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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 03:19:54
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I just wanted to ask the other DMs out there how they tend to structure their campaigns. I tend to try and let the players come up with characters they want to play, with just a few tweaks (dancing around LA races, etc). Then once we have a party that makes sense together and in the region they are in, I make up some longer term plots to get them involved in, and some shorter term ones as well. The point is that they constantly have something to do and a semi-major quest going on, but if one of them dies or leaves the campaign, then it doesn't disrupt anything.
I ask this because now that I have passed the DM baton for a few months to another DM, I have noticed he has a completely different style. He has a main storyline that the PCs are suppose to move toward completing, and we have to choose what role we play in the story (i.e. the captain of the guard, who is likely to be either human or half-elf, fighter or paladin, or the prince, who is either half-elf or human, and a sorcerer). While its intruiging, and should be fun, its definately not the route I would have gone.
And I know from reading Monte Cook's column in Dungeon that there is a kind of middle ground, but Monte seems to assume that a campaign must have an ultimate "point" or its not a campaign. I disagree, as I see the "point" being following the characters lives as adventurers.
So, I ask of my fellow DMs, do you have slighly less epic quests that revolve around the goals and whims of the PCs as they develop, do you come up with complex goals and storylines with established roles, or do you have an ultimate "point" with a definate end and a main villain in mind?
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Sadonayerah Odrydin
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 04:30:53
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Me, personally, in my current campaign, I have a ultimate goal in mind and a villain. The characters are gathered to work together and then fight in a war against some powerful red wizards. (who are in league with drow). yeah. long story...
In my next campaign, I'm going to start the characters off with where their backgrounds leave off, tying it all together when they meet to travel the Sword Coast battling pirates and eventually ending up on Evermeet for yet another battle. This one will be more with what the PCs want to do kind of thing. It will have an end, but no main villain or anything. (still working the bugs out of that one. if anyone has any advice, feel free to PM me or email me).
I guess I normally structure the campaign around a main plot/villain. That's my preferred choice. |
"What's that," asked Mogget.
"Sardines," said Sam. "I knew they were standard rations, so I got a few tins for you."
"What are sardines?" Moggest asked suspiciously. "And why is there a key? Is this some sort of Abhorsen joke?"
Abhorsen by Garth Nix
"What you made a vampire...Pomeranian?!" --Hannibal King from Blade Trinity
~Sadie |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 04:46:54
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Hmm _Red Arrow, Black Shield_ was a realm shaking module in BD&D the DM advice was let the PCs do what they want, though of course try to get them involved in the story with plot hooks. Failure to start to form alliance against the invasion from the West starts to impact where they can safely go. Never got to DM it because never got a group together to play it. This might be the middle road or at least one example of it.
The world can not stop and go depending on what the PCs do, nce they are world travelers things can happen 1,000 miles away that in weeks or months effect them is some direct way. An earthquake might disrupt trade routes, a blight coud effect food supply, and so on. Things they might have been able to reduce the upheaval if they react to the first signs of problems. The PCs should be allowed to live their lives as they desire to do so. If thy do not care that the price of food goes up twice the amount, decide not to reply to a call to arms, things will happen in the world.
If you are playing low level, local campaigns you certainly can more tailor to the players PCs as to their desires and goals. If one wants to quest for a +1 sword he really does not need to know much of world events, in fact very unlikely able to effect world events except perhaps dying for the cause, buying times for others of greater power.
All in all the DM should keep aware of players desires as to type of play they wish to be involved in. However if they choose to or ecome world figures the DM should not change his world to suit the players vision of it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 04:48:00
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I like having the plots and schemes of villains planned out in advance but I would rather not try to plan what the plots and schemes of the PCs will be. I mean, there are PLAYERS involved, and one thing I've learned is that you can't predict to arbitrary accuracy what the PLAYERS will choose to do. So my opinion is that the most straight-forward thing to try is map out a world, populate it with adventure hooks (probably focusing on 1 or 2 main adventure hooks that you've fleshed out the best) and see how the players take it. Their actions may spawn whole new adventure ideas and potential plot twists.
As for the "goal" of the campaign, I think its good to have one or more potential "endings" (at least to the chapters of individual adventures- kill the villain, return the lost artifact, save the pixie princess, etc.), but its also fine for the overall point of the campaign to be seeing where the adventure takes everyone rather than trying to decide that ahead of time. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 05:00:16
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Well, in defense of the world moving forward . . . the PCs get news of the Phaerimm war in the North beseiging Evereska, they hear about the return of Shade and the ressurection of Bane. If they had wanted to march to Evereska and pitch in, then that is what I would have written the adventure about. Since they didn't, they hear about what happens from travelling bards and Harper aquaintances. I want them to feel like there is more going on in the world than they could possible follow up on, so that the world doesn't just feel like it revolves around them. I guess I kind of feel like if the PCs become THE force that has to defeat the evil lich king that WILL take over the Heartlands if THEY don't defeat him, then the world doesn't feel real. On the other hand, if they decide to look into the hypothetical lich king, then why should one of them not be related to one of the lich king's leutenants? Now that they have pursued the idea, they are tied to it, but not until they commit to wanting to follow this plot thread.
I guess I want the Realms to feel like this mile a minute, tons of power groups involved in everything kind of place, and if I made Boney the Dracolich the main villain, then I might be tempted to make all of the important villains of the campaign Cult of the Dragon adherants, and I would feel like I was leaving a lot out. Plus I feel like if I set something that should be the end of the campaign, and the PCs complete this task and want to keep going, in my mind, the campaign is kind of played out now. Which is not to say that I wouldn't have certain pinnacles that would be good stopping points if they agreed to retire or move on at that point.
This is really interesting though, pretty interesting to see other people's view on this. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 05:37:39
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Hello-
Well - in the campaign I am still working on - my players have (basicaly) made characters - and I have put some thought into plot hooks for each of them individually - as well as some over-arching things.
I was able to tie in some elements one player gave me in a written history - and the other two characters - while I don't have 'histories' like in the first case - I have some thoughts - and one of them is playing an elven Ranger - who comes from an old family of boyers & fletchers - snd he is out in the world looking to eitehr find 'new' techniques - or rediscover some 'lost' techniques for creating bows and/or arrows. So - hes adventuring for that reason - and I can work with that. The other one is a halfling - and heard stories from her uncle about 'adventuring' and is wandering to try and experience some of that herself.
I asked the players how They wanted the game to go - and it seemed unanimous that they wanted me to orchestrate what they were going to be doing. I still plan on making up general notes on several adventure hooks for early-on - but I think I have some ideas that will tie in all of them in the future - and also make use of the a main villian that I thought up. (But have as-yet statted out - as the 3.0/3.5 rules are somewhat new to me - being a 1/2 edition person previously - and not much practical experience in any of the 3.x versions...)
I think the main plot could even be too big for them to completely solve. KInda like a party getting twisted up w/ agents of the Cult of the Dragon - they can eliminate some - and cause trouble - but the organization will still be around....
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 08:08:33
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Well, my Realms works a little differently.
I like to make my PC's work for everything. You have to train for every level you gain. I'm not a big fan of going from level 1 to level 20 in 6 months. I saw this happen once, I never wanted to see it happen again.
In general, I try to make sure that it doesn't feel like five game months later, I'm the equal of Elminster, or Khelben, or one of the other chosen of Mystra, because that makes theme very screamy.
So training takes 3xlevel you attain days for a core class, and 4x level you attain for a prestige class. You can make DC 10 unmodified CON checks to cut the time down, but if you fail even ONCE, you have to do it ALL. That means that if you want to get level 20 in a class, assuming you can find someone of level 21 or higher to teach you, it will take you 80 days. If you train yourself, it will take 160 days, assuming it's a PRC level.
There are GP costs too, but those GP costs are largely meaningless.
Sometimes, I run an open arc where the PC's are free to take the actions that they want and I design the story around their background(s). This approach is a LOT of fun for the players, but for the DM? It really sucks, because it limits your own creativity.
The stories I prefer to run these days are stories about countries, nations, or themes that impact the Realms. I have a tendancy to run these past Kuje to make sure that they're in theme and that they match the source material.
Currently, I'm prepared to run a campaign about the Sythilissan Empire that has yet to start, that features this type of setup. I run a campaign in Impiltur that features this type of setup, and I run a campaign titled "The Terrible Revenge of Roungouze Haballanter" that uses this type of setup. (You can see the campaign journal of this at Paizo.com, it's funny. "Meatlock not leave post" is worth the price of the thread alone.) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 13:51:08
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Your phrasing is a false dichotomy: the story is what the PCs do, whether they're semi-passively undergoing a predesigned plot blueprint (which is a theoretical story at most) or driving events with their own plans.
The key thing is to discuss what kind of campaign you're going to have in advance. By and large there's no right and wrong here, except that
(a) often a good DM can make a basically prewritten plot framework more interactive or seemingly (i.e. experientially) interactive with just a little more thought and work;
(b) with the bustle of conflicting power groups and plural interlocking conspiracies that characterizes the Realms, it would be very difficult to DM a basically linear story that emerged convincingly (illusionistically) from the chaos of those interactions.
While I likely wouldn't run a campaign like your DM, if I had any trust (and if I didn't I wouldn't play at all) that they knew what they were doing, I'd probably go along with their style.
I certainly don't think a campaign needs a 'point' in terms of a teleontological conclusion, but it needs some kind of textural and thematic shape -- which can of course emerge during play as well as from design. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 16:06:46
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I have an overall plot idea that slowly changes due to PC's interests, goals and actions. At the end of every gaming session I send out an email with news and rumors. The PC's often go on a couple of side-quests off of these sound-bites, and there have been some fairly interesting changes in character goals.
The overall plot moves forward, and forms a backbone theme for the party, but they have the freedom to move on and do other things. By the time the party reaches about 7th or 8th level, they are actually interested in the overall plot, and tend to actively pursue it. Actively pursuing it doesn't mean they don't still go on side quests.
Right now they are discussing taking a short jaunt across the sea of fallen stars from Sembia to Starmantle. They have heard of pirates raiding the area, and they want to go and form a militia defense force. The plan is to defend and train the locals for 3-6 months before returning to Sembia.
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Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 17:00:46
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I always have a planned campaign arc, and at certain points in the campaign things are going to happen whether the players like it or not. However, how they react to events is entirely up to them. Sometimes they might decide they don't care, in which case the villain's plans advance and later on some other things will happen. Or they might take some action which forces the villain to respond to them. And sometimes things will be going on that have nothing to do with the main villain, or the PCs will decide to go off on an adventure of their own, and I try to have a few random adventures available for those circumstances.
As for restrictions on characters available to the players, I generally don't bother with them unless the particular campaign I'm running needs it. If I'm running a game of political intrigue on Evermeet, non-Elven characters aren't exactly appropriate. Normally though I let players come up with their own characters without restrictions, and work with them to find a way to fit them into my campaign. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 17:08:30
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| PC's live in a world, so events happen around them and without them. If they go off and follow up on the news of a ruined tower that has been been uncovered, then the plague on the other parts of the world might decimate the area that it went through. They hear news and tales from people, which might or might not be true. However, the PC's also have goals and they get to accomplish those as well when they feel they want to head off to work on finishing those goals. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 23:52:28
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The campaign Im currently running makes the party the "Defenders of the Dalelands" there isnt an evil overlord whose been causing them travel since 1st level. They started off fighting the Zhentarim in Raiders of Galaths roost and have since got into fights with the Vhaerun worshiping Drow, hunted down the Glabezu who killed the high priest in Battledale and there now doing City of the Spider Queen which will be parties last module.
I also ran the campaign in a "Do this then this then this" Format ie the PCs where led by the nose from one adventure to the next.
The next campaign is going to be more open where at each session the players will hear of a number of potential adventures then choose one. In the background things will happan that may result in the Adventures the PCs didnt being resolved with out them or the problem may get worse.
For example
1) A merchant puts out the word that he's looking for body guards to escort him to a near by city.
2)The PCs are apporached in a tavern by a man offering to sell them a map to a Dragons Hoard he claims the Dragon has already been slain so all the PCs need to do is go to the lair and the hoard is theirs
3)The Local lord issues a bounty for anyone who brings him the head of a Lizardfolk. The Lizardfolk in a near by swamp have begun raiding towns the Local lords lands.
The Players choose to do adventure 1 and escort the merchant. After they have completed th mission and returned to the Tavern they hear the following has happaned
1) A Dragon has appeared in the region raiding caravans and killing live stock (Another adventuring party bought the map and traveled to the Dragons lair. The map seller was wrong/lied (was he a con artist or a member of the Cult of the Dragon) and the Dragon was still there it slaughtered the NPC adventuring party and is now running amok.
2) Upon returning to the tavern the PCs encounter another adventuring party celebrating their victory over the lizard men. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 00:47:08
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I am involved in two very different games right now, and I'll take this opportunity to display them.
In the game which I am playing in, the whole thing started very mysteriously. The DM told us to roll some stats, get a general character concept, and then to record 100 percentile rolls and three d1000 rolls.
We had to wait for two weeks for him to tabulate his data.
When we started up, we started as 0th level characters with no class, and no memory beyond two years ago. We also exhibited strange abilities for which we had no explaination. Most of these seemed to be curses, and we were only aware of the ones that would have made themselves clear (example: my touch deals 2d6 points of damage to any plant life). Then, based upon the information that we had been given, we had to formulate a two year history (the two years that we remembered).
The DM explained that the first campaign (he shares Monte Cook's view that a campaign must have a goal) would be discovering the origin of these strange curses, the hidden benefits thereof, and why we have no memory of anything before two years ago. He explained that successfully completing the first campaign would likely take one year real time, and get us from level 0 to 20. The second campaign would deal with our reaction to those origins, and would likely take another year, and gain us 10 more levels. The third would deal with trying to live a normal life and take another year and another 10 levels whereupon he would be retiring these characters and handing over the reigns to another DM. We are completed session 29 last friday, I have a spiral notebook full of notes, we only are just beginning to discover our origins, and I'm having the time of my life.
This is an example of a game that includes long-term goals and plots, but focuses on character development and discovery.
The game that I'm beginning to DM is a two-stage game (like a two-stage rocket), it will begin as PBEM and develop into a table top game once the previously described game comes to an end.
I set general rules, and gave a region that the characters should originate from. We'll be beginning in 1365 in Cormyr and play will end around 1375 (the second stage should begin around 1368). The players will (ironically) begin as NPC's. That is to say that they will be living normal non-adventuresome lives separate and apart from each other. This will be the PBEM stage. They will be restricted to NPC classes (described in the DMG) for the first stage of the game. The point is to develop a sense of normalcy for the characters, and showing the unique customs of the region that they are end. In essence, we will be playing their background. This stage will not be totally devoid of adventure (lots of folks' parents die in written backgrounds, so why not here), but that won't be where the focus is. In 1368, events will thrust the players into a career of adventuring. This is when stage 2 begins. This will be a very typical, "oh, look there's a dungeon, bet its got monsters and gold!" part of the game. In the nomenclature of Monte Cook, this will be the Second Campaign for this group of adventurers. In 1371 they will be leaving the country of Cormyr to adventure in another land (as one of the hallmarks of Forgotten Realms is its great diversity), and will return to Cormyr at the end of 1372 around the time of Azoun's funeral. This would begin the 3rd Campaign, which is a campaign of socially responsible adventuring, putting Cormyr back together again.
The goal of this game (as in all of my games) is to help the players create dynamic character that change over the course of time. Secondarily, I want the players attached to a homeland, not one that they read about but one that they lived in. I want them to be heart broken when they return to the broken ruins of Cormyr and realize that it is forever changed. In showing the dynamic nature of the campaign, I hope to create a dynamic nature in character. I have no long term plots or villains. My point is that life is hard enough without villains and drive it home in a way that every player will feel inside of them. I want my players to be emotionally invested, I hope for tears at Azoun's funeral (I've moved players to tears before). I want them to explore how an adventurer evolves from an uncaring rogue hungry for danger into the respectable NPCs (like King Azoun) that populate the wonderful world around them.
Two different games, two different goals, but I hope they are both great.
I don't mean to conscript this thread, but can I get some feedback on these campaigns?
-Walker |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 01:01:29
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I prefer the option of allowing the PCs to control a large part of the campaign, but giving them something to do if they have nothing to do. (I sound like any boss I have known; "If you have nothing to do, I will find you something to do.")
I dislike the idea of a planned end of the campaign. If the group plays for a while, people tend to get attached to the characters. Then poof! it is over?
Complex storylines with people playing particular roles kinda bothers me, in that I don't want to be tied down and play a particular part. " I get to play the dukes stupid, clumsy brother again?" Too often, only one player is the hero and the star, and everyone else gets to play sidekick.
Of course, the group should be consulted first, asking how much input on their own storylines would be a good first step in a new campaign.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 02:04:30
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Walker . . . conscript away my good man . . .
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 02:25:55
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Walkerninja, both campaigns you mentioned sound very interesting. Is the first campaign you mentioned a 3.5 campaign set in the Realms?
And thanks to KEJR and other contributors to this thread for all the great ideas. |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 21:20:55
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As with everything else with FR, the computer game BG II is my guiding star when running a campaign. It goes like this:
1) When I start out with a new campaign, I start with picking a setting and theme. The two last was "Courtiers in Cormyr" and "Villains in Waterdeep". Not very fancy.
2) The players design their characters. I try to get them to develop some background about mentors, family and lovers.
3) I pick a couple of villains, and introduce the main story.
4) I develop subplots that focus on indiviual characters.
When I run the games I shoot for a good mix of personal and "story" quests, depending on timing and who's actually present at the table. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 02:14:58
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WalkerNinja, I will definately have some thoughts on your campaigns in a bit (didn't want to forget about your questions).
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Your phrasing is a false dichotomy: the story is what the PCs do, whether they're semi-passively undergoing a predesigned plot blueprint (which is a theoretical story at most) or driving events with their own plans.
I disagree (else I wouldn't have phrased it that way). The campaign my friend is running is one that he has run before. He does not make side quests based on different characters, or create new NPCs to interact with new PCs. What characters play the parts are irrelevant to the campaign, only that they be filled and played. I am not complaining about this, just stating that I would not be comfortable running a game like this.
My way of thinking is that D&D is like a collective story telling game, and when I am done with my part, its time for the players to tell their part of the story, and the rules and dice are there for when there are disputes or instances in the story were chance takes a role.
The campaign my friend is going to run is more like a play. Others have played the parts before us, and others may play after us. We might portray the part of the prince or the bodyguard more vividly or with more flair or more fun than another group, but ultimately, the story takes precedence over our characters. Unless its already part of the story, my family, friends, love interests, faith, personality quirks, etc, will only be window dressing. I am interested in seeing how such a campaign works out, and I do think it will be fun, but I must admit to feeling a bit confined as well. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 18:57:36
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Conlon,
The first game that I described is a 3.5 game, and is loosely set in the Realms. The DM never liked the idea of Spelljamming, but liked all of the different TSR campaigns. His solution was to have each of these worlds as continents on the same world. So, we have been to Faerun (my character is from there), but we've also gone to the Free City of Greyhawk, and are currently involved in a war in Rokugan (one of the pc's is asian and is an exact replica of one of the clans' emperors over there. For the longest we all thought that he was an escaped clone or something, but the truth that was revealed last friday is much more sinister). I know that we have plans to go to Kalamar (I am betrothed to a Zulu-analogue princess over there), and it has been aluded that some of the goings on in Faerun are integrally a part of our collective past, but its very sketchy for us right now. BTW, our sessions run from 5pm to midnight every friday night.
KnightErrant, I'll be happy to have your input.
-Walker |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 14 Feb 2006 18:58:31 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 19:09:36
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Reading your first campaign, its sounds large and ambitious. Its generally not the thing I would do, but in all honesty, thats just because my mind doesn't work quite that way. Its not that I wouldn't have a long term villain or a plot running over a long time, but I have a hard time making the whole campaign revolve around it, rather than making the campaign move from place to place with that element being part of it. That kind of massive "outcome based" campaign can be very rewarding in the end, but one of the pitfalls is that if you, for some reason, don't finish a campaign like that, then all of the sudden you don't so much have as many fond memories of the campaign as you have a kind of frustration with the fact that you never finihsed everything and got all of your answers. In a way, thats how I felt about the X-Files, for example. I loved the show when it was on and moving forward, and there was this feeling of a bigger conspiracy over the horizon, bigger then the one you just found out about, but now that its in reruns, I find I don't have the same zeal for watching it. Some stand alone episodes are fun to watch, but any of them that remind me of the "meta-plot" turn me off.
I like the second approach. While I would like the PCs to have some memorable recurring villains that they have a reason to dislike and oppose, rather than just having "boss mosnters" at the end of an adventure (and they certainly disliked the Monk of the Long Death and the Shadovar Diplomat), I am more concerned with them feeling like they are from Cormyr, what its like to live in Ashabenford, how the Moonsea is different from both of these regions, etc. In a way, however the campaign ends up, and if they never play the characters again, I want them to remember the characters fondly and have a good handle on who their characters were. I've never tried the NPC thing, but I have thought of it a few times. I'd be interested to hear how this turns out. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 00:32:26
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Thanks for speedy reply!
In the first case, I tend to agree with you. I've allready told the DM that its not a campaign that I would ever think of or choose to run, but all the same I enjoy it. This DM is VERY cinematic in his approach such that we nearly always have a prologue and epilogue to each game session full of information that our PC's have no access to. (example: a player recently left our game [the Navy is a b*tch like that] and our epilogue was a shot of dialogue between his character [who had disappeared] and an aristocratic wizard [Manshoon] welcoming him to the Zhentarim and assuring him that all of his questions would soon be answered...)
In the second case, I usually do have recurring villains, but I don't design them from the out-set. My players are always up to the challenge of inadvertantly creating re-curring villains. (example: at the end of City of the Spider Queen the Wizard's Gondsman had become the phylactery for a dracolich. Said dracolich eschewed his body, and took control of the construct pretending to be obedient. At the end of the module, while the party was bloody and battered, the Dracolich-Gondsman claimed Irae's two artifacts, raised her flunkies and dead party members as revenants subservient to him, and walked away because the party was in no position to stop him. He's still wandering about, by the way...)
-Walker |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 00:38:00
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| An evil Gondsmen possesed by the spirit of a dracolich with artifacts and undead servants . . . I've not heard that one before . . . |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2006 : 16:47:38
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| yes, its a lot of fun when creative pc's make mistakes... heh heh heh. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 03:39:00
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| My campaigns seem to differ from the norm I guess. I like to run them like a live world where the characters choose which direction to travel and what actions to take. to balance that I also hold them strictly accountable for those actions. I do however plan out several plots and sub plots in various areas of the campaign area that I am using at that time, in case teh party starts to travel in a direction I had not planned for. This has added to a lot of sub plots that I would normally not have thought about and it makes the players feel that they are contributing to the storyline. I start with providing the party with common information that a normal person in that area would be familiar with and then add in some adventure hooks. As far as character creation, I usually let the party come up with what they are looking for then tweak things here and there to suit what I have in mind for them. Additionally I have every player create a history of sorts and have them outline what they feel or which direction they think their character will take in the future. I usually try to incorporate at least one or two ideas that each player has for their character throughout the course of the game. This seems to work for everyone and the story lines have gone on for long periods of time with the longest running story lasting almost 2 years. IMO, this is along what the realms is to me, A live "shared world" with the party just off-center to what the rest of the powers that be are doing. this has added more realism to what is happening and allows my players to experience a bit of realms lore, feel they impact the world, and have lots of great fun. |
Edited by - scererar on 19 Feb 2006 03:42:49 |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 04:07:59
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i hear this bit of advice somewhere probably in the DMG II or heroes of battle or something... anyway it was saying to plan what would happen if the pcs didnt do anything.
(oh yes it was in heroes of battle) it was saying for example: If the heroes are trying to disrupt an enemy army by sabotaging the supply line, go ahead and plan what would happen if the pcs werent there.
I use this DMing style all the time now.
I tend to disagree with you KEJr. I mostly think campaigns should have a focus (I agree with monte cook) and by focus I mean a driving force... a main villain etc.
Working with a main villain allows me to see what he or she would do. or what would happen with the driving force of the campaign if the pcs never got involved.
This makes understanding your npcs easier as well as integrating pc goals into campaigns easier.. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 04:58:10
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I've been thinking about how I presented what I was talking about, and I think I have come up with something more analagous to what I meant, without particularly having to wade through my verbal stew that I started this thread with.
I see the Monte Cook style, main villain overall plotline type campaign as being like a novel, or perhaps a trilogy, with different phases, but a definate overall outline. The point being that there will be an ending, and everything is working toward that.
The way I picture my campaigns is more like a comic book series. While I have background premises, and short term plots, and ideas on where I want it to go, there isn't an obvious ending. This doesn't preclude recurring villains, but kind of like in a comic series, they tend to become recurring because they had a certain synergy with the heroes. In fact, if one group of villains were particularly dominant, and it became clear that the campaign would end, it would likely move toward a confrontation with them.
That having been said, if the PCs don't follow up on a plot thread, but they hear rumors about it and just don't bite, that event still plays out. If its an assasination of a prominent person, and I don't want them dead, then other adventurers saved the day (one of the reasons I introduced the rivals, a band of Sunite adventurers that everyone seems to just love, when they had to work really hard for recognition. They hate it when they hear about the Sunites managing to pull off some heroic act or another). |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 05:14:42
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| hmm that makes more sense |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Zherbus
Acolyte
1 Posts |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 06:46:18
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I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way to structure a campaign. However, if the expectations of the players are not the same as the DM, the campaign's doomed.
If the DM has a very specific storyline that he intends to follow and the players don't want to be rail-roaded, there's going to be trouble.
If the DM intends to run a very wide-open campaign -- allowing the players the freedom to choose what they would like to do -- but the players are inexperienced or lacking motivation this campaign could flounder.
The trick I've found as a DM is to really delineate what sort of campaign you intend to bring to the table and then make sure that all the players are on board. If this sort of campaign doesn't appeal, change tactics and come up with a campaign idea that does.
This is one of the big challenges that a DM faces. Ultimately, while the DM is the major storyteller, all players participate in writing a campaign. If some aren't onboard with the way this one is headed you're going to lose players' interest, lose players, or possibly deal with players sabotaging the storyline.
As a DM, I tend to structure campaigns based on the level of involvement I think my players are capable of and looking for. If I'm running a beer and pretzels game or for a group of completely inexperienced role players, I'm going to tend to present a more linear campaign with some entertaining diversions thrown in to break the monotony. If I'm running a game for hardcore role players who really want to shape their own destinies, I'll run a more seat of the pants style game that caters to their interests -- overwhelming them with options and then adapting to structure the story around what they decide to follow up on.
As a player, I tend to adapt my play style to the storyline being presented. If it is obvious that the DM intends to rail-road, I find a character concept that let's me jump on board as the engineer. If the campaign is more loose, I'll come up with a character concept that brings some of his/her own goals and aspirations to the table to help shape the campaign. |
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Campaign Structure: About the story or the PCs?
