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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 06:31:20
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I'm playing a druid with a wolf animal companion, but I've ran into some troubles when "leveling up" the wolf when I gain levels. Although the rules in the Player's Handbook are straight forward, it doesn't state whether an animal companion increases in size after recieving extra HD. So does my wolf increase to large upon gaining 4 HD, or remain at medium size?
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"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:49:54
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"An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. "
Would appear to indicate that indeed your wolf indeed would become large on having a total of 4 HD or more. I personally would not allow advancement to size large for a wolf, but that would be a house rule. I know of no wolf achieving the size of 8 foot long (tail does not count when measuring an animal "quadruped's body length (nose to base of tail)") nor achieve a body weight of 500 pounds.
So if I was your DM I would indeed rule your wolf stays medium no matter how many HD it achieves.
The only other arguement that can be made that wolf does not increase in size is that an animal compamion can recieve 12 bonus Hit dice which is twice the maximun the most powerful wolf can have, that advancement is just restricted to "additional skill points and feats" as oposed to size. Here there might need to be a balancing act because as the wolf grows older the core rules do appear to require that the Wolf will at some point in time become large.
Edit: A Wolf starts with 2 HD and as Animal companion will reach 14 HD (without looking at Epic rules), so perhaps bonus HD could be spread over +3 HD, which results in one HD counted for size increase.
I still do not believe a wolf should be able to grow large, nor can I find any clear statement of how bonus HD from being a comapion may or may not effect size. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 14 Jan 2006 07:57:18 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 10:17:55
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Taken useful snippets here from the SRD leading to an answer so you can see how it came about, sorry I'm lazy 
quote:
Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.
quote:
SIZE INCREASES
A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry).
A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below.
quote:
Wolf:
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–6 HD (Large)
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 11:48:27
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| There can be another consideration. An animal companion can be dismissed and another taken. If wolf is dismissed it would not have bonus HD any more and it would be less then logical that the wolf would shrink in size as a result of being dismissed. Nor would it be very logical if first wolf died and a replacement wolf taken that it would jump in size because Druid is high enough level to grant the bonus HD to make them 4+ |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 18:50:21
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| My thanks, fellow scribes, I guess for game balance purposes, I should keep my wolf at medium size (heck, the wolf can defeat our party paladin in one on one combat if it was large...). |
"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 03:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There can be another consideration. An animal companion can be dismissed and another taken. If wolf is dismissed it would not have bonus HD any more and it would be less then logical that the wolf would shrink in size as a result of being dismissed. Nor would it be very logical if first wolf died and a replacement wolf taken that it would jump in size because Druid is high enough level to grant the bonus HD to make them 4+
I think the dismissed animal should retain its greater size, and rule amidst its own kind. Thus is the effect of being chosen as a companion by a divine agent of nature. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 03:52:45
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Are you playing 3.0 or 3.5?
Animal companions are pretty overpowered in 3.0 (in that they can be harder than the druid master [o.O]) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 03:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There can be another consideration. An animal companion can be dismissed and another taken. If wolf is dismissed it would not have bonus HD any more and it would be less then logical that the wolf would shrink in size as a result of being dismissed. Nor would it be very logical if first wolf died and a replacement wolf taken that it would jump in size because Druid is high enough level to grant the bonus HD to make them 4+
I think the dismissed animal should retain its greater size, and rule amidst its own kind. Thus is the effect of being chosen as a companion by a divine agent of nature.
A 14 HD wolf certainly would rule surpreme if only because of its size. Only problem I have with the idea is a 500 pound (or greater wolf in the first place) wolf being posible or even acepted by any wolf pack. Wolves do not get that big, such a strage thing would not be acepted at all in wolf culture. The bloody thing would be bigger then some bears. The Wolf advancement to large strikes me as a clear error in design. Let the Dire Wolves be large and leave the normal wolves medimun.
IAE until the Sage addresses the issue, or some other souce book, I would indeed stay with the smaller size. Also remove Druid granted abilities, just picture a level 20 Druid summoning a normal wolf once every other day to make wolves into an army of 14 HD wolves. Heck the Dire wolves would be in danger, though also Worgs would be. This, animal compaion, is not the same as awken animal where effects are instant. Your intepretation could quickly result in changing the balance of nature itself. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 04:09:42
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I beg to differ with regards to the wolves not taking the large wolf as a leader, since I believe that the pack would go based on who (wolf like obviously) defeated their current leader.
Look at the struggles on the pack in Darkwalker on Moonshae (Moonshae trilogy book 1 by Douglas Niles I think, not sure), to see the way Canthus the moorhound, and Erian the human turned wolf struggle for control of the pack. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 18:57:02
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| I agree with Kaladorm. Furthermore, it's a 'bloody fantasy world' and the idea of an old man of woods riding a horse-sized wolf shouldn't offend your sensibilities! (i.e. how do you justify beholders floating around without magic then? their flight 'is' an EX ability, not a SP or SU... ;) and while we're at it, how about people throwing fireballs? or tiny halfling fighting a T-Rex and winning? :P ) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 20:07:59
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The size disparity is what concerns me, even graning a fantsy wolf.
The wolf going to large size in effect becomes a small dire wolf instead of a wolf anymore. RAW does premit such dramatic size increase 75-125 pounds to over 500 pounds, so indeed some can subscribe to such a theory. Animal catagory of type howeve was designed to relect RL creatures and no Real Lige Wolf gets that big. I believe it is a design flaw that allows wolves to grow that big. PCs can gain many more HD and do not grow an inch. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 22:09:01
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Consider that size large isn't necessarily a direct growth, but an abstract way of representing that fact that the beast is stronger (harder to grapple and trip), and that the weight increase could be due to more condensed muscle.
Also consider that the beast isn't 'naturally' growing to that size (if you forgive the expression), as the companion is magically enhanced by the druid.
It states that to advance their companion the druid must spend 24 hours in prayer, it is totally conceivable that the companion could grow in size thanks to magic |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 23:16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Consider that size large isn't necessarily a direct growth, but an abstract way of representing that fact that the beast is stronger (harder to grapple and trip), and that the weight increase could be due to more condensed muscle.
Consider that HD/level for any creature, PC or NPC is an abstact way of indicating a growth of power, becoming a more powerful foe and that many do not grow in size. Consider a wolf is susposed to look like a wolf, not a Dire wolf. From perhaps 50 pounds of musxle to 250 pounds of muscle. PC/NPC/creatures gettin increase Str from leveling up must get bigger as well.quote:
Also consider that the beast isn't 'naturally' growing to that size (if you forgive the expression), as the companion is magically enhanced by the druid.
Not a beast, but an animal. Though 3.5 eliminated beast catagory. The animal is only enhanced when a campianion, unless you want to go with that theory all dismissed animals dismissed keep the Druid magical enhancement, a very unbalancing concept.quote:
It states that to advance their companion the druid must spend 24 hours in prayer, it is totally conceivable that the companion could grow in size thanks to magic
It states to get an animal compainion it takes 24 hours, one has to infer the first one that is started with also took 24 hours.
" A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: manta ray, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished. "
"Class Level Bonus HD NaturalArmor Adj. Str/Dex Adj. Bonus Tricks
. .1st-2nd . . . . . +0 . . . . +0 . . . . . . . . . . +0 . . . . . 1
Special
Link, share spell"
It takes the same time for this low level Cleric to summon a New Companion and form a link as it does if the Druid is level 20 that provides +12 to HD and Nautral Armor and +6 to Str/Dex, provides 7 Bonus tricks and all the Specials. It wold take a magic many days to achieve this, gold and experience points as well.
We might well have to agree to disagree, however I put forth the theory that the Animal companion though link is enhanced not with monster hit Dice that effect size, that however do increases its abilities. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Jan 2006 23:20:27 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 03:56:36
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The real question here becomes a game mechanics question:
"Is there a cost to 'pay' to give a size increase to a wolf animal companion?"
According to the strict wording of the rule, the answer is a resounding "no," unless there's a Dragon magazine out there whose Sage section clarifies the animal companion growth issue.
Therefore, the player of druid with a sane desire to achieve character survivability, barring roleplay reasons, would choose to have his/her wolf go to Large size as it crosses the 4HD threshold, as there is no 'cost' or 'drawback' associated to it. Going Large gives the wolf a clear overall advantage (sure, he looses a point of AC/Dex or two, but overall, he is at a clear advantage over a Medium wolf with the same amount of HD), at no apparent cost, so why fight the size increase? (again, barring any roleplay or situational factor, such as preferring Medium wolves in a cramped dungeon environment, etc.)
Not only the druid gets a stronger, more survivable companion (he/she would hate to see his/her companion die at every adventure, yes?), but he also get a sturdy mount, which can be rendered even more survivable and useful through Mounted Combat feats...)
My two cents anyways... |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 03:51:05
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The wolf definitely should become large when the increased hit dice say it should. Hit dice, feat, ability score, skill points, and size increases are the only way the initial 1st-level druid animals (from the "1st level list") keep pace with the options druids have at 4th, 7th, 10th level etc. Consider that a 4th level druid could take a Dire Bat (large flying animal, 4HD, Str 17, Dex 22, Con 17) and compare that with a 4HD large wolf, 14 Str, 16 Dex, Con 15, with 1 bonus trick and evasion. Then at 7th level compare a 6HD large wolf, Str 15, Dex 17, Con 15, with 2 extra bonus tricks, evasion and devotion with a 6HD large brown bear, Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, with Improved Grab and 3 attacks as part of a full attack.
If your loyal wolf companion didn't become large when it hit 4HD its starting to look even more pitiful. The point is that the animal should advance to the fullest extent or else it won't keep track with the abilities it should (could) have given the druid's level. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 04:52:11
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Increased size reduces AC and does not deal with the problem of dismisal (let alone other problems of dismisal) causing a reduction in sze.
Call it a rule problem that the DM has to deal with or call it a misinterpertation of the rules that campaion HD bosus does not effect animal size. If you get the Sage (whomever has that role now) to make a ruling you still get to decide what you do in your campaign.
I do not see the idea of size increase, then decrease as a viable option for even FR fantasy world. You clearly are allowed to do so. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 11:52:57
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| Also, if there IS progression for alrge wolf, then there MUST be naturally large sized wolves somewhere (probally in some highly dangerous region or mountain region near giants who have large sized sheeps and such wolf groups are small :P). So releasing a advanced wolf companion who had grown QUITE big when compared in 1lvl would be naturall, only odd would be that such wolf would easly dominate and own severall packs at once thanks it's prowess what it gained as archdruid's pet (henceworth stories about giant wolves could be nice addition to the campaing). |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 12:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kazzaroth
Also, if there IS progression for alrge wolf, then there MUST be naturally large sized wolves somewhere (probally in some highly dangerous region or mountain region near giants who have large sized sheeps and such wolf groups are small :P).
There are. See the MMII, Masters of the Wild, and the ELH; however, I believe there's a ruling that non-type and bonus hit dice aren't used on the Advancement lines, hence, this discussion is moot. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 13:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Kazzaroth
Also, if there IS progression for alrge wolf, then there MUST be naturally large sized wolves somewhere (probally in some highly dangerous region or mountain region near giants who have large sized sheeps and such wolf groups are small :P).
There are. See the MMII, Masters of the Wild, and the ELH; however, I believe there's a ruling that non-type and bonus hit dice aren't used on the Advancement lines, hence, this discussion is moot.
I've been trying to locate the said ruling for some time now Arivia: could you be so nice as to point me in the right directon? |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 13:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I've been trying to locate the said ruling for some time now Arivia: could you be so nice as to point me in the right directon?
I'm having trouble finding it myself, honestly. I'll recheck everything I can think of, though.
Two rulings so far:
1) Masters of the Wild's system for companion advancement included a noted size increase.
2) HD gained from class levels do not count for advancement purposes. Nebulous, but possible answer.
Got it!
quote:
D&D 3.5 FAQ, 26/1/2006 version
When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s)
animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the
animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a
wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit
Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level,
the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry
in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice
would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also
Large?
An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra
Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for
creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
There we go, folks.
EDIT: I kept reading. There's another version of this question, too:
quote:
D&D 3.5 FAQ, 26/1/2006 version
When a druid reaches the equivalent of 3rd level, does
his wolf animal companion grow to Large size (with all of
the benefits and penalties associated with size increase)?
Does the wolf continue to gain bonus Hit Dice, even though
a wolf’s advancement normally maxes out at 6 Hit Dice?
Finally, does a wolf automatically become Large if your
druid of 3rd or higher level acquires it as an animal
companion, granting it bonus Hit Dice?
The animal companion rules—or, for that matter, pretty
much any other effect that grants a creature bonus Hit Dice—
don’t use the monster improvement rules presented in Chapter
4 of the Monster Manual. The rules in Monster Manual are for
creating tougher versions of existing monsters, not for
increasing the statistics of creatures who somehow gain Hit
Dice.
An animal’s normal advancement line has absolutely
nothing to do with the benefits it gains from being an animal
companion, and vice versa. A wolf animal companion doesn’t
become size Large when its Hit Dice increases to 4, nor is it
limited to the “normal” Hit Dice cap for wolves.
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Edited by - Arivia on 07 Feb 2006 13:46:56 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 17:09:04
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Wonderful, Arivia!
So in essence, more work for the DM, hey? ;)
If a player wants a Large wolf, I must now figure out what resulting CR increase the HD advancement will yield, then figure out what CR increase the size increase will yield... THEN compare the final CR to the CR of other animal companions shown in the Animal Companion tables (i.e. 4th-level list, with the Dire Bat, etc.)
When my modified Large Wolf fits within the CR range of a given Animal Companion list, then I can tell my player he can or cannot have that animal companion depending on his current level.
You see why I was hoping for automatic size increase?     |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 17:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Wonderful, Arivia!
So in essence, more work for the DM, hey? ;)
If a player wants a Large wolf, I must now figure out what resulting CR increase the HD advancement will yield, then figure out what CR increase the size increase will yield... THEN compare the final CR to the CR of other animal companions shown in the Animal Companion tables (i.e. 4th-level list, with the Dire Bat, etc.)
When my modified Large Wolf fits within the CR range of a given Animal Companion list, then I can tell my player he can or cannot have that animal companion depending on his current level.
You see why I was hoping for automatic size increase?
Or you could go the simple route and say that the only Large wolf allowed is the dire wolf, which already appears on the 7th-level list. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 02:43:52
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No way! Haven't you SEEN these bony protrusions coming out of the dire wolf's flanks??? there is NO way one could ride all day on this puppy and walk the next day!  |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 03:20:30
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I understand the ruling better now, thanks for the appropriate references. From a role-playing perspective I can see a druid keeping his/her loyal wolf animal companion from way back at 1st level throughout her/his adventuring career.
But from a game mechanic standpoint I wouldn't fault any druid for dumping "Scruffy" every time at 4th level and picking up a black bear (medium), then switching to a brown bear (large) at 7th level due to having 3 attacks on a full attack and enormous Str/Con bonuses. Essentially, the HD and ability score increases for low level animal companions are nullified by the alternative animal companion options available at later levels. So that leaves the bonus tricks and a few situational feats to make it worthwhile to actually stick with an initially weaker animal. Is it worth it in the long run? (Again, not counting the role-playing aspect of being "Scruffy" the wolf's eternal soulmate and such) |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 03:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Wonderful, Arivia!
So in essence, more work for the DM, hey? ;)
If a player wants a Large wolf, I must now figure out what resulting CR increase the HD advancement will yield, then figure out what CR increase the size increase will yield... THEN compare the final CR to the CR of other animal companions shown in the Animal Companion tables (i.e. 4th-level list, with the Dire Bat, etc.)
When my modified Large Wolf fits within the CR range of a given Animal Companion list, then I can tell my player he can or cannot have that animal companion depending on his current level.
You see why I was hoping for automatic size increase?
Or you could go the simple route and say that the only Large wolf allowed is the dire wolf, which already appears on the 7th-level list.
Or rule that in 7llv you cna icnrease your wolf's size and it loses some tricks etc becuase it haves to 're-accustom' to the new size (so there would be no need 'dumb' old pet for new and better one). |
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Help about Animal Companions
