| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 01:14:37
|
This is a scroll for the info that was being discussed in Ed's scroll.
Revjest posted, "Actually, your Hooded Loveliness, I'm not sure that general rule applies to an Eilistrean community? Who else are good drow elves going to worship? How much exposure to human and elven (Seldarine) faiths are they going to receive? And how many human or elven deities are going to accept Drow faithful?
You can argue that magically inclined Drow are sure to learn about Mystra from Qilue, if they dwell at the Promenade Temple with her. But apart from that example ...?"
Beirnadri Magranth posted, "i disagree. remember that drow gods had some human worshippers. gods dont turn worshippers away because of the color of their skins.... they are divine and see past the mortal flesh into te epersons' soul. truly good drow could definately worship a plethora of gods.
take drizzt (the most famous drow of all) for example. he worships mielikki. and also gods arent secretive. they thrive when their worhsippers do. they want recognition and worship. so it woudlnt be that hard for people to find out about them."
Asgetrion posted in response to Kentinal's post in Ed's scroll, "According to the novel 'Evermeet', Eilistraee's parents are Araushnee (Lloth) and Corellon - if I understood your question correctly."
Kentinal posted, "I was referring to Drizzt here, I well know the parents of Eilistraee. I also believe that Corellon would not be well revieved by any Drow because of what he did to even the Good ones, however clearly other sub-elven races would likely offer a pray to him from time to time. I so dislike cuttering ask Ed thread with side talk, so this post will disappear in the next few days (if a moderator does not get it first)."
And lastly, I posted, "Yet, Corellon does have dark elven divine casters."
|
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 31 Jan 2006 01:15:42
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 02:04:50
|
Corellon very well does have divine casters, for some Drow any deity is better then Lolth, Elven deities if they find them first. The reason I believe, and Yes just a belief, that Corellon would recieve minimun to no prays from followers of Eilistraee is because of what he allowed to happen to those tht oposed their kin durring the Crown wars. The father of their deity punished them even while they oposed the war, or at least some tactics used in the Crown wars. The wars started by the Gold elves of which Corellon appears to be of the same blood. I can more easy see Sulene, a moon goddess being homored and those of the Seldarine that Eilistraee is more allied with; "Callarduaran Smoothhands, Haela Brightaxe, Lurue, Mystra, the Seldarine, Selune" with this quailfier "While the Dark Maiden and the Seldarine remain allies, it is a strained
relationship that reflects the divisions that persist among the elves.
Among the elven powers, Eilistraee is only close with Erevan Ilesere,
and she has only recently worked out an uneasy truce with Shevarash.
Eilistraee is unusually close with the human goddess of magic, Mystra;" I grant this is 2nd Edition material, however 3rd F&P does not speak to allied deities.
It clearly can follow that a Drow selecting one of the Good Elven deities as a patron would look kindly on the followers of Eilistraee if they learn of her later.
There was one reference, I believe on WotC site, that described the followers of Eilistraee have a true history of Elven history. A history that does not match that of the Drow (Lolth is our savior) or that of te fair elves (All elves with black skin are evil). If this scroll takes off I will find the url and offer it.
For now I will close with this.
"In rare circumstances, males who worship Eilistraee-or beings without any priest powers who work to further Eilistraee's aims and need her visible blessing and support (or just some light)-will temporarily manifest moonfire (see Eitistroee's moonfire below). Such
manifestations are at the will of the goddess; the lucky recipient has no control over the duration, intensity, and location of the radiance."
Which at least might help indicate Eilistraee's feelings to males that honor her. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 04:16:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Corellon very well does have divine casters...
Demihuman Deities notes that dark elves are among Corellan's clergy.
quote:
The reason I believe, and Yes just a belief, that Corellon would recieve minimun to no prays from followers of Eilistraee is because of what he allowed to happen to those tht oposed their kin durring the Crown wars. The father of their deity punished them even while they oposed the war, or at least some tactics used in the Crown wars.
If that's true... then it really does become more of an elven racial reaction from the followers of Eilistraee against Corellan because they believe they were treated unfairly (as they see it) -- not a choice of Corellan's.
However, that still doesn't exclude the details in DD about dark elven clergy for Corellan, so it still holds true.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 05:22:02
|
Eilistraee is mentioned as having taken an interest in sylvan elves who live by the hunt - whether dark or not - so I suppose she receives reverence from some green elves as well.
And consider that the Descent may have included all dark elves - even good ones - to subtly strengthen Eilistraee against the Spider Queen? If only evil dark elves were exiled, there was less hope for their redemption - a redemption I can only believe the Creator of All Elves desires as dearly as his daughter. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 06:03:18
|
As I said it holds true for Drow that some follow Corellan, I just find it unlikely that Eilistraee followers would think much of him. I offer http://www.eilistraee.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?cat=chosen;board=cgeneral;action=display;num=1106019722 as some discussion that has taken place elsewhere. In some ways one can accept all the Sourthern dark elves suffering the fate of their leaders, though why gold did not remains unexplained. The few of Miyeritar that survived and had dark skin suffered the same fate which appears to not be a rather kind thing to do.
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 06:22:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Vangelor
Eilistraee is mentioned as having taken an interest in sylvan elves who live by the hunt - whether dark or not - so I suppose she receives reverence from some green elves as well.
And consider that the Descent may have included all dark elves - even good ones - to subtly strengthen Eilistraee against the Spider Queen? If only evil dark elves were exiled, there was less hope for their redemption - a redemption I can only believe the Creator of All Elves desires as dearly as his daughter.
Eilistraee has taken an interest in all races, not just Elven.
Well deity time is not the same as mortal time I still have the impression that the banishment occured well before the first Crown war. It would have taken some time for Lolth to gain deity levels and convert followers from her son. In fact itappears Lolth started to realy gain in power after the Desent, not before. There again times do change.
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
incognito
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 07:47:14
|
According to Lost Empires of Faerun, the Descent of the Drow was caused by a high magic ritual. The Elven Court had decided the Vyshaan were the root cause of the Crown Wars, and that they and the Ilythiiri were to be punished. The Vyshaan were all killed, and the Ilythiiri were to be banished with magic.
Of course, the ritual went awry and banished all dark elves. Lost Empires suggests that this could simply be another common occurance of what happens when elves (or whoever) reach too far with magic. But it does not take the wisdom of a deity to see what Lloth had to gain from this "mistake", and it seems likely to me she would have at least wanted to have a hand in it.
However, I am not sure what your average good-aligned Drow would know of the descent. I think many believe it was divine intervention, and thus could blame the Seldarine? Even if it were not, I can see how they could be blamed for not stepping in and doing something (though the same argument could be made for the Sundering, the Seldarine's alignment and dogma are not conductive to interference). However, I do not think high magic is under the control of Corellon anymore since its changes in 3rd edition to epic magic. So it could be the deities could not directly control such things.
If good-aligned drow did know the truth of the matter, I can't see why some wouldn't worship the Seldarine. |
Edited by - incognito on 31 Jan 2006 07:55:08 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 17:43:32
|
Well new material replaces old, however Corellon oversees High Elvem Magic. Which could still lay the blame for the Descent. Older lore clearly indicated that Clerics and High Mages prayed to the Seldarin including Corellon. If the fact has changed that only High Mages cast High Elven magic, so be it.
Corellon also cut all Drow off from High Elven magicno matter how good they were and that clearly was ubder his control. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 17:59:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well new material replaces old, however Corellon oversees High Elvem Magic. Which could still lay the blame for the Descent.
I disagree... That's like blaming Mystra if a mage kills anyone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 18:15:19
|
Actually Mystra does hold that responsibility. Her goal is the spread the use of magic, she well be happy that magic missle killed as compared to an arrow being used.
That said Mystra did try to cut off magic form the more evil forces, but AO forbids her from doing that. It is her job to spread the use of any type of magic lower then 10th level (And with Epic magic riles she can not actually prevent spells of power greater then 9th level)
However the Drow being cut off from High Magic clearly was an afirmive action (remember some Elven magic was 8th and 9th level spells). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
incognito
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 18:58:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well new material replaces old, however Corellon oversees High Elvem Magic. Which could still lay the blame for the Descent. Older lore clearly indicated that Clerics and High Mages prayed to the Seldarin including Corellon. If the fact has changed that only High Mages cast High Elven magic, so be it.
Corellon also cut all Drow off from High Elven magicno matter how good they were and that clearly was ubder his control.
Since drow have epic spellcasters, I don't see why they would not be able to cast high magic. Again, I think thats a 2nd edition reference. In 3rd edition material, I don't see anything that indicates Corellon has dominion over high magic (especially since its not differentiated from other epic magic). Under 2nd edition rules, I don't think drow would be able to cast high magic anyways (could you immagine them communing with each other in large groups?). |
Edited by - incognito on 31 Jan 2006 19:03:44 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 19:17:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by incognito
Since drow have epic spellcasters, I don't see why they would not be able to cast high magic. Again, I think thats a 2nd edition reference. In 3rd edition material, I don't see anything that indicates Corellon has dominion over high magic (especially since its not differentiated from other epic magic). Under 2nd edition rules, I don't think drow would be able to cast high magic anyways (could you immagine them communing with each other in large groups?).
Err we have had some dicussions about High Magic and Epic Magic and 3rd alerations. The consenious was that High (Elven) Magic still exists though looks vey much like Epic Magic, that Drow are prohipted from using High Magic, that anyone can use Epic Magic (if high enough level of course), that some fair Elves will choose to use either or both High Magic, Epic Magic.
Also of course Ist and 2nd Edition material is still considered canon, until 3rd changes it (which has lead to some interesting debates from time to time of if certain source material in 3rd changed canon by what was not said).
Edit: I forot about the comment about Drow "communing with each other in large groups" to which I reply. The tree hugging Drow (i.e. Eilistraee followers) clearly would be comfortable with communing with each other, clothing optional *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 31 Jan 2006 19:20:16 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 23:11:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Actually Mystra does hold that responsibility. Her goal is the spread the use of magic, she well be happy that magic missle killed as compared to an arrow being used.
That said Mystra did try to cut off magic form the more evil forces, but AO forbids her from doing that. It is her job to spread the use of any type of magic lower then 10th level (And with Epic magic riles she can not actually prevent spells of power greater then 9th level)
However the Drow being cut off from High Magic clearly was an afirmive action (remember some Elven magic was 8th and 9th level spells).
My point was that just because a deity controls something, it doesn't make them responsible for someone misusing it. If I dropped a tree on your head, is that Chauntea's fault? No, it's mine. No deities were involved. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 23:28:15
|
If I can recall it correctly, it seems that the novel Evermeet made several references to the fact that the elves suffer the same fate as their gods. As Lolth and Corellon fought amongst themselves, so did their mortal followers, and when he banished Lolth, the followers were almost destined to follow in their "father's" footsteps.
It wasn't a straight "god does this, therefore this happens to elves" sort of thing. It was very much how fate and destiny afflict the followers with the same strife of the gods; that what occured on Toril was a reflection of the the problems of the gods.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 23:58:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point was that just because a deity controls something, it doesn't make them responsible for someone misusing it. If I dropped a tree on your head, is that Chauntea's fault? No, it's mine. No deities were involved.
Well this example is going rather afar. The tree is not felled by deity granted ability. The tree was felled by either creature made item or some other deity granted ability. You have reached to should the blacksmith be responsible for all the deaths his sword makes.
Mystra is to encorage the use of magic, knowing very well that it will do evil things, she is respomsible for allowing such magics to be used (not that she has any right to prevent its use, it is her job to premit it).
Corellon has control, more or less of High Magic and he can cut off access to it. He allowed the Drow to be cut off from it, but if the High Magic failed to work as designed did not cut other elves off from it. In part your arguement that Corellonhas the lessor end of Control of High Magic so that he should not be blamed for the Desecnt. Even granting this is a true view what he did afterward condoned the banishment of all dark elves to become Drow even those that oposed the Southern ones that decided to woeship Lolth or other Dark deities, like her son. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 00:10:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
If I can recall it correctly, it seems that the novel Evermeet made several references to the fact that the elves suffer the same fate as their gods. As Lolth and Corellon fought amongst themselves, so did their mortal followers, and when he banished Lolth, the followers were almost destined to follow in their "father's" footsteps.
It wasn't a straight "god does this, therefore this happens to elves" sort of thing. It was very much how fate and destiny afflict the followers with the same strife of the gods; that what occured on Toril was a reflection of the the problems of the gods.
Mkhaiwati
Well Eilistraee fought on her fatjer's side, so that should mean Gold and good dark should get along well together *wink*
There indeed tend to be some degree of followers of deities having the some foes of followers of deities their deity oposes. This makes sense.
It would be interesting to see what would have occured with the dark elves/Drow if Eilistraee did not insist on bamishment. Would all dark elves still have been driven from the surface? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 00:41:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point was that just because a deity controls something, it doesn't make them responsible for someone misusing it. If I dropped a tree on your head, is that Chauntea's fault? No, it's mine. No deities were involved.
Well this example is going rather afar. The tree is not felled by deity granted ability. The tree was felled by either creature made item or some other deity granted ability. You have reached to should the blacksmith be responsible for all the deaths his sword makes.
Mystra is to encorage the use of magic, knowing very well that it will do evil things, she is respomsible for allowing such magics to be used (not that she has any right to prevent its use, it is her job to premit it).
Corellon has control, more or less of High Magic and he can cut off access to it. He allowed the Drow to be cut off from it, but if the High Magic failed to work as designed did not cut other elves off from it. In part your arguement that Corellonhas the lessor end of Control of High Magic so that he should not be blamed for the Desecnt. Even granting this is a true view what he did afterward condoned the banishment of all dark elves to become Drow even those that oposed the Southern ones that decided to woeship Lolth or other Dark deities, like her son.
No, my point is that a deity is not responsible for how something is misused. If elven short-sightedness lead to all drow being banished, it is not Corellon's fault -- it is the fault of the spellcasters -- either thru their negligence, or thru their deliberate racism. If you want to blame Corellon for what some elven mages did, then you've also got to blame him for the deaths of every single human, dwarf, gnome, half-elf, and any other critters slain by elves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 01:35:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, my point is that a deity is not responsible for how something is misused. If elven short-sightedness lead to all drow being banished, it is not Corellon's fault -- it is the fault of the spellcasters -- either thru their negligence, or thru their deliberate racism. If you want to blame Corellon for what some elven mages did, then you've also got to blame him for the deaths of every single human, dwarf, gnome, half-elf, and any other critters slain by elves.
Accepting the Corellon did not move to prevent the High Magic because he did not know in advance what the Result would be, this still does not explain why after the fact he cut Drow (and only Drow) from using High Magic. He did nothing to correct the unjust banishment of some and clearly should have been well aware of the posible adverse effects that result from allowing the use of High Magic, the Sundering, the Dark Disaster (OK we do not know for sure this was High Magic, but certainly a high level spell effect), in the first place.
What we do know is that Corellon can cut elves off from using High Magic, we also know only one Elven race was cut off from High Magic. The Sea elves aparently lost it for a time for lack of study, but it was restored to them. The avarial do to short lives might not have many, but they are permitted High Magic.
To som extent I do understand your arguement, if I give you a gun for hunting will it be my fault if you kill a person.
Depending on the situation indeed it could be my fault because I did not know you well enough to know you wanted to shoot a person instead of an animal. OTOH if I gave you the gun, made sure you knew how to hunt, perhaps even hunted with you knowing that you knew gun safety, that three years later you used the gun to shoot a person - this should not be my fault.
High Magic is very much the giving out a gun, that was earned by training (slow advancement under 2nd rules) to , in theory, make sure such powerful magic was properly used.
Oh a thought occured to me, the Sundering occured after The Descent (I think, timeline changed) not before, so that comment does not apply, the Dark Diaster though clearly might.
quote:
"The Protector [Corellon] works closely with Mystra, the Mother of All Magic. Whereas the Lady of Mysteries governs the Weave, Corellon oversees elven magic, particularly elven High Magic, and the intimate connection between the Fair Folk and the mantle of magic that envelops the world." -- Eric Boyd, Demihuman Deities
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 01:48:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Accepting the Corellon did not move to prevent the High Magic because he did not know in advance what the Result would be, this still does not explain why after the fact he cut Drow (and only Drow) from using High Magic. He did nothing to correct the unjust banishment of some and clearly should have been well aware of the posible adverse effects that result from allowing the use of High Magic, the Sundering, the Dark Disaster (OK we do not know for sure this was High Magic, but certainly a high level spell effect), in the first place.
With the advent of 3E, the above satement re drow being 'prevented' from using High Magic is one of nomenclature, not spellcasting or forms of magic. High Magic is now a type of epic spellcasting (albeit with considerable back-story, tradition and cultural influences). Drow can cast epic spells, just as other elves can. What drow can't do are cast epic spells and claim that they are High Magic. Of course, the drow might have their own name for epic spellcasting but given the cooperative nature of most powerful High Magic and given the nature of drow society in general, one could argue that the main differential between epic spell use between the drow and other elven races is that the former aren't big on cooperative spellcasting. In that vein, given the game mechanics for epic spellcasting, the drow would be largely unable to cast huge DC epic spells because of their inability to muster a roster of allied casters (except in limited situations such as within a particular drow house etc.). High Magic is now the name for a tradition of epic spellcasting among the surface elves of Faerūn, nothing more and nothing less.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 02:14:35
|
I maintain that Corellon knew full well the extent that the Descent would have (he is the elven god of Magic as well the Creator), that he is Good, and that he is wise enough to forsee that this would be for the best.
My speculations center around his acceptance of Eilistraee's (voluntary) exile, and his desire to spike the wheels of Lolth's schemes for the drow.
Of course that leaves room for dark elves faithful to Eilistraee to not care much for Corellon... but I think making blanket statements for the church of a goddess allied with the Seldarine and their First Power is probably unwise. |
|
|
|
incognito
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 08:50:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by George KrashosWith the advent of 3E, the above satement re drow being 'prevented' from using High Magic is one of nomenclature, not spellcasting or forms of magic. High Magic is now a type of epic spellcasting (albeit with considerable back-story, tradition and cultural influences).
-- George Krashos
Agreed, though I do wish 3E material would say something more concrete on the subject. High magic was sort of a defining feature of the elves, and it has been made bland by 3E. While its rules may have it as a weaker epic spellcasting PrC, we aren't told if it shares any similarities with 2E high magic presented in Cormanthyr and the Evermeet novel that differentiate it so much from other spellcasting (the communion, ever-present backlash damage, etc).
3E's epic magic more or less lets divine casters access the same spells as arcane ones. This again seems to conflict with FR history where arcane casters were the only ones to succeed great feats such as creating Mythals or Mythallars. Epic arcane magic has literally shaped Faerun into what it is today. It seems a shame to say divine casters can suddenly do the same. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 22:07:37
|
Agreed, though I do wish 3E material would say something more concrete on the subject. >>High magic was sort of a defining feature of the elves, and it has been made bland by >>3E. While its rules may have it as a weaker epic spellcasting PrC, we aren't told if it >>shares any similarities with 2E high magic presented in Cormanthyr and the Evermeet >>novel that differentiate it so much from other spellcasting (the communion, ever-present >>backlash damage, etc).
Absolutely agree. First they did it with circle magic (all are the same). Now High Magic. Next spellmantles.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2006 : 22:57:58
|
Well, the difficulty with spellmantles is that we have many different versions scattered across FR continuity. I've been tempted to do some work on them and see if I can get an article published in DRAGON, but whilst progress has been steady, it's far from 'done'. I'll keep you all posted.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:25:49
|
| Correlon showed his true colors,when he wouldn't lift a divine finger to protect myeritar but he did to save his golds! His holy symbol should be a swatica with a crecent moon in the forground. |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
|
|
|
darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:29:22
|
| He destroyed his daughters church and doomed the future generations of drow to demon-worship or death on the altars of darkness thanks dad/mom or what ever! |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:30:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkflame millithor
Correlon showed his true colors,when he wouldn't lift a divine finger to protect myeritar but he did to save his golds! His holy symbol should be a swatica with a crecent moon in the forground.
It is not that Correllon don't want to protect his children. Simply, he is a kind of reclusive parent, he wants his children to be independent and self-reliant, and to solve their problems by themselves and not rely on the gods for any big problem they mortal elves themselves cooked up and to be responsible for their own actions. Correllon is the father figure of most elves but that doesn't mean he owe the Tel'Quessir anything. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:36:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkflame millithor
He destroyed his daughters church and doomed the future generations of drow to demon-worship or death on the altars of darkness thanks dad/mom or what ever!
Lolth was said to be given power over the Dark Elves by Correllon since her inception, if I am not wrong.
You mean Eliastree? Well Eliastree herself chose self-exile despite not involved in the wrong side of the civil war in Arvandor and even Correllon tried to persuade her from leaving, but his daughter recognized that someone must lead the dark elves away from the false lies of her mother, so she chose to leave Arvandor in order to do what she wanted-free the dark elves from her mother's vile influence and she is greatly missed by her father and fellow comrades in Arvandor.
The dark elves following Eliastree will one day return to Arvandor with the goddess, i am pretty sure she and her followers will and Correllon would be pleased and eager to welcome her daughter and the enlightened dark elves back but surely not Lolth and her crazy followers.
Eliastree and Lolth cannot force the dark elves to worship them but only influence them, they the dark elves have the choice of choosing, they choose to worship who they like and suited them best and hence they themselves account for their own worship of their deities. If they enjoy evil practices and corruption, they go for Lolth, if they favor peace and want to get rid of the evil ways of their kind, they follow Eliastree. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 10 May 2006 01:39:20 |
|
|
|
darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:37:28
|
Where I come from a reclusive parent is charged with child neglect,abuse,and abandonment.They go to jail or get their kids taken away!
Where is Tyr when you need him!ha,ha ,ha. |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:41:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkflame millithor
Where I come from a reclusive parent is charged with child neglect,abuse,and abandonment.They go to jail or get their kids taken away!
Where is Tyr when you need him!ha,ha ,ha.
The gods cannot always be there for their children or else their children will never learn to pick themselves up after having fallen down. If the gods were to do so, they will encourage a dependency habit in their children and this will go against the gods teachings and dogma. The gods want worthy self-reliant, thinking followers, not a bunch of cry-babies who cry after having fallen. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:51:27
|
I don't know about you but I think the dancing harlot could use a little help! Moma's not a push over,and she's stronger now than she ever was then.Not to mention her brother.If he wasn't such a weakling I'd say he stands a better chance
of "redeeming"the drow then his sister. The battle between quentil and halistra is typically how/why she can't gain a foothold! She/and her clerics are too weak.Drow respect power she doesn't have enough to spare.(daddy needs to incress her allowance,not sehanine and not mystra.it's his daughter. Even the dwarves are rebounding. Wake up seldarine and do your job before it's too late.If the light elves go extint who will be there to protect the others from us? or the Final Prophacy of the end! |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:01:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkflame millithor
I don't know about you but I think the dancing harlot could use a little help! Moma's not a push over,and she's stronger now than she ever was then.Not to mention her brother.If he wasn't such a weakling I'd say he stands a better chance
of "redeeming"the drow then his sister. The battle between quentil and halistra is typically how/why she can't gain a foothold! She/and her clerics are too weak.Drow respect power she doesn't have enough to spare.(daddy needs to incress her allowance,not sehanine and not mystra.it's his daughter. Even the dwarves are rebounding. Wake up seldarine and do your job before it's too late.If the light elves go extint who will be there to protect the others from us? or the Final Prophacy of the end!
Even the gods cannot deny the whims of Fate and Time, if the event or whatever must happen, not even the greatest of the gods can deny it and if it must happen, it will happen despite how much pre-emptive strikes or actions against it. Even Mystra could not deny the Time of Troubles happenning.
Lolth growing stronger is natural and a destined event. Correllon is a greater power and naturally by the Laws of the Balance, he must be balanced by a greater evil power and that would naturally be Lolth. The Drow like to increase power but don't know how to use it, stockpiling power is not a way to win fights and the drow don't know the logic, for a small amount of power well marshaled and well-planned can defeat even the biggest power. Power is not about stockpiling it, but how one use it will determine the outcome.
Even Eliastree clerics had small groups of special forces and small strike groups that struck many victories against their enemies whom are larger and more powerful.
The dwarves increasing in numbers is merely a last desperate attempt against the orcs, the dwarves are decling in numbers and the orcs increasing in numbers. If the dwarves become extinct, then it would be a symbolic victory for Gruumsh, patron god of the orcs and that means "orcs crush dwarves by attrition."
The elves will never go extinct, for as long there is magic, there will be elves. Correllon said that himself. If the Final Armageddon of Toril must happen and the gods of both light and dark go enter the Final War/Ragnarok, then it will happen for no amount of resistance can prevent it from happening. All beginnings must have an end. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Drow and the Seldarine and the Dwarven deities
