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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:04:32
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A few other threads got me to thinking about this one. If a demon lord or archdevil had divine worshippers going into the Time of Troubles, how did this work out for them? Did they still get access to their spells during this time. Obviously they still had to contend with Wild Magic, but I can see some definate potential for conversion or at least mischief if the fiends could still grant spells when most followers of the gods were not able to receive them.
I know a few of the Demon Lords were considered lesser gods in 2nd edition, but I don't beleive that singular fiends were cast down to Toril as the gods were. The only monkey wrench I could see in this is that potentially, since the fiends aren't actually divine, they may actually be leeching power off the gods to grant spells, and as such, during the ToT they wouldn't have the wellspring to work from, so to speak.
Just wondering what my fellow scribes take on this was.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:11:39
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I'd say if they were deities as well as fiend lords, they would have been cast down as well since ALL deities connected to Realmspace were cast down.
If they weren't deities, then I'd see no reason for them to be cast down.....
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2006 03:14:24 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:20:56
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Well, anything deity-like was always going to be affected by Ao's decree and the effects of being cast down during the initial period of the Time of Troubles. So fiendish powers, if they had any facility for divine power in the Realms, would likely have also been affected by Ao's decision to cast all powers down.
If we're talking about fiendish lords that aren't actually deities, but act as though they are, then their overall power and influence was unlikely to have been directly affected by Ao's decree. In fact, we would probably have seen such fiendish lords seize upon opportunities for grabbing a little power here and there due to the divine absence of powers.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd say if they were deities as well as fiend lords, they would have been cast down as well since ALL deities connected to Realmspace were cast down.
I know this is nit-picky and I'm not doing this to correct Kuje because it was an obvious oversight but I thought I would say something for any newbies who may read these posts...
Not ALL gods were cast down, Helm was not cast down from the heavens, he instead stood as guardian for Ao and ensured that no deities tried to re-enter the heavens. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:39:05
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| Hm . . . perhaps I should shuffle back through my Monster Mythology and see how many of the demon lords ended up being listed as deities. If nothing else, in my campaign I might tie in an explanation for why they went from demon lords to gods and back to demon lords again. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Not ALL gods were cast down, Helm was not cast down from the heavens, he instead stood as guardian for Ao and ensured that no deities tried to re-enter the heavens.
While that's true... that decision by Ao still had a negative impact on Helm and his overall worship in the Realms as a whole. So while he may not have been "cast down" in the same sense as the rest of the gods... Helm's status and influence was somewhat affected by the Time of Troubles and the events that transpired.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd say if they were deities as well as fiend lords, they would have been cast down as well since ALL deities connected to Realmspace were cast down.
I know this is nit-picky and I'm not doing this to correct Kuje because it was an obvious oversight but I thought I would say something for any newbies who may read these posts...
Not ALL gods were cast down, Helm was not cast down from the heavens, he instead stood as guardian for Ao and ensured that no deities tried to re-enter the heavens.
Your right. :) My fault. Plus, I tend to hate ToT's discussions and I should learn to stay out of them since I don't use those events in my version. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 04:34:17
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| Grazzt wasnt kicked out during the ToT see For Duty and Deity |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 10:07:30
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So maybe the Arch-Devils and Demon Princes werent actually true deities in the sense of the word. They may have had all the powers/abilities of deities but perhaps they were of a different nature than the Gods who were cast down.
Several 3rd Edition sources mention or make hints at beings just as powerful as deities (a lot of them hailing from far realm).
True, the different Gods books in 2e, such as Monster Mythologies, name several Demon Princes as Gods (Yeenoghu, Kostchtie et al.) but perhaps they are beings with a similar amount of power and abilities as true Deities. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 11:01:17
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I'm not that familiar with the monster pantheons, but since deities like the gnoll god (forgot the name) are also demon lords I'm not sure how it will be/had been handled. Arushnee was turned into a Tanar'ri, thus she is a demon, yet she is also a god (duh), and she was thrown out the same as any other deity. It would be only reasonable to assume that those devils/demons who are also worshipped as deities have been cast out.
If this is the case there would also be those deities/demons be present at Cynosure (sp?), as would be Gruumsh and any other god. Any other thing would be quite silly. Even if they were not present all the time, they'd have a reserved place there and could attend any meetings they wanted to. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 11:09:42
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See I always liked the idea that the fiends tend to be outside of the divine structure of power. It makes them rebels and not just alternate outsiders that can grant spells. I never really liked the idea that demons and devils are just the things that serve evil gods, but rather that they make useful servants while serving two masters, making them a double edged sword for evil gods to use.
According to one alternate rule cited in the BoVD, demon lords and arch devils are treated as divine rank 0 divinities in their own realms only.
I wonder now . . . is Gorellik suppose to be a demon lord now, or a true god?
Oh, and I always got the impression that when Arushnee was stripped of her divinity, she became a demon. Slowly, over the years, she clawed her way up to goddess again by granting spells just like a "normal" demon lord, until she had solid enough worship that she was considered a full fledged goddess again. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 11:28:28
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So divine ascension from demon to god is possible, if we take Arushnee's case?
Devils and demons and whatnot are not divine beings, per se, but they should be able to ascend. Take Graz'zt's plot to gain more power, divine power, by putting his daughter into the Realms at Waukeen's place, as it was shown in "For Duty and Deity".
There is a distinct difference, otherwise gods like Cyric could be considered demons... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 17:48:17
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Nay, in 2e if a fiend was mentioned as being a deity, then it was a deity. Many of them were still listed, in FR, as deities through many of the 3e FR sourcebooks.
I still see no reason why the fiends that were deities were exempt from Ao's banishment during the ToT's. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 21:49:05
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The question then comes down to a few things... can these demons create avatars? If not, then MAYBE they couldn't be cast down in the same method without actually increasing their divine status to a degree (something Ao probably wouldn't do for some minor things like this).
As a sidetrek in this vein, anyone ever narrow down when the date was that the Witch-King Zhengyi actually defeated King Virdin Bloodfeather at the ford of Goliad and seized control of Damara? I believe in the original boxed set it hadn't happened yet, but the original bloodstone lands add-on doesn't cover how Orcus' followers were affected by the ToT. Could this have had an additional effect there? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 22:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As a sidetrek in this vein, anyone ever narrow down when the date was that the Witch-King Zhengyi actually defeated King Virdin Bloodfeather at the ford of Goliad and seized control of Damara? I believe in the original boxed set it hadn't happened yet, but the original bloodstone lands add-on doesn't cover how Orcus' followers were affected by the ToT. Could this have had an additional effect there?
1357 according to the FRCS. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 00:58:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As a sidetrek in this vein, anyone ever narrow down when the date was that the Witch-King Zhengyi actually defeated King Virdin Bloodfeather at the ford of Goliad and seized control of Damara?
For future reference, you can check dates of important events with ease using A Grand History of the Realms by our own Brian James. It's a fabulous PDF compilation of timelines on Faerunian history and is available for download right here at Candlekeep:- http://candlekeep.com/downloads/grandhistory.zip
We've also been told by Brian to expect an update very soon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 01:23:09
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My own take on the difference between the actual divine and demon lords and archdevils (and daemons for that matter), is as followers (keep in mind, this is just and only my take on things):
Fiends feed off of fear and negative emotion. Hence the torment of souls, etc. Powerful singular fiends are able to grant divine spells because the can, in some way, siphon off the power of gods, not because they themselves are divine. In other words, no gods, no fiends granting divine power either. That was an idea I had earlier, but after thinking about it, I guess that would answer my own question about them granting spells during the ToT.
Fiends that are worshipped as gods do not automatically get the same kind of sustanance and power from worshippers that gods do. If they are accepted as gods, but whatever process they might have to go through (for example, Ao agreeing to give them a portfolio of their own), but they may still hang onto demonic (or devilish if you will) traits like feeding off of fear as well.
Another idea that I had that I had posted a few months back was that fiends might have a harder time granting spells, thus they required sacrifice, not just as a supplication, but to actually allow the bond to be forged that allows them to grant spells to a worshipper, or they may do so through an evil artifact or relic.
Finally, while I can see some demon lords (Orcus, Lolth) wanting to gain divinity and dominion over their portfolio, I can also see some that just enjoy (or beleive they have more overall power) subverting the worship of legitimate deities. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 01:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Finally, while I can see some demon lords (Orcus, Lolth) wanting to gain divinity and dominion over their portfolio, I can also see some that just enjoy (or beleive they have more overall power) subverting the worship of legitimate deities.
As I said above... I can imagine a little of this occured for non-deity fiendish lords with eyes on the Realms. With the absence of the gods and no direct challenge to a fiendish lord subverting some part of a god's worship (either through impersonation or through subtle corruption of a particular clergy) it's entirely possible that some clergies somewhere in the Realms during the ToT where actually being directed by and worshipping fiendish lords looking for opportunities in the Realms.
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Archdevils, Demon Lords, worshippers, and the ToT
