff like that. Are you looking at my computer?”
My co-workers facials expression got a little odd, a touch dubious. I checked the computer and at the top of the screen (the rest hidden by another window) is this:
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'll likely pick it up, but its a second tier purchase, especially with two FR books on the horizon (and my daughter's newfound interest in psionics).
^_^
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 15:34:00
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Goodness, my daughter manages to spread mischief even when she isn't present . . .
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 02:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Goodness, my daughter manages to spread mischief even when she isn't present . . .
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 03:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Trophy Collector is certainly one that could be deemed "interesting," seeing that nearly every party I've seen has someone cutting off monster parts at the end of battles!
I do have one of those. Is it a feat?
Yes, and a colorful one at that! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 03:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Trophy Collector is certainly one that could be deemed "interesting," seeing that nearly every party I've seen has someone cutting off monster parts at the end of battles!
I had a character that did that a couple of times... In one enounter, some wolves gnawled on his leg. After the wolves were slain, he wound up with a wolf-tooth necklace.
Later he made a new necklace, with a single T Rex tooth on it. That was his incredibly lucky kill -- a critical hit on a called shot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 18:57:58
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| My copy arrived yesterday. Wow; nice selection of class options, some helpful tips, and they managed to make a great mechanic(the affiliation system) even better. |
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Zeboaster of Ordulin
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 19:25:36
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IMO, most of the book will be pretty good for an FR game.
I'm only debating the Organization benefits in one of the later chapters (where you gain benefits for how you stand in an organization). It's a great idea, but I think some of the things there are a little overpowered perhaps. I have to think it through first, I think before I use it...
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Zeboaster, a distinguised character known for his sarcasm and perfumed beard, is currently in hiding after making one too many witty and/or truthful remarks.
FRA p96 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 04:24:36
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I play a wizard in a friend's campaign and let me tell you that I was VERY close to reroll my wizard's levels into duskblade levels... the d8 hp and full BAB is SO tempting, considering the sheer amount of spells they receive... (5th-level spells being the highests)
The only thing that held me from doing it was that I wish to wield those sweet, sweet 6th+ spell levels... ...and that without my full-fledged wizard skills, our party would be stuck without teleports in the teen levels, which would be very uncool! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 21:03:55
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| One thing I have noticed that I don't like is some of the naming; there's a spell called Mana Flux, for example, and a combat style feat called Einhander. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 06:14:10
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| if you got it, keep it. If not, it may not be worth getting. Puruse the tome at the store a little bit before placing some hard earned dollars on it. if you are a hard core collection type, it is for you, otherwise buy some FR supplement instead. |
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Berwick
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 06:19:36
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Here is a question for the sages....
What is the deal with the affilitations chapter? I looked at it, and initially thought..."SWEET!"
However, after thinking about it for awhile, I have but one question...
What gives?
I suppose there may be some way for me to splice all the rules together for guilds, organizations, and the new affilations...but that is ALOT of work.
So, hmm, I guess what the base question here is, if one was to use the seperate the differences between all of the options, how would one choose which type to use when?
 Berwick |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 17:04:01
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Just got a copy of the PHB2 and it seems ok. I'm a sucker for new feats/items/spells/prestige classes, although I'm not a fan of all these new base classes.
I probably won't read too much of it, I mainly wanted a copy just so I could find out what the beguilers all about. That class was *made* just for me I'm sure of it
Looking forward very much to giving one a test run in a new campaign coming soon |
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PHB II : To return or not return?
