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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand


Plus, the rebels didn't really care about the millions of lives they ruined/took away when they blew up the Death Stars. There really wasn't much remorse in them at all. They killed because the enemy was 'evil'. The accountant or technician aboard the Death Stars were just doing their job.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Clerks flashback!

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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Clerks flashback!

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Call me ignorant but I still haven't seen it

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Make the hero take responsibility, damn it. I hate it especially when he stays his hand from the killing blow, then the villain tries one last time to kill him, forcing him to defend himself. Gag me with a cliche and slap the author with a frozen fish for being a milksop who can't bear to see her hero do something that's less than completely virtuous, oh noes.

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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Yep, I think that's it. Alignment is a crutch for the player, not something that people 'feel' consciously. And in FR novels it should not even be considered as the author strives (or should strive in some cases) to portray a character as plausible and realistically as possible. The problem with the FR is, that it is a game setting as well, so people are bound to ponder the various alignments of the portrayed characters.

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As long as those 'good' guys know that they are walking the thin line and do not try to cross it, the situation is handled well. If they don't and remain self-righteous, they turn bad quickly.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

And that's why, ladies and gentlemen, Han shot FIRST.

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Originally posted by Dremvek

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

And that's why, ladies and gentlemen, Han shot FIRST.

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Not in the latest rerelease, sadly......

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I believe, deep at heart, that people can indeed inflict real damage by glorifying that which is truly horrible, rather than presenting it as it really is (truly horrible). I have a big problem with some of these crime scene shows, for instance, that show rooms just covered in blood, as though someone brought in a hose, and are all about women being raped and mutilated (every week, there's a new one) -- none of it true to the real consequences (psychological as well as physical) of those sorts of events; it's only "horrible" in an abstract sense in some of this tripe that hits the screen.

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Originally posted by James P. Davis

In writing I think this can be a fine line. To show the consequences of commiting such acts (should there be any for the given villain as an individual) one should consider the "villain's" POV. He/she might do something that one might deem reprehensible, yet the POV would typically not display this form of opinion. The glorification might only be perceived in the lack of terms that pointed it out, terms the villain him/herself would never use. The "heroes" might act based on the nature of the crimes (and be appalled, disgusted, etc.), but the psychological aspects of the villain can only be explored through the villain and then only in the mirror one places before them.

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I should probably clarify my post: I wasn't really talking about the implications / consequences for the perpetrator -- I was talking about the consequences for the victim.

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Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

I've always thought that one of the interesting things about the Star Wars films is that so little effort is made to justify the assertion that the Empire is fundamentally evil. We're just supposed to take George Lucas's word for it. Admittedly, we see the Empire using harsh measures to fight the Rebellion, but there's no actual demonstration that it rules oppressively when it isn't chasing Rebels.
The Ewoks, on the other hand, were prepared to eat other sentient beings, and I've always regretted that we don't actually see them feasting on dead Stormtroopers at the end of Return of the Jedi.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie



I should probably clarify my post: I wasn't really talking about the implications / consequences for the perpetrator -- I was talking about the consequences for the victim.

I think the source of my rant isn't about antiheroes / villains, or even fantasy at all: It's mostly what I perceive as the insensitive and poor way in which violence (particularly sexual violence) is depicted on TV and film. Which strays quite far from the topic; my apologies for that.

Sexual violence is all too often reduced to a plot device, and often exists only as a mean to make a villain seem "villainous." My sense (and I could be totally wrong -- just a thought) is that directors and screenwriters are so caught up in the violence itself, and the implications, and perhaps a rather nasty thrill, that they completely neglect the real life consequences of the actions. For instance, a rape victim can (and often does, I've found from talking to a number of victims) suffer fundamental psychological damage: inability to trust people, loss of self-worth or self-esteem, feelings of insecurity about being alone, feelings of fear about being alone, feelings of guilt, dirtiness, and shame.

Are any of these explored in "mainstream" entertainment? No. I find this a terribly insensitive and even harmful false portrayal of something that is a really, really important issue in our society. It's demeaning and it's terribly offensive.

Now, I want to make perfectly clear that I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk about things like sexual violence and the really vile things people are capable of, nor even that heroes can't be, sometimes, really vile. But doesn't it seem reasonable to ask that it be sensitively / realistically dealt with? I don't think one should glorify or romanticize brutality and cruelty. Show it for what it is -- brutal, and cruel.

Now -- villains as heroes. Sure -- go for it. Have heroes be murderers, rapists, even child molestors, if you want. Sure. But I'd rather it MEAN SOMETHING, rather than it being done just for the sake of it being done. Rather than just having it be a plot device.

Thanks. No more ranting from me.

Good discussion, all! Keep it going!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Ballistic

Another good thing about characters who have a lot of grey area, is that they seem to get to say all the good lines. The following quote, for example, has become one of my favorites because it showcases the personality of a gray character.

"Ain't logical. Cuttin' on his own face, rapin' and murdering - Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid. But these Reavers... last ten years they show up like the bogeyman from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?"

I wouldn't exactly call that remark good or evil.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Ballistic

Another good thing about characters who have a lot of grey area, is that they seem to get to say all the good lines. The following quote, for example, has become one of my favorites because it showcases the personality of a gray character.

"Ain't logical. Cuttin' on his own face, rapin' and murdering - Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid. But these Reavers... last ten years they show up like the bogeyman from stories. Eating people alive? Where's that get fun?"

I wouldn't exactly call that remark good or evil.

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At least they let him carry grenades after that.

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Indeed... and FWIW, I'd call the crew of Serenity (especially Mal and Jayne) classic examples of Chaotic Neutral behaviour: no time for the law, willing to do almost anything to survive and get at least a little ahead of their troubles. Mal's few remaining principles might give him some (often faint) Good tendencies; about the only thing keeping me from calling Jayne C/E is the fact that, while he was out for himself first, last and always, he was never actively cruel about it or seemed to take any real pleasure out of screwing the others (c.f. episode: Ariel). To me, evil has always implied taking a certain active enjoyment in (causing) others' misfortunes. YMMV.

Staying with the Serenity movie but getting back towards the topic of villains, The Operative should be enshrined as the icon of the 'perfect' literary villain. He was intelligent, insightful, methodical, ruthless, and in his own way honourable, reasonable and even compassionate... but as both Inara and Shepherd Book pointed out, the trait which made him the most dangerous was his motivation: he knowingly, willingly committed horrible acts because he genuinely believed what he did was for the greater good. He believed that the Alliance was the sole arbiter of everything that is Good and Right in the 'verse, that anything he did to protect the Alliance (no matter how vile) was ultimately a 'good' thing and that anything which threatened the stability of the Alliance (included a brutalised, psychologically shattered seventeen-year-old girl) was 'evil'.

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but put into game terms the above smacks to me of a Lawful Neutral sort of mindset - and if *he* had ever put it into game terms, he might have even called himself a slightly bloody-handed LG.

Remember, every man is the hero of his own story. And it wasn't until Mal aired the Alliance's dirty laundry that The Operative realised that the status quo he fought to defend, the 'perfect world' he murdered to create and preserve... was an illusion. The status quo was created by a Parliament populated not by high-minded, selfless, flawless paragons of honourable statecraft looking out for the greater good, but rather by venal, self-serving men and women who chose to cover up their worst mistakes (and all the bodies which stemmed from them) rather than falling on their swords for them. He had devoted his entire existence to imposing a 'perfect world', a 'world without sin', onto people who had either been too busy surviving to aspire to such lofty goals... or who had already realised that such a thing cannot and could never be imposed from the outside - only built from within.

My two silver talons on the matter - and possibly just as 'valuable' as Zhentish coin in these parts.

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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Good night... oh, and Erik, I didn't want the 'heroes' to be rapists and child molesters... I may have a vivid, in some cases even wild, imagination, but I could not imagine writing something from the PoV of one of these types of ppl.

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In general, I am against the death penalty, with rapists and child molesters I make an exception. These are things so evil, in my eyes, that I cannot even find a 'reasonable' explanation for something like this, much less wanting to research the topic to try to get into the mind of someone like that.

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The victims is typically not even around long enough for you to build any sympathy for them what so ever. I have known a few victims as well through the years and the shows do the real pain absolutely no justice (odd way to word that I suppose). The poor depiction can almost be a slap in the face to people that have gone through it.

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Everyone wants something. Fiction is born of the fact that what people want are different things, and those objectives conflict with one another.

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Originally posted by PeterArcher

Everyone wants something. Fiction is born of the fact that what people want are different things, and those objectives conflict with one another.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Those are pretty strong feelings, and I respect your assertions very much. Myself, I define evil as inflicting harm, purposefully, upon another person, at any degree.

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The secondary motive of my comment was to narrow our focus here. I have, indeed, come across some people who advocate having heroes that are that vile, that remorseless, and that, well, EVIL. I wanted to see if we have any of those folks here. Do we?

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I personally feel that having a hero who has committed such acts and deals with them sensitively, in the course of the novel, can indeed be really, really interesting, and show us a lot. As an example from fiction. . .



***SPOILER for the movie versions of Bourne Identity, Bourne Supremacy***



The character we know as Jason Bourne was once a cold, emotionless, cruel killer. And in those films -- particularly the second -- we see how it has torn apart his life.

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Everyone wants something. Fiction is born of the fact that what people want are different things, and those objectives conflict with one another.

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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Guess that's why I enjoy Drizzt's introspection so much.

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Originally posted by Winterfox

It might have been enjoyable had it not been repetitive, drawn out, and sounded so obviously like a meandering teenager's. And has all the subtlety of a siege weapon. Not to mention that it's not "struggles" so much as juvenile "me, me, me, pity me, all woes are caused by me, the world revolves around me, me, me, ME!" whining.

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Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

I've always thought that one of the interesting things about the Star Wars films is that so little effort is made to justify the assertion that the Empire is fundamentally evil. We're just supposed to take George Lucas's word for it. Admittedly, we see the Empire using harsh measures to fight the Rebellion, but there's no actual demonstration that it rules oppressively when it isn't chasing Rebels.
The Ewoks, on the other hand, were prepared to eat other sentient beings, and I've always regretted that we don't actually see them feasting on dead Stormtroopers at the end of Return of the Jedi.

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Of course, I admit I'm being silly applying this kind of analytical thinking to Star Wars. Obviously, the charm of the story doesn't derive from or depend on it making logical sense.

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