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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 07:12:18
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A PC of mine was looking to becoming a divine champion and needed a mission. So, I decided that the Shades who inhabited Ascore were plumbing its depths for a great Secret put there by Dumathoin when it was inhabited by dwarves.
Discovering that the Secret was a actually the source of Moradin's Thunder Twin Blessing and that the Shades were looking to use it increase their own "potency", the PCs routed the Shades and Ascore was returned to the dwarven nation, lickity split.
See? The common solution to too many Shades in one place is a bunch of a overzealous PCs bent on destruction. :D |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 16:05:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm... This is only my humble opinion, but to me "A Primordial Great Evil" brings to mind some insubstantial demon-like horror or "presence"
To me I'm thinking obyrith. Hmm, that close to the desert and with the pyramids -- maybe it's Obox-Ob?
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 20:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm... This is only my humble opinion, but to me "A Primordial Great Evil" brings to mind some insubstantial demon-like horror or "presence" - such as the Demon Lord featured in the Dungeon-magazine trilogy set in Istivin, Eshowdow (or however it is spelled ;) from the Jungles of Chult, or the "Black Wind" in the 'Wheel of Time'-series.
I still like the Shadevari hypothesis... but Asgetrion, I think you may be on to something with your use of the term "primordial"... given the bastardization of Abeir and all. I hope that's not what's going on; I would love to know more about the Shadevari. 
[Edit]: On a related note, I'd also love to know more about Kesson Rel/Volumvax beyond what's stated on page 173 of Faiths & Pantheons. Does this mean I have another reason to read Paul Kemp's trilogy, apart from the rave reviews I've received from other readers? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 09 Oct 2008 20:13:14 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 00:37:30
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Oh yes. That relationship WILL keep you guessing.
Plus, Kemp's the man.
Read damn you. *slams a fist on his desk* Read IT!
Ahem. Sorry. *sits back down* |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 03:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
If I do, I'll likely use it as a reason to play around with some of the deities/powers from Lords of Madness(thanks for introducing the aboleth powers to the Realms, Eric!), as it's the only thing in my shelf of books to use next that fits the idea fairly well.
I remember reading a 3E FR sourcebook that had an aboleth that served one of the aboleth deities, but was there any other reference where he officially introduced the aboleth deities to the Realms?  |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 05:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
Does anyone think the idea of linking it to the binding of the original shadevari makes sense?
(Sorry for repeating my question... but I was hoping for some input on this idea.)
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure why they'd be there.
<chop>
--Eric
Hrm... Now, after the return of Thultanthar (Shade), it makes a lot more sense why the Shadevari bindings would be beneath Ascore... but it doesn't explain why they were there originally... one would think that they've been there for a good long time if they're to do with the binding of the Shadevari, and yet that would make it long before Netheril existed, let alone Thultanthar going off into the Shadow Plane.
Hopefully this will be resolved soon...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 04:19:49
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-Slap me and call me stupid, but who are the Shadevari? 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 04:53:08
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| [PDK removes his right hand gauntlet, lifts his helmet visor, and does what Brimstone asked him to do...] |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 13 Oct 2008 04:53:30 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 04:55:29
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-But you didn't answer my question. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 05:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Slap me and call me stupid, but who are the Shadevari?
BRIMSTONE
I'm assuming Jakk is referring to the Shadovar -- the once-refugee inhabitants of the City of Shade. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 07:32:18
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Not quite, Sage. The Shadevari are probably Shadow primordials (if such a thing exists, but I don't play 4e). Here's the creation myth that mentions them (I don't know the original source, but I'd expect it to be 2e, given the "crystal sphere" references and the mention of Ao, and I don't have my 2e sources handy to check; this was copied from the WotC forums):
quote:
History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness
This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within this dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the Shadevari - whether they came form elsewhere or are children of the shadow itself, none can say. Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace).
This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it. Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sisters-Who-Were-One become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune contested with her dark sister over whether or not to bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle.
At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea. Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere.
This essence entered Shar, ripped an equal portion of energy from her, and reformed behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful, dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge. The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied Daughters and sons and like-minded immigrant deities.
Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own desires was undone when Azuth, the High One, formerly the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-sized crystal sphere located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows.
The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.
Attribution (from WotC boards): "Taken from Sorcerer's Place (http://sorcerers.net), which took it from a book item in Baldur's Gate II. But then it comes from a canon FR story, and I think a shorter version is in the FRCS."
Given this creation myth, we have clear justification for the Shadow Weave being a part of the Weave, from the account of Mystryl's creation. But I'm getting off topic. Thirteen Shadevari bound by Azuth sometime after his ascension to divinity in the 100's DR (the first Magister mentioned in the 2E supplement Secrets of the Magister is Azuth's immediate successor, as near as I can tell from the other information available regarding the time frame of Azuth's ascension), thirteen red pyramids under Ascore. Of course, there were also thirteen places at the table at the Last Supper, so it could all be coincidence... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 17 Oct 2008 07:44:22 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 07:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Not quite, Sage.
No, it's fully right. That's pretty much how the Shadovar are defined in Lords of Darkness.
Granted, the definition itself may have changed since the publication of LoD. I wouldn't really know, since I've not kept up with most of the Shade-related Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 07:54:32
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The Shadovar, yes, but the Shadevari are different beasties, from what I can tell. Distinction in nomenclature was a bit lacking here, and has muddied the waters of comprehension. 
My bad; I should have been clearer in the distinction in my original post.
Perhaps someone with access to more sources can clear this up for us. THO? Krash? Garen? Anyone with an accessible 2e-era collection of lore?
Edit: Apparently, the story above is from Faiths & Avatars, of which my roommate happens to have a copy. There is also a trimmed-down version somewhere in the 3e FRCS. Looking them up now... [/edit] |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 17 Oct 2008 08:05:05 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 15:41:18
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The Shadevari, if I recall right, are related to the Crypt of the Shadow King and the Curse of the Shadow Mage novels. They were, in 2e at least, the original users of shadow magic, however in 3e they were mostly ignored and never mentioned again.
They should also be detailed in Villians Lorebook. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Oct 2008 15:42:54 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 15:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
The Shadevari, if I recall right, are related to the Crypt of the Shadow King and the Curse of the Shadow Mage novels. They were, in 2e at least, the original users of shadow magic, however in 3e they were mostly ignored and never mentioned again.
They should also be detailed in Villians Lorebook.
That's ringing bells now. An avatar of a Shadevari was summoned in the Crypt of the Shadowking and Curse of the Shadowmage novels.
And the "Sisters of Light and Darknesss" story is detailed somewhat on pg. 141 in Faiths & Avatars. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 17 Oct 2008 15:50:06 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 21:26:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And the "Sisters of Light and Darkness" story is detailed somewhat on pg. 141 in Faiths & Avatars.
That's in fact the verbatim source for the story I quoted above. I finally tracked down my roommate's copy. I miss my 1e/2e Realmslore library. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 20 Oct 2008 04:30:15 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 04:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Hrm... Now, after the return of Thultanthar (Shade), it makes a lot more sense why the Shadevari bindings would be beneath Ascore... but it doesn't explain why they were there originally... one would think that they've been there for a good long time if they're to do with the binding of the Shadevari, and yet that would make it long before Netheril existed, let alone Thultanthar going off into the Shadow Plane.
Hopefully this will be resolved soon...
Actually, in context of the timeline involved, it makes perfect sense. Azuth didn't ascend to divinity until sometime in the 100's DR, and his ascension and imprisonment of the Shadevari happened fairly close together, so if that's what the pyramids are, then they've only been there for about 1300 years, even after the time jump. I think we're on to something here...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2009 : 20:19:26
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Revisiting this conundrum after nine months, largely to distract myself from the Cormyr Lineage...
Going by the dates from Secrets of the Magister, if that tome contains all post-Azuth Magisters, Azuth ascends to divinity in 136 DR, making it post-Ascore if the pyramids really are associated with the binding of the Shadevari. If not, then Azuth's ascension date doesn't matter one bit and we still have the biggest mystery in Faerūn on our hands. The former alternative is the one I'm going with, and my hypothesis discussed above is "the way things are" in my Realms. It meshes with known (by me) canon lore pre-1376 and answers my biggest burning question about the Realms apart from the aforementioned Cormyr lineage... which I will not mention further here, as it is grossly off-topic, not to mention irritating for some to even think about, let alone read about every three posts. I'm extremely tired right now, so my apologies if this is incoherent rambling. Then again, most of what I say is rambling with various degrees of coherence. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 04:05:25
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Hmm, I likely haven't been clear about this, so should be.
The "lore" that was cut out of LEoF regarding the pyramids at Ascore isn't NDA. It simply no longer exists. The designer who wrote that particular section of the book came up with some stuff on the pyramids. The chapter was heavily re-written and that material never saw the light of day. It wasn't edited out and kept in a locked box of FR lore tidbits, it essentially was over-written and no longer exists except in the first drafts of the product.
If you asked WotC to release the material they have on the pyramids of Ascore you would be met by very blank stares.
Oh, and it had nothing to do with Azuth or Shadevari.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 05:07:44
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I get the feeling that if I asked anybody at WotC a question about anything pre-4.0, I would be met by very blank stares. I'm not really surprised by that. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up, George; if the lore no longer exists, then I feel far more liberated to do what I want with the location. I expect that none of those "first drafts" exist in any accessible form, correct?
Edit: I *am* curious how you know what this non-existent lore was *not* about, George... [/edit] |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 19 Jul 2009 05:12:04 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 09:06:09
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Oh, it certainly exists - I keep most everything - but it's pointless for it to ever see the light of day.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 21:17:15
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NOTHING 'FR' is EVER pointless. 
Shame on you, Krash...
Even if it never becomes canon, it still gives us all something to mull over (and discuss). Then again, perhaps it wasn't all that great to begin with...
Are those four-sided pyramids, BTW? Just wondering... I was doing something in my own setting, using them as magical accumulators (which is supposedly along the lines of what they were for in RW). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jul 2009 21:18:23 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 03:25:04
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Five-sided (pentagonal), IIRC... yep, check the OP... and red, as we should all know by now...
Edit: So *why* is it pointless for the lore to see the light of day, exactly? Just because the Smellplague has overrun the Realms, doesn't mean that everybody's holding their noses and diving in. I have a completely separate alternate unplagued timeline that I am fully committed to, and I would love to have more lore to contribute to it... particularly lore from masters such as yourself, Krash. I mean, as you know from this scroll, I have my own theory, but now that you've said that my theory has nothing to do with what was almost canon, you've made it necessary (if possible) to share what might have been, imho... assuming that the NDA no longer applies thanks to the LEoF cut and the timeline advance. 
Edit 2: And, as Markustay says, it gives us something to ponder and debate, which is what Candlekeep is for, is it not? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 20 Jul 2009 03:38:25 |
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Nightseer
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 07:08:05
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3 little ity bity letters.....NDA.  |
Shar! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 15:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Five-sided (pentagonal), IIRC... yep, check the OP... and red, as we should all know by now...
Interesting.
If the Netherease used the concept of five elements (like Eastern philosiphy), rather then the standard four, that would work.
I was going with 'five sided' for my Egypt-like region in my homebrew, just to be different. I suppose every idea HAS already been thought of before <sigh>. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jul 2009 15:09:34 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 15:21:06
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*put my mathematics degree to use*
The difficulty in a five-sided polygon is in figuring out how to create it with a compass (the one that draws circles, not the one that points north). It's one of those mathematical conundrums that, although you can create almost any of the basic degrees using a compass, the 72 degree needed to create a five-sided polygon is impossible* to do with a compass.
So, the question then becomes how difficult is it to express architecturally in the plans to build one? A four-sided pyramid, therefore, becomes MUCH more easier to design and build since 90 degrees is easy to create.
Of course, all this gets tossed out the window once you start using magic and it's "reality-is-just-a-guidline" rules-breaking.
*impossible, of course is defined as 'hasn't been done yet', of course. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 02:34:17
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*bump*
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh, it certainly exists - I keep most everything - but it's pointless for it to ever see the light of day.
-- George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
NOTHING 'FR' is EVER pointless.
Shame on you, Krash...
Even if it never becomes canon, it still gives us all something to mull over (and discuss).
<snip>
Agreed, Mark... just because Toril is round, doesn't mean it's pointless. The Earth, on the other hand...
So, Krash... this (admittedly non-canon) lore is pointless why? NDA hoops too numerous to jump through? It's always worth it for Realmslore, even of the non-canonical sort. Really. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 02:40:15
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| I'd imagine likely because that draft of the Old North was written over and that explanation would be jarring with or conflict against the final product. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 03:52:05
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| So? We should be used to jarring and conflicting explanations in the Brave New Realms (TM) by now... what's one more? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 04:46:26
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Cute.
While good things come out of omissions and contradictions, there's no need to introduce more. |
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Pyramids under Ascore
