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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 08:24:33
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Does anyone know what happened with the netherese gods which went extinct ?
There were 10 : Amaunator, Jannath, Jergal, Kozah, Moander, Mystryl, Selune, Shar, Targus, Tyche.
Selune, Shar and Moander are still alive (Moander only until recently  )
Mystryl was replaced by Mystra after Karsus' debacle.
Jergal conceded his portofolio to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul.
Tyche was split between Tymora and Beshaba.
Does anyone know something about the others : Amaunator, Jannath, Kozah, Targus ? (Or at least some speculations  )
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6670 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 09:03:05
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Jannath is Chauntea.
Kozah is Talos.
Targus is Garagos.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 09:20:31
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| Amaunator "died" of Neglect and may well have been rolled into Lathander |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 10:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Jannath is Chauntea.
Kozah is Talos.
Targus is Garagos.
-- George Krashos
They simply had a name change ?  On the other hand, I wonder if there was not a reshaping of the pantheons by Ao after Karsus' debacle, since not only the deities are different, but their portofolios as well. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 12:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Amaunator "died" of Neglect and may well have been rolled into Lathander
Although At'ar worshipped by the Bedine seems to be a remnant of Amaunator... at least that is how I see it. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 12:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Amaunator "died" of Neglect and may well have been rolled into Lathander
One thing : how could have Amaunator died of neglect, since before the Time of Troubles the existence of the deities did not depend on their worshippers ?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 13:54:23
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That's because TSR retconed the effects of the Time of Troubles in the FR setting -- making deities dependent upon worshipper power in the past as well. It was during the time of Amaunator, before the retcon, that deities were not dependent upon the power drawn from worshippers... but the retcon did away with this. It had to be... otherwise Amaunator would never have actually died. TSR had to ensure the retcon would explain that.
Amaunator died of neglect -- which tells you that the power of worshipper faith was just as integral then as it is post-ToT. We know that people simply stopped worshipping him to the point where he could no longer maintain his "Keep of the Sun" with his divine energy and thus was forced to recede into the Astral.
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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Feb 2006 13:56:47 |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 16:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's because TSR retconed the effects of the Time of Troubles in the FR setting -- making deities dependent upon worshipper power in the past as well. It was during the time of Amaunator, before the retcon, that deities were not dependent upon the power drawn from worshippers... but the retcon did away with this. It had to be... otherwise Amaunator would never have actually died. TSR had to ensure the retcon would explain that.
Amaunator died of neglect -- which tells you that the power of worshipper faith was just as integral then as it is post-ToT. We know that people simply stopped worshipping him to the point where he could no longer maintain his "Keep of the Sun" with his divine energy and thus was forced to recede into the Astral.
But that contradicts the Avatar trilogy quite a lot... Hmmm, I wish all this game products would coordinate their movements...  |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 21:35:36
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| Little "shards" and such still pop up of Amaunator. At'ar, Lathander, etc. He's only "mostly" dead. Throughout the more recent sourcebooks, lines of Amaunator's clergy are still kicking around in Lathander's church. Though not nearly canon, there's a lot of references to Amaunator and his temples/artifacts in the Baldur's Gate games |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 22:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
Little "shards" and such still pop up of Amaunator. At'ar, Lathander, etc. He's only "mostly" dead. Throughout the more recent sourcebooks, lines of Amaunator's clergy are still kicking around in Lathander's church. Though not nearly canon, there's a lot of references to Amaunator and his temples/artifacts in the Baldur's Gate games
I think Lathander is a completely separate entity/deity from Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator was "reborn" as Lathander (or split - like Tyche - into At'ar and Lathander) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 23:29:41
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| Not to mention the fact that the idealogies of Lathander and Amaunator are quite different, at least to me. |
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--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 00:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Not to mention the fact that the idealogies of Lathander and Amaunator are quite different, at least to me.
I agree whole heartedly. Sure they are both gods of the sun but I think Lathander is Rebirth first and foremost, where Amaunator was the true Sun god. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 01:00:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
Little "shards" and such still pop up of Amaunator. At'ar, Lathander, etc. He's only "mostly" dead. Throughout the more recent sourcebooks, lines of Amaunator's clergy are still kicking around in Lathander's church. Though not nearly canon, there's a lot of references to Amaunator and his temples/artifacts in the Baldur's Gate games
I think Lathander is a completely separate entity/deity from Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator was "reborn" as Lathander (or split - like Tyche - into At'ar and Lathander)
Amaunator died before Lathander existed.
Eric has said that the sun god is a tripartite deity -- with three aspects which include a Dawn, Midday, and a Dusk aspect.
We know, thanks to Faiths & Avatars, that Amaunator died from a lack of worship. When he passed, Myrkul (bearing the dusk portfolio) was then the singular aspect of the sun that existed for a brief time in the Realms. Lathander is said to have come after that. So, that means that Lathander did not kill Amaunator because, quite simply, Lathander could not exist, or rather come into his own as a deity, until Amaunator had died.
What is interesting is that now Myrkul is also gone, that leaves Lathander as the only living aspect of the Sun, which means Amaunator could perhaps return or be reborn at some point in the future. Or, perhaps we will see a mortal "graduate" to the position, ascending to take Amaunator's place and the aspect of the Noonday sun.
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Unski
Acolyte
Finland
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 10:05:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's because TSR retconed the effects of the Time of Troubles in the FR setting -- making deities dependent upon worshipper power in the past as well. It was during the time of Amaunator, before the retcon, that deities were not dependent upon the power drawn from worshippers... but the retcon did away with this. It had to be... otherwise Amaunator would never have actually died. TSR had to ensure the retcon would explain that.
Amaunator died of neglect -- which tells you that the power of worshipper faith was just as integral then as it is post-ToT. We know that people simply stopped worshipping him to the point where he could no longer maintain his "Keep of the Sun" with his divine energy and thus was forced to recede into the Astral.
Wait, wait! I thought that I read somewhere that pre-ToT gods could die if they were forgotten nigh' completely, which sorta makes sense.
Belief, lack of it and so on. Or was that excatly the said retcon you mentioned? |
And that be the end of that story. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 10:24:02
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Interesting topic, deities and worshipers as it appears WotC indicates numbers of worshippers are not a complete indication of Divine rak. AO appears to have few (if any) worshippers (and what few he does/might have he grants nothing) and is still alive as far as we know.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 15:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Interesting topic, deities and worshipers as it appears WotC indicates numbers of worshippers are not a complete indication of Divine rak. AO appears to have few (if any) worshippers (and what few he does/might have he grants nothing) and is still alive as far as we know.
AO does NOT grant spells to his possible worshippers, so he does not have such. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 06:21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Interesting topic, deities and worshipers as it appears WotC indicates numbers of worshippers are not a complete indication of Divine rak. AO appears to have few (if any) worshippers (and what few he does/might have he grants nothing) and is still alive as far as we know.
Ao is a different story. He sets the rules that the regular gods follow. He's above those rules.
Ao has few, if any worshippers left. The ones he had were in Waterdeep, and only sprang up immediately after the ToT ended. The fact that Ao never paid any attention to his followers made many of them lose interest.
Ao seems to not want to be known to the inhabitants of the Realms -- his name, wherever it was written down, has faded and become unreadable. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 07:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Interesting topic, deities and worshipers as it appears WotC indicates numbers of worshippers are not a complete indication of Divine rak. AO appears to have few (if any) worshippers (and what few he does/might have he grants nothing) and is still alive as far as we know.
Ao is a different story. He sets the rules that the regular gods follow. He's above those rules.
That's what I would've thought. And the Realmslore agrees. Creator gods are meant to be something other than just your regular "run of the mill" Forgotten Realms deity. If they were reliant on worshippers . . . the retcon would have left Ao as a non-extistent entity.
quote:
Ao has few, if any worshippers left. The ones he had were in Waterdeep, and only sprang up immediately after the ToT ended. The fact that Ao never paid any attention to his followers made many of them lose interest.
And as I recall, these Ao worshippers really haven't received any further attention in 3e Realmslore . . . except as notes when the outcome of the ToT is mentioned.
quote:
Ao seems to not want to be known to the inhabitants of the Realms -- his name, wherever it was written down, has faded and become unreadable.
Or maybe even uncomprehensible. Maybe Ao is simply something that cannot be properly conceived by the mortal mind and that is the reason why worshipping FR mortals have little actual affect on Ao. Not only is he beyond it, but what mortals commonly believe to be Ao, may be nothing more than a sliver of the creator god's essence.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 08:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So, that means that Lathander did not kill Amaunator because, quite simply, Lathander could not exist, or rather come into his own as a deity, until Amaunator had died.
While it's reasonably accurate to figure Lathander couldn't have come into his own as a deity until after Amaunator had 'passed', I don't think it's accurate to figure Lathander didn't exist....if Lathander is one aspect of a Tri-Partite deity that included Amaunator and (perhaps) Myrkul.
I think it is plausible for Lathander to have had some effect on Amaunator's reign if Amaunator became so week the other essences (Myrkul/Lathander) were able to come to the fore.
With deities IMO it's better not to think in too linear a fashion. Didn’t Eric say something to that effect, once? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 16:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
While it's reasonably accurate to figure Lathander couldn't have come into his own as a deity until after Amaunator had 'passed', I don't think it's accurate to figure Lathander didn't exist....if Lathander is one aspect of a Tri-Partite deity that included Amaunator and (perhaps) Myrkul.
Maybe the aspect of Lathander that existed previously wasn't a form of Lathander that we'd acknowledge as Lathander today.
In other words... the Lathander we know simply wasn't the exact same Lathander of the Tri-Partite deity. But became as such over time and after Amaunator passed.
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 00:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I think it is plausible for Lathander to have had some effect on Amaunator's reign if Amaunator became so week the other essences (Myrkul/Lathander) were able to come to the fore.
Are you suggesting that worship of Amaunator shifted to this pre-aspect of Lathander and that this was the reason why Amaunator eventually became "neglected"?
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Volo
Seeker
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 01:38:52
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| And for that matter, exactly how is it that Amaunatori worshippers amongst the Bedine ended up shifting their worship to At'ar, who does NOT grant spells, and it's said (in Faiths and Avatars) does not even exist? I mean, something cataclysmic had to happen to make them forget the 'real' sun god, especially considering that they live in the one location on Toril where worship of a sun god makes the most sense. So his death by neglect is, in my mind, suspect at best. |
Volo's misunderstood. He's not an idiot. He's a FLAMING idiot! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 04:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I think it is plausible for Lathander to have had some effect on Amaunator's reign if Amaunator became so week the other essences (Myrkul/Lathander) were able to come to the fore.
Are you suggesting that worship of Amaunator shifted to this pre-aspect of Lathander and that this was the reason why Amaunator eventually became "neglected"?
Amaunator was largely abandoned as a deity of worship after Netheril fell. The dawn aspect of the sun did indeed rise to prominence in an incarnation of Lathander after -339DR -- when Netheril fell. So perhaps there is some "divine worship" bleed over between the two.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 04:46:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Volo
And for that matter, exactly how is it that Amaunatori worshippers amongst the Bedine ended up shifting their worship to At'ar, who does NOT grant spells, and it's said (in Faiths and Avatars) does not even exist? I mean, something cataclysmic had to happen to make them forget the 'real' sun god, especially considering that they live in the one location on Toril where worship of a sun god makes the most sense. So his death by neglect is, in my mind, suspect at best.
LEoF notes that there is some who believe Amaunator survives as the deity revered by the Bedine as At'ar. But it is not definitive.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 04:51:13
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| I would also venture to say that part of why the Bedine don't recive spells is because they don't ask. They aren't too keen on any kind of magic, divine or arcane. |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 21:57:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The SageWhat is interesting is that now Myrkul is also gone, that leaves Lathander as the only living aspect of the Sun, which means Amaunator could perhaps return or be reborn at some point in the future. Or, perhaps we will see a mortal "graduate" to the position, ascending to take Amaunator's place and the aspect of the Noonday sun.
My home campaign has Amaunator resurrected as a direct response to the return of the Shadovar.
I'd go into detail, but it's my home campaign, and therefore doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the "truth" of things.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I would also venture to say that part of why the Bedine don't recive spells is because they don't ask. They aren't too keen on any kind of magic, divine or arcane.
I concur on this one... or even if they received spells, they'd never cast them or acknowledge that they'd received them, so it'd be moot.
And, given all the writeups I've seen on the Bedine and At'ar, it doesn't sound like At'ar is actually venerated. I've always read that At'ar is more feared/hated as a force of nature... kind of like Umberlee and Talos. You do you "Goonygoogoo" ritual to make the sun not evaporate your oasis or burn your face off, rather than to say, "Dear Sun God, you're my kind of deity." |
Edited by - GungHo on 28 Feb 2006 22:05:42 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 06:54:21
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In my game, I am introducing a cult of Horus-Re proselytizers that have left Mulhorand to propagate the worship of Horus-Re throughout the rest of Faerûn.
They refer to their god as Amun-At-Horus-Re (or sometimes as Amun-Re). They claim that Horus-Re is Amaunator reborn, that he is the true god of the high sun. Though they are yet a small group, their charismatic message is winning over some converts from the church of Lathander.
Specifically this message is appealing to some Sunmasters, the faction (prestige class) from Lost Empires that is still loyal to Amaunator. Although most Lathanderites dismiss the idea or even find it heretical. I doubt the mainstream Horus-Re clergy are too keen on the idea either.
I don't know where this will go, but it is a fun idea to explore. One of my players is a priest of Horus-Re and this ties in with a plot thread I am trying to weave in for him. I will see how it develops. |
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Netherese gods
