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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 23:59:39
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With all of the problems that WOTC keeps having with fine tuning Polymorph, something occured to me when the spelled out the issue. Why would someone have access to all of the forms that appear in a new monster manual or other product?
An explanation: When new cleric spells come out (or other divine spells) I generally don't let a player have them right away. They still have to have a cleric or other caster that knows how to pray for the spell show them. They don't have to roll a spellcraft check or anything, but since its new, someone has to tell them the spell exists and how to pray for it. This controls new elements being introduced into the game.
My questions is, why not come up with a check, similar to the knowlage checks associated with getting information about a monster, that is needed to know the creature well enough to be able to mimic it with polymorph? Common PC races could be so common as to not even need a check, and creatures like orcs, goblins, and the like nearly so, but the more exotic a creature is, and the farther it is from the creature casting the spells own species it is, the harder the check would be.
So, does this make any sense to anyone?
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 00:35:22
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| Yes. However, it's a very inelegant solution. I think they've made the right choice, personally, having seen the replacement for polymorph in such spells as body of war in the Spell Compendium. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 00:47:05
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If I any word can accurately describe me, its inelegant . . .  |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 19 Feb 2006 00:47:22 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 16:41:01
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Honestly, I was actually having a pretty good time thinking about this now. Okay, in my campaign, I have the PCs conjure what they can get with a "Summon" spell before they ever enter combat, to show that they have made contact with the entity and can successfully use it, and as such, it gives them a chance to write down stats for the thing before they use it. If they want to have more than one summon, thats fine, they can keep summoning out of combat to make contacts as well, but each time, they get the stats for the creature they summoned, and if they never did, its not on their list to be available to summon.
Now, jump over to polymorph. So far the druid in the group has only changed into animals, so this problem hasn't really come up. Him turning into a hawk or a bear and having been raised in Eveningstar doesn't seem like too much of a streach. But if the polymorph connundrum ever comes up, I think I am going to revise my campaign rules document to have polymorph handled like summonings.
The war troll that they keep mentioning in the articles would work like this . . . if the character out of combat wants to try and see if he can turn into a War Troll, he can make a knowlage, nature check and if he gets a 27 or higher, he knows enough about it to turn into it. But here is the big but . . . in my campaign, where the characters are, there are no War Trolls (have any of you seen any in Mistledale . . . neither have I). So they would have to have a good idea on what the creature was based on in character knowlage.
If they tried to take on a form they had never practiced "on the fly" I think I would bump up the difficulty of the knowlage check. Not to mention I might actually call for a separate knowlage check just to see if they had heard of a monster in the first place, then a second check to see if they know enough about it to actually change into it. In the case of the War Troll, they would have to make one check, a DC 22, to see if they had ever heard of one, then another one, DC 32, to see if they had enough retained knowlage to turn into one.
Where are my DCs coming from? The base to know about a monster is 10 + the hit dice of the monster, and +5 to the DC to learn something useful. Outside of combat, I will assume that "something useful" can be streched into enough useful information figure out how to shape shift into one. They can ask around, look up information in books and the like. In combat, "somthing useful" is usually about what they might be weak against, what DR they might have, etc., and on the fly they only learn one item like this per 5 points over the check DC they make their roll by.
Is this a bit cluncky, yes. On the other hand, most of it is to encourage the PCs to take some time, in character but out of combat, to practice spells, which makes much more sense from a RPG point of view to me. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 17:38:34
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The problem I have with a knowledge check is that the caster does not really need to know the creature to assume its form.
PC: "I read about a regenerating undead troll, I have 15 ranks in knowledge"
DM: "The DC check is 35"
PC: *rolls dice and gets 20*
*20+5+ skill focuse + Int adjustment, equal 35"
If a limit should be made, it should be based on actual knowledge of the form wanted to be assumed.
you fought with an orc you earn some knowlege points, talk to them you earn some points, study them form afar you earn some points, live with them you earn some points, etc.
After achieveing a certain amount of points (perhaps in part depending on HD) you are sucessful in casting the spell.
Down side of course is more bookkeeping.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 18:17:25
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| I think it just comes down to how "realistic" you want your campaign to be. If you don't want to bother with keeping track of which creatures your characters have met or which ones they have spent time studying, then you can just have them perform the polymorph with no further ado. I, personally, like things a little more "realistic" in my campaign. I use DR for armour, and other optional rules which I believe make more sense. It just depends on what the flavour of your campaign is.. Variety is the spice of life. |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 02:21:10
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It is not how "realistic" it is, it does come to how believivable it is. Each has to postulate that magic is common, something that is not real. Then try to put together a believeble way that magic works with a level system.
One has to suspend reality, but in such a way it is believable.
Merlin becoming a germ in one of the Disney films might be believable, but certainly was not real. Merlin if he existed at al would not know about germs. It was an an example of a real soluction in a mage battle, but not a believible one.
Pehaps the best answer for polymorph is to say it does not exist in any of the ways TSR and/or WotC have presented it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 02:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Down side of course is more bookkeeping.
Exactly; the Mark of Heroes release made some very good points about this and how polymorph results in a lot of slowdowns of play. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 07:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Down side of course is more bookkeeping.
Exactly; the Mark of Heroes release made some very good points about this and how polymorph results in a lot of slowdowns of play.
Which is why as a Standard Policy in ALL Games that my Group plays. The only person Allowed to have an Open Monster Book at the Table is the DM.
Unless a player as a Valid Reason to open said Book(s) and looking for a monster to summon or to take the shape of, isn't a Valid Reason.
However to get the stats of said creature after summoning/assuming form is. |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 06:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It is not how "realistic" it is, it does come to how believivable it is. Each has to postulate that magic is common, something that is not real. Then try to put together a believeble way that magic works with a level system.
One has to suspend reality, but in such a way it is believable.
I think that you may be splitting hairs a bit there. When I used the term "realistic" in regards to the polymorphing issue, I was stating that it is more acceptable, even in a fantasy world, that a person would have to possess some knowledge of a creature before being able to accurately imitate it. I would find it more "realistic" or "believable", to use your term, that an elven sorcerer from the High Forest could accurately polymorph into a unicorn, as opposed to a polar bear. Although we are corresponding about a fictitious talent relating to an inhabitant of a fantasy world, I think that it is a question of "realism", or "believability", and what degree of it you want in your campaign.  |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 09:59:38
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Well, I for one look forward to a world without the Spreadsheet Druid.
I can't take the random hit point totals and a character sheet so complicated that it can ONLY be played on a laptop.
While I'm buying a mighty laptop, it should be noted that it was NOT my intention to devote an entire Excel file to figuring out how many hit points I have when I turn into creatures X, Y, and Z. The old rules were a NIGHTMARE.
Now you can focus on roleplaying your druid instead of bookkeeping. And that's just fine with me.
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 08:35:59
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A player should not have access to all the creatures listed in the Monster Manuel, regardless of the built in restrictions (such as they are) for the Polymorph Chain in the Player’s Handbook.
The 3.5 rules spell out quite clearly which knowledge skills relate to which creature types/categories, so I think it’s not only fair but entirely logical to impose knowledge checks.
If a player fails, they can try again after they level up.
Note I also think if a player has encountered/battled a creature that he could potentially Polymorph into, then the DC ought to be significantly lower.
Also, if the player already tried and failed to become a creature before ever encountering it, then he ought to get a second try at becoming the creature after he/she encounters it, without having to wait to level up first.
In my opinion this drives characters to adventure/explore, because the easiest way to ‘win’ a new form is to encounter it.
For some players/DM’s it’s fine to crack the MM open at the game table and ponder all the cool creatures a player could Polymorph into, for other games that’s taboo because the DM limits player resources to the PHB and/or it ruins suspension of disbelief for everyone if the Wild Elf Druid from the jungles north of Halruaa knows how to turn into a Polar Bear.
Depends on playing style, really.
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 26 Feb 2006 08:37:47 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 20:38:33
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I find this debate over polymorph to be very interesting. I don't generally have this problem in my game because of the 'flavor' elements that I hedge around magic.
Teleportis rarely used in my game for simple traveling, mostly it is used for escape. While wizards are good and capable of using it, there is a stigma attached to it not only because of the very real possibility of teleporting into a solid object but also because of the unknown ramifications of causing physical bodies to penetrate time/space repeatedly over the course of one's life time. NPC wizards that do a good deal of teleporting in my game tend to be a little 'off,'and that X factor dissuades most characters from wanting to teleport overmuch.
As for Polymorph, Realmslore (and the greater bulk of generic D&D lore) are replete with individuals that suffer from the side-effects of 'botched' polymorphing (as a few of the waiters at the Society of Stalwart Adventurers could tell you). These sort of 'urban-legends' and oral traditions in arcane circles dissuade most from using the spell, and especially using the spell to become something unfamiliar. (As I pointed out to my PC's, yes, the Simbul changes into a raven from time to time, but how old is she? who was her teacher? and do you ever see her changing into anything more exotic? Just think about that for awhile...) Mechanically, I use a solution very similar to Knight Errant's. Instead, however, of using Knowledge (Nature) to determine if it is an available form, I use a different skill.
I use, what I refer to as, Prestige Skills, and it all started with concentration. After you have 10 ranks in concentration, you have the ability to take ranks in the Prestige Skill: Deep Concentration. I won't go into what deep concentration is (its very neat, I'm very proud of it), but the relevant check that I have them make is related to knowledge (dungeoneering). It is the prestige skill Knowledge (Monster Biology and Anatomy). This prestige knowledge skill also, very conveniently, supplies a mechanical reason for why wizards and sages are always hiring adventurers to capture monsters/retrieve monster parts.
Instituing Prestige Knowledge Skills also gave me the ability to set Sages apart from uppity Adventurer Bards and Wizards.
I know that this reply is sort of long, but if anyone wants more information on my prestige skills, post here, and I'll start a new thread for it. No need wasting people's time if they're not interested, after all.
-Walker |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 20:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I know that this reply is sort of long, but if anyone wants more information on my prestige skills, post here, and I'll start a new thread for it. No need wasting people's time if they're not interested, after all.
-Walker
I'm quite interested; I've been looking for a system like that for a little while now. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 17:03:12
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| Hm . . . Walker, I'm not sure I would go with your ideas in full, though I must admit I have to spend some times mulling of them. However, I must say that you idea HAS sparked an idea with me, as to what might happen if someone misses their skill check and doesn't realize it, thus resulting in the mishaps that you point out (I had forgotten about that little snippet from the Ring of Winter, thanks for the reminder). |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 04:18:16
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| Walker, I like the sound of that "prestige skill" system and would enjoy reading more of it. I, for one, prefer a bit more "realism" in my campaign and find your in-house rule appealing. Please share! |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
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WOTC's Polymorph Predicament: Predicting Problems
