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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 15:34:29
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1) How are marriages handled by the various races in the Realms? I'm assuming (and only assuming) that a priest of a particular deity would take care of that, like priests of Hanali Celanil and Berronar Truesilver taking care of elven and dwarven marriages respectively. If that's the case, who looks after human weddings?
2) Would there be any confirmation of the coming of age for a human when he/she reaches a certain age? In really isolated villages and if there is only one season throughout the year (think tropical), how would the villagers keep track of time?
3) Where would a small group of winged dwarves settle? We're talking of freaks from a wizard's experiment, and potentially a whole new race.
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"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:02:05
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1) Ed has covered, somewhat, marriages/weddings in the Realms -- with respect to conduct by a particular church and/or clergy (Sharess's and Lliira's) -- in his replies here at Candlekeep. Unfortunately, actual details on such ceremonies isn't something Ed has had much opportunity to properly cover in the Realmslore.
Tymoran wedding ceremonies received some treatment in Ed's Spellfire novels.
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 Apr 2006 16:03:37 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:06:45
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1. It depends on the favoured gods of the couple and/or their families and community. Spellfire has an example of such a ceremony, and Ed said:quote:
[I]t depends on the faith and the individual church. Formal marriages (i.e. with written contracts and witnesses, as opposed to a simple private ceremony followed by a party if the couple want it/can afford it) are rare among those who don’t have significant wealth or land to pass on. Some faiths assume a marriage is forever (most of these have been amended to “until death,” to prevent undead terrorizing the living by insisting on returning to the house and climbing into bed with them), but most ARE, as you speculate, based on “for as long as love lasts.” In some places and faiths, this leads to a swinging lifestyle, but in most places, the public disapproves of those who abandon spouses without good moral reason (the only difference I see between most of the Heartlands of the Realms and the prevalent real-world modern Western society view is that in the Realms, short-term or seldom-consummated affairs aren’t seen as sufficient “moral reason” to end a marriage). Spouse-beating, however, IS. One is expected to remain with a spouse, and tend them in illness or dying. (And yes, there are a fair number of caravan merchants who have wives in various cities, usually without one knowing about the others, though a few even write back and forth, or journey with the merchant from time to time, to visit each other.)
Formal marriages always have SIMPLE clauses outlining what happens to lands and goods when a union ends, and many weddings involving nobility insist on both parties formally and in writing (with priests using magic to make sure the participants aren’t being magically compelled to act in a certain way, blackmailed, or coerced by drugs or other means) ending the marriage, not just one—so spouses who hate each other can keep each other bound in marriage (unless one manages to have the other killed, a risky proceeding because in Cormyr, Sembia, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and most other “civilized” places, the slayer of a spouse forfeits all property to the government).
Again, there are faiths (those closely tied to nature in particular) who conduct and recognize both “forever” and “short-term” marriages (usually “two summers,” “three summers” or “ten summers”), which may of course be renewed. The clergy of Siamorphe from time to time conduct “overnight” marriages, allowing one-night stands to be legal and divinely approved, but always publicly renounce this practise when angry kin complain to governing authorities . . . only to quietly resume it again, elsewhen.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:08:23
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2) Perhaps. I think that's largely down to the basis of local customs and traditions which are specific to that one region, among smaller populations, which have probably been worked into many "coming of age" ceremonies.
So while the basic practice of a "coming of age" ceremony would likely be somewhat similar across the Realms -- small variations in technique and overall operation would probably be the result of influence from local beliefs and cultural customs indicative of that region.
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
137 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
1) How are marriages handled by the various races in the Realms? I'm assuming (and only assuming) that a priest of a particular deity would take care of that, like priests of Hanali Celanil and Berronar Truesilver taking care of elven and dwarven marriages respectively. If that's the case, who looks after human weddings?
Actually, it seems that ministers/clergy of any faith can perform legally/religiously binding weddings. IIRC, in Spellfire Shandril and Narm are married by Tymoran priests (I want to say Rathan himself performed the ceremony?) and Narm mentions that his parents (both of them wizards) were 'wed under Mystra'. Ed's Answers threads of previous years have detailed wedding customs of the Sharessan faith (including the expected amount of licentious behaviour and specific mention that Sharessan rites do not forbid a given person to marry more than one other if their new partner doesn't mind!). Who performs a wedding for any given couple seems to depend on the religious beliefs of the people to be wed and the availability of a suitable clergy(wo)man.
(Personally, I shudder to imagine what a wedding under Umberlee or Talos might entail....  ) |
D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.
FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerűn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerűn, Player's Guide to Faerűn, Power of Faerűn, Races of Faerűn, Silver Marches.
I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough.  |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:25:07
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| And would you trust a wedding performed by a priest of Mask? Hahaha hidden secrets indeed, your new bride is actually a man under that dress....... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:26:34
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1) You need to remember there is belief in many deities. Clerics in my view will provide marriage rights for couples that have different patron saints and some I would expext have no problem providing weddings for even different races. Sune would be one deity that has an interest in marriage, however I am sure others have an interest as well.
2) Comfirmation likely does not exist in the way you mean and likely does not occur at any set age. The closest thing to a comformation would be when a person selects their patron deity, which is a personal decsion. They might tell a Cleric of that deity and perhaps offered some instructio, perhaps rven given a gift (praybook, figurine orother token of the faith). Remember selecting a patron deity does not mean one stops believing in the others, just honors and prays most often to their selected one. As for keep track of birth years that is not a proble. The people in FR have a higher literacy rate then Earth. People will know what day, month and year (including th name of the year) in most cases. Even those lacking literacy, they can count the seasons and likely know the name of the year in which they were born.
3) This is a DM call, I would think perhaps tops of mountains. Places that were hard to dig mines up to. It being easier to dig down. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
(Personally, I shudder to imagine what a wedding under Umberlee or Talos might entail.... )
Actually, I'd be more afraid of Loviatar's marriage rituals. :)
Sigh,
Someday, I will get more of these deity ceremonies from Ed. I just have to pester him enough. :)
As for the topic, each deity has thier own wedding ceremonies and there is no one deity that has more interest over these ceremonies then another. Each deity is just as important as any other, which is why we don't see a deity of marriage.
But since most of the ceremonies have never been detailed, ya'll have to make them up. :) I could see a lot of heavy drinking of ale for dwarven ceremonies. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2006 17:13:13 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:18:41
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| Oh an add on to 2) there will be some people that would not know birth date, infants and young children surviving a massacre of the parents and communities. These would be the exception of being told by parents the day, month and year of birth |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
(Personally, I shudder to imagine what a wedding under Umberlee or Talos might entail.... )
Actually, I'd be more afraid of Loviatar's marriage rituals. :)
Somehow, I see THO getting in on the act as well.
Traditional roleplay for Loviatar marriage rituals   .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:31:26
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| 3) Winged dwarves, **just not right**, would do quite well in the Great Rift, if the gold dwarves allowed them there. Other than that, they would make great miners in obscure locations that their wings can take them to, that few others can reach. Still, there would be the problem of transporting the ores they mine out of the region, unless their wings allow for quite a bit of weight. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:51:02
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dwarves use ores, hoard gems, they collect wealth as much as they can. If finding gems, they are light to transport. Also of course they can make jewery *wink*
The winged craftsmen/miners could sell manufactured goods, like weapons as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But since most of the ceremonies have never been detailed, ya'll have to make them up. :) I could see a lot of heavy drinking of ale for dwarven ceremonies.
Hmm...make them up. Any suggestions on how ceremonies under Bane might look like? I can imagine the couple who wed under Tempus' name would probably duel each other at the end of the ceremony to see who carries the other to bed... *Shrugs*
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
Still, there would be the problem of transporting the ores they mine out of the region, unless their wings allow for quite a bit of weight.
Well, according to the current scenario the dwarves were seen diving in with full battlegear and one managed to carry an orc up for some time before dropping it. So if they start mining with light armor, I think it should be possible. Our party's supposed to help the dwarves find a home, since they'd probably be outcasts among other dwarves. |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 18:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
Hmm...make them up. Any suggestions on how ceremonies under Bane might look like? I can imagine the couple who wed under Tempus' name would probably duel each other at the end of the ceremony to see who carries the other to bed... *Shrugs*
Well.... maybe they go somewhere and go slaughter some people to cause fear after the ceremony is over. :) Or they.... I dunno... cause tyrany by burning down settlements and taking slaves. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 01:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
Hmm...make them up. Any suggestions on how ceremonies under Bane might look like? I can imagine the couple who wed under Tempus' name would probably duel each other at the end of the ceremony to see who carries the other to bed... *Shrugs*
Well.... maybe they go somewhere and go slaughter some people to cause fear after the ceremony is over. :) Or they.... I dunno... cause tyrany by burning down settlements and taking slaves. :)
I would imagine Banite ceremonies are fairly regimented... with the parties involved making proclamations about the "grandness" of tyranny and the surrendering of authority to Bane the Black Tyrant.
Ceremonies my be a night affair, conducted at the darkest hour with a enemy of the Banites brought before the couple who must torture and then kill the enemy -- ensuring the maximum amount of fear from the enemy before death (with the method of death selected by the couple) -- as a strong show of faith to Bane.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 14:42:55
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| How about a wedding under Beshaba? flip a coin and if u lose, the marriage is called off. lol |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 22:47:30
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For the flying dwarves, I'd find a really inaccessable mountain top/range. You're going to have to balance distance from civilisation with what kind of monstrous neighbors they would have. For example, the Star Mounts would be out, since they're crawling with dragons right now. Probably likewise the Lost Peaks, since they're too close to the Star Mounts.
How many flying dwarves are we talking about? And how far are they able/willing to travel? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 23:21:03
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| Currently a group of 23 flying dwarves. Met them south of the High Forest, and by the way RP is going, they don't seem to care how far they'll go, just as long as the party leads them. |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 23:46:39
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| 32 are not a lot to even found a comunity, I will grant that there is enough there that all classes can be repersented, but at 1st level not sure all skills and professions can be repersented. There is also the posiblr problem as to if they are a viable sub-race, that is able to give birth to winged children. The other option of course is mage making a few evey day or whatever, though if some left odds are others will leave as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 03:14:17
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I've got three possibilities for you. First of all, my criteria: I eliminated all mountains anywhere near Thay (we know they hunted avariel, no reason they wouldn't hunt your dwarves) or the Moonsea. Then I eliminated anything too close to massed humanoids (Thar and the Spine of the World). Then I just wandered around on the map, looking for things that seemed good.
My three:
1) The Snowflake Mountains - they're between several nations but part of none, with friendly humans and elves nearby. Their orc population has recently been somewhat decreased, and the dragon that laired there is now dead (find his lair for instant wealth and a lair)
2) The mountains around Evereska - this one's tricky, but if you negotiate with the elves well, you'll get access to one of the most inaccessible and well-guarded mountain retreats in Faerun. Depending on when your campaign is set and whether you've incorporated Return of the Archwizards/Last Mythal, they might be very glad to ally with a bunch of flying warriors.
3) The Lost Vale - If they're facing persecution everywhere and neither dwarves nor elves with have anything to do with them, try here. The saurials use only a fraction of the vale's resources, and there are even other fliers to make the dwarves feel at home.
And I'm with Kentinal, it's going to be a tough hall for the flying dwarves to become a viable subrace and avoid the problems of inbreeding, even if they breed true. Best of luck. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2006 : 09:52:55
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Thanks for the help 
So far the party's leading the dwarves without much problems, though DM ain't telling us if there's more of these butterflies or not.
Going off topic a bit, how do you differenciate a bearded male dwarf from a bearded female one? |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2006 : 15:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
Going off topic a bit, how do you differenciate a bearded male dwarf from a bearded female one?
Well, you could always take a look down below... But expect to get hit several times if you do. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2006 : 15:21:41
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| Well it does depwnd some on how much the two genders look alike, etc. Tolkien had them look so much alike that other races did not believe there were any female Dwarves at all. If your DM plays them this way, short of seeing them naked, one will have to learn from other Dwarves (either my names or pronouns). If only females wear jewery, or display female gender traits, distict from male gender traits one might in general figure out the gender by observation as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2006 : 19:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
(Personally, I shudder to imagine what a wedding under Umberlee or Talos might entail.... )
Actually, I'd be more afraid of Loviatar's marriage rituals. :)
Actually, I'm quite interested in those myself --- due to Loviatar's emphasis on pain and not power exchange, there's not much of a real world yardstick to work off of(as collaring ceremonies seem out of theme for her). And I think I just had an idea....
Instead of wedding bands or any other signifier, Loviatan wedded couples receive new piercings somewhere during the ceremony which are linked together with a length of chain. They stay this way for a tenday.
(Aside: I need another shelf for D&D books. My hand hurts from checking the Loviatan form.) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2006 : 21:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
(Personally, I shudder to imagine what a wedding under Umberlee or Talos might entail.... )
Actually, I'd be more afraid of Loviatar's marriage rituals. :)
Actually, I'm quite interested in those myself --- due to Loviatar's emphasis on pain and not power exchange, there's not much of a real world yardstick to work off of(as collaring ceremonies seem out of theme for her). And I think I just had an idea....
Instead of wedding bands or any other signifier, Loviatan wedded couples receive new piercings somewhere during the ceremony which are linked together with a length of chain. They stay this way for a tenday.
(Aside: I need another shelf for D&D books. My hand hurts from checking the Loviatan form.)
I've tried to get them out of Ed for 2 years. :) He won't do it cause this is supposed to be a semi-kid friendly site. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 05:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
Thanks for the help
So far the party's leading the dwarves without much problems, though DM ain't telling us if there's more of these butterflies or not.
Going off topic a bit, how do you differenciate a bearded male dwarf from a bearded female one?
Bearded females are either a)not concerned if anyone other than a dwarf knows their gender b)traditional in the sense that they let their beards grow, and probably would be offended if you can't identify them as women, or c)in disguise, trying to pass themselves off as males.
Click on the Candlekeep Compendium link in my sig, and look at Volume 1 for more insight into dwarves, and their facial hair. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Stardrake
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 01:07:05
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Well, this was useful--I came looking for info on marriage in the Realms, and found this thread straightaway. So, it's up to me (being the DM, after all). The celebrants are followers of Lathander and Torm, so it won't be too kinky . Now if they can just keep the PC's young friend (a noble's daughter) from throwing them a shindig that leaves half of Silverymoon hung over........ |
Void where prohibited by natural law. |
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RazorRose
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 05:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Stardrake
Now if they can just keep the PC's young friend (a noble's daughter) from throwing them a shindig that leaves half of Silverymoon hung over........
Not that leaving half of Silverymoon hung over is any great crime in that city...
You know, I was expecting to find weddings being more of a civil thing than a religious thing, really. I think that this just makes sense to me because of the likelihood of the people marrying each having a different religious emphasis in the multiple pantheons available to them. What if the marriage ceremonies are vastly different? Wouldn't it be simpler to have the Mayor or some other official pronounce you wed? Or should having to hash out the details of how the wedding will proceed be a lesson in compromise for the betrothed? |
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Stardrake
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 00:19:29
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| Well, in our game, it looks like they'll go to a cleric of yet a third god as a compromise. (He's a Torm follower, she follows Lathander, and she's likely to ask another PC who's a cleric of Chauntea to officiate.) N.B--the groom is an NPC, and the bride is played by my lady wife. I may make it a dual-officiant wedding--he's a Knight in Silver, and so I may involve an officer of the order, as well. |
Void where prohibited by natural law. |
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Weddings, birthdays and...flying dwarves?
