| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 11:33:50
|
Good day,
this is my first post here. I've been lurking on these boards for a while and now, finally, decided to join. So...Hello, lads and lasses. And well met.
All right now to the first question; a day of firsts for me 
In WOTSQ the souls of Lolth's followers form a line to her new Demonweb Pits, through the Astral plane. In Prince of Lies, however, it is said that the soul of the departed appear on the fugue plane and are taken from there to the respective god's plane.
This, I thought, was the same for every being.
In War now I was under the impression that the souls of Lolth's faithful had remained on the Astral Plane and were lead to the Demonweb Pits by Lolth's call.
Are there different rules/laws for the various parts of the pantheon? It wouldn't make any sense since all the gods were banished to Faerūn during the Time of Troubles.
Also, if the Fugue plane is for everyone why should Lolth be able to torment the false of faithless? They'd wander into Kelemvor's wall or the city (forgot the name, as I am at work now and cannot look it up).
If those rules had to be obeyed by every deity none of them could hand out a non-stop ticket to 'heaven or hell'. Those who turned away from Lolth's faith or any other would either be judged False or Faithless, depending on the situation.
What is going on here???
|
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 07:11:08
|
| Hmmm...by the lack of replies it seems I am not the only one clueless on this matter... hehehe |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
 |
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 08:34:13
|
The Fugue Plane is sort of a transitionary stop where the dead followers(petitioners) of the various gods stop at and await the arrival of their patron deities' servants or in rare cases, their patron deity themselves to come pick them up and take them to their deities' home plane where they are destined to be.
Lolth torture the poor souls on the Wall of Faithless? Nope, the Faithless souls who have no patron deity are being punished by the Lord of the Dead-Lord Kelemvor, by being hung on the endless wall where the special motar that makes up the wall "degrade" them slowly and painfully. The False are those who sort of halfway during their lives lost faith in their patron deities and are being punished to kind of eternal slave duty in the City of the Dead in Kelemvor's realm. Also, Kelemvor does allow the devils to torture some souls as well in his domain(check FRCS)
The Fugue Plane is a plane that is supervised and monitored by Lord Kelemvor as part of his duties, here the Fugue Plane, the faithful souls await their deities' servants arrival to pick them up. If I am not wrong, all the souls of the faithful regardless of what faith will come to this transitionary stop first before going to the places destined for them. Even in the Time of Troubles, the rules were kind of followed, where the souls of the faithful lingered (rather impatiently) for their deities to come take them up, which happened in the end of The Avatar Trilogy Book 3: Waterdeep). I am very certain the deities do follow some rules regarding the souls of their faithful, they are supposed to send their servants on a regular basis to the Fugue Plane to collect the souls of the Faithful and take them to the deities homeplane, so you can expect that a rival deity cannot hit out at his/her rival followers or there may be chaos (though this rule was flouted by Cyric in Book 4 of the Avatar novels).
quote:
Are there different rules/laws for the various parts of the pantheon? It wouldn't make any sense since all the gods were banished to Faerūn during the Time of Troubles.
Generally, I assume that the deities of the Pantheons are expected to uphold their jobs and do their jobs as expected of them, sort of kinda maintain the balance, don't ignore their mortal followers and don't be greedy for more portfolios or want to change your portfolios or status(which was the main cause for the banishment of all the gods during the Time of Troubles by Lord Ao.) |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 08:59:15
|
Thanks for the reply, Shadovar.
I'm aware of the rules and who 'rules' the Fugue Plane. My confusion was regarding the contradiction in War of the Spider Queen. It was my impression that the Faithful of Lolth live under the assumption that those who become Faithless will be tortured by Lolth.
If this were true the Fugue Plane and the City of Dead was of no concern to them. Under this assumption the Drow Pantheon, at least those Faithful to Lolth, would ignore the Fugue Plane and the City of Dead and directly move their Faithful/Faithless/False to the Demonweb Pits to be judged there. If that was the case Ao's decrees are void for Lolth, and this would imply there is a difference in the Law of Ao, which would in turn imply that the non-human pantheons play by different rules. Under these circumstances they could have ignored the Time of Troubles.
But since they were also banned from the 'heavens' this does not seem to be the case.
Has there been an alteration to the rule? Or did Lolth's Faithful during the Silence remain on the Fugue Plane for the entire time of her being on sabbatical and moved to the Demonweb Pits via Astral Plane after Lolth's Silent ended? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 22:15:38
|
This whole mess is why I have ruled, in my own campaign, that only followers of the Faerunian pantheon (Mystra, Kelemvor, Sune, etc.) go to the Fugue Plane. Let's face it: the Faerunian pantheon is a human pantheon, whith a few half-elves sprinkled throughout, a few halflings (Tymora) and a few gnomes (Gond).
Having the Fugue Plane cater only to half-elves and humans (i.e. worshippers of the Faerunian pantheons) make more sense. This way, elves can still go straight to Arvandor as they die, and the dwarves can go have a beer with Moradin. IMC, every racial pantheon has a different transition method for the afterlife, and the one described in Realms literature only applies to humans and half-elves. I think this works better, as I could not envision a long line of humans rubbing shoulders with orcs, goblins and elves... 
[NOTE: in my campaign, Tymora and Gond are not only known by different names to the Hin and Forgotten Folk, but are also separate gods that belong to the Hin and Gnome pantheon, respectively... they started out as Tymora and Gond, and still have a direct empathic link to these deities, but they act completely separately and are devoted to their Hin and Gnome followers entirely] |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 22:35:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
This whole mess is why I have ruled, in my own campaign, that only followers of the Faerunian pantheon (Mystra, Kelemvor, Sune, etc.) go to the Fugue Plane. Let's face it: the Faerunian pantheon is a human pantheon, whith a few half-elves sprinkled throughout, a few halflings (Tymora) and a few gnomes (Gond).
Having the Fugue Plane cater only to half-elves and humans (i.e. worshippers of the Faerunian pantheons) make more sense. This way, elves can still go straight to Arvandor as they die, and the dwarves can go have a beer with Moradin. IMC, every racial pantheon has a different transition method for the afterlife, and the one described in Realms literature only applies to humans and half-elves. I think this works better, as I could not envision a long line of humans rubbing shoulders with orcs, goblins and elves...
As do I, and if I was going to use the Faithless and False, Kel would only judge the Faithless and False of the Faerun pantheon and not the Faithless and False of the whole world/continents/Realmspace. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 02:33:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As do I, and if I was going to use the Faithless and False, Kel would only judge the Faithless and False of the Faerun pantheon and not the Faithless and False of the whole world/continents/Realmspace.
If the Faerūnian pantheon would only be responsible for the Faerūnian humans why does Mystra check the entire Weave? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 02:50:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As do I, and if I was going to use the Faithless and False, Kel would only judge the Faithless and False of the Faerun pantheon and not the Faithless and False of the whole world/continents/Realmspace.
If the Faerūnian pantheon would only be responsible for the Faerūnian humans why does Mystra check the entire Weave?
Because the Weave only exists in Realmspace or Toril/Faerun. It doesn't exist in the afterlife and thus, the "human" deity of the dead/death should not have control over the souls of the beings that do not worship in the Faerun pantheon when there are perfectly fit deities of the dead/death in the other pantheons that can judge thier own Faithless and False.
This is no way, shape, or form the same as Mystra controling the Weave in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun.
But we've, on these boards, have had this debate before. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 03:12:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Because the Weave only exists in Realmspace or Toril/Faerun. It doesn't exist in the afterlife and thus, the "human" deity of the dead/death should not have control over the souls of the beings that do not worship in the Faerun pantheon when there are perfectly fit deities of the dead/death in the other pantheons that can judge thier own Faithless and False.
This is no way, shape, or form the same as Mystra controling the Weave in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun.
But we've, on these boards, have had this debate before. :)
I fear that looking for that debate will be a long, long process.
I understand what you mean and I agree. It's just strange to see it that way when you look at Cynosure (sp?) where all the gods of the pantheons appear, and the ToT where all the gods got the cheap ticket to Faerūn/Toril.
One would assume that the laws of False/Faithless were established by Ao for one reason or another.
If Lolth claims she will torture her faithless after they die, why would these souls even go to the Demonweb Pits? And wouldn't followers of Vaeraun and Elistraee be Faithless from her point of view? I doubt there is a neutral Drow deity who could mediate here...
Mace (who really should go to bed now) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 03:20:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I fear that looking for that debate will be a long, long process.
I understand what you mean and I agree. It's just strange to see it that way when you look at Cynosure (sp?) where all the gods of the pantheons appear, and the ToT where all the gods got the cheap ticket to Faerūn/Toril.
One would assume that the laws of False/Faithless were established by Ao for one reason or another.
If Lolth claims she will torture her faithless after they die, why would these souls even go to the Demonweb Pits? And wouldn't followers of Vaeraun and Elistraee be Faithless from her point of view? I doubt there is a neutral Drow deity who could mediate here...
Mace (who really should go to bed now)
This is also one of the reasons why I dislike the ToT's and the concept of the Faithless and False. :) It didn't exist in 1e material and in Ed's version until the concept of AO, the Faithless, and False was added by TSR for the ToT's events.
Oh well. :)
Which is why I don't use those events in my version but if I was going to, then the worshippers of the other pantheons would not be judged by the Faerun deity if those mortals did not worship anyone in that pantheon.
And this is my last post about this, because I tend to get a bit argumentive about this but the other three posts can be found:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4862&SearchTerms=faithless
And
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3989&SearchTerms=faithless
And
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4402&SearchTerms=faithless |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Mar 2006 03:45:33 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Fugue Plane...
