| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 03:56:34
|
Hi again, scribes. This time Ed tackles RodOdom’s queries: “The Realms is criss-crossed by immense spans of roads and trails. At night when people retire from travelling do roads serve land-bound monsters? Do roads connect monster populations in a significant way? Would a goblin in the Vast Swamp be able to direct a lost traveller to Suzail? (assuming the goblin is in an unusually civil mood.)”
Ed replies:
Yes, roads do serve land-bound monsters: as paths for travel where armed road-patrols are few or absent, as navigational aids (“follow the rabbit-proof fence”), and as sources of food (where there are roads, there are eventually settlements, and frequently encamped travellers).
Roads connect SOME monster populations in a significant way (intelligent creatures who by nature travel far rather than remaining stationary or moving only small distances. Flying beasts often use roads and rivers as navigational aids.
And yes (creatvmind’s hilarious “not too bright” goblin offering notwithstanding), most goblins in the Vast Swamp are intelligent and well-informed enough to know about the busy trade-road that passes nearby, which two countries it links, and the names and natures (“busy place, lots humans, markets stink bustle bustle bustle”) of the nearest major cities in each direction, along the road.
So saith Ed. However, other scribes chimed in helpfully, and in response RodOdom clarified and expanded his questions: “But are even the most busy roads used and patrolled at night?
What I asked, in an admittedly unclear way, is whether monsters would be so familiar with the roadways as to get around in Cormyr.
For example, would a goblin would know how to get from the Vast Swamp to his cousins in the Marsh of Tun by using the kingdom's roads?”
So Ed then replies:
The busiest roads in a FEW places (interior southern Cormyr and Sembia, for example, and everywhere in Thay) are used at night. Roads in many more places (such as Cormyr in “the heart” box bounded by High Horn, Arabel, Suzail, and Wheloon, plus all of the mountain passes) are patrolled by ready-for-war army units, even if not by caravans (lone peddlers always face the “camp and risk attack, or walk on with my two mules and hope for the best” choice, if they haven’t found an inn).
Most goblins in the Vast Swamp would know that the Marsh of Tun is “THAT way, past lots of busy humans in glittering armor and their castles - - and mountains, too!” A few senior goblins would know the way more precisely, and be able to scratch out a crude map of how the roads run, where settlements are, ways over or “through” (humans would say “under”) the mountains, and so on. A handful might have made the journey. Unless the Vast swamp was suddenly becoming far more dangerous for goblins than it usually is, no goblin would particularly want to.
So saith Ed. Who roleplays sneaksy, slyly sucking-up goblins to the hilt. Torm and Rathan just roll their eyes, these days, and gut the little beauties - - or pick them up and hurl them out the nearest window, or head-first into the nearest chamberpot and then sailing through the air into a handy dungeon room with a door that can be spiked shut.
love to all,
THO
P.S. For the above sentence, cue sound effect: Ed's nasal, wet goblin voice rising in pitch and speed, yammering away in rising fear as the goblin vainly pleads/cajoles/makes offers . . . and then (one way or another) is abruptly silent.
Ahhh, it makes a girl smile.
 |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 06 Aug 2006 03:59:07 |
 |
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 04:19:19
|
*blink*
There in another place been discussion of a Goblin Priestess of Eilistraee, it appears that such is not likely in Ed of Greenwood view?
Already have a Silver Dragon and Gnome Priestess, actually inherited a male Priest of the Dark Maiden as well (something I was reluckant to generate myself considering that dispute).
To expand question there was discussion about a hill giant becoming a Preistess as well. Yes another deity question I know, but here it is.
Are there any races that Eilistree will not acept clergy from, because of race? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 04:53:45
|
| Well, in older lore, Eilistraee didn't even accept male clerics... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 21:21:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
... actually inherited a male Priest of the Dark Maiden as well (something I was reluckant to generate myself considering that dispute).
Males are prohibited from Eilistraee's clergy in 2nd edition. There's no mention of a prohibition in 3rd. However, I *believe* Master Greenwood has spoken on this previously and said that the prohibition stands.
Fortunately there are an infinite number of alternate prime material planes. So there's sure to be one where Eilistraee decided to relax her rules a bit. :) And perhaps that prime is the setting for your campaign.
- RJ
|
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:05:17
|
Hello again, fellow scribes. This time Ed answers Skeptic, in the matter of something Ed said in these threads back in 2004: [[[It's very important that gamers not follow their real-world (usually monotheistic) thinking when considering Faerunian situations: the Realms is pantheistic, and "everyone knows" ALL the gods (at least of one's own race) "really exist." Unlike our real world, there's no denying that the folk praying to another god next door aren't just as correct as "we" are, because often "we" will also be praying to that other deity soon (if only for appeasement). The faith lies in believing this or that personal, dream-vision-induced, or priestly interpretation of the deity's will or intentions or prohibitions, not in believing the god exists.]]
Skeptic asks: “One of my players is asking me what exactly you mean by “everyone knows” and “really exist” ?
There is a subtle difference with “knows” and “everyone in the world believe”, what is the most correct one for describing it ? (Ex. “Earth is flat, Earth is round”). If it’s the first, which proofs are shown to them to make them knows ?
Let’s say it’s prayers' visibles effects: knowing that with spells, a wizard could mimic easily many “divine powers” (like raising dead with a Wish); wouldn’t it be possible for common folks to think that there is no Gods and only “wizards who thinks are doing faith-based miracles” ?
Let’s say it’s ToT : Some would argue that seeing Gods walking the land was the ultimate proof, but I doubt Ed were taking it into account in this answer. In the opposite case, it means that the relationship between mortals and Gods really changed during this RSE, if it’s the case, I would like to hear Ed about it.”
Ed replies:
All of the conditions you mention are possible for players and DMs employing real-world, modern-day thinking, in which belief in a deity (often a ‘supreme’ or lone deity) is often a matter of faith: believing in a Divine One of some sort through “faith.” That is, belief that for many individuals is bolstered more by sermons and interpretations provided by an organized priesthoods than by personal contact with the deity.
Things are different in the Realms. ALL intelligent beings, whether they worship any deity or not, are born and grow up “knowing” the gods are real, and that they manifest or even “walk among us” daily. EVERY intelligent being receives dream-visions that they believe are sent by the gods, among their other dreams. The nature of these visions makes it clear that they are divine in nature (an individual may need or want a priest’s interpretation of the meaning of a dream-vision, but does NOT need the priest to confirm it came from a god). In most cases in which an intelligent being prays fervently to a deity (i.e. really meaning the prayer, not cursing or saying something by rote with real attention on something else), there is a manifestation, even if only minor (tingling of excitement from Tymora, rosy glow inside one’s head from Lathander, the clang of sword on sword heard in one’s head from Tempus, and so on). In other words, the praying being KNOWS they’ve made contact (perhaps not been heard or heeded or agreed with, and perhaps only with a god’s aura or servitors rather than receiving the personal attention of the deity at that moment - - but they’ve been heard). Individuals who go to temples in which exalted [high-level] clergy perform exacting rituals (“super-prayers,” if you will, with sacrifices and beautiful, heart-felt devotions: dances and eloquent pleas and fervent worship) often witness larger and more spectacular manifestations visible to all (surging excitement throughout the very air, and every body of every person, in the temple of Tymora [similar but more lustily stirring sensations in temples of Sune, Sharess, and Loviatar, with differing “tinges,” of course]; a rosy glow in the air over the altar in a temple of Lathander; the sounds of battle [shouts, screams, the clang of steel, the thunder of hooves, war-trumpets] being heard out of empty air in a temple of Tempus, with the clang of emphatically crossing swords to mark agreement, recognition of a sacrifice or something promised in a prayer, and so on).
Certainly a cynic could say, “Ah, but it’s just the priests doing that with magical trickery! Sure, magic comes from the gods, but so do we all - - and wizards can get the power out of the gods without any of this fawning and obedience!” However, the cynic would have to ignore the dream-visions that come to him, even if he doesn’t pray. ALL of the gods are real (their power determined in part by the number and fervency of their worshippers), and the cynic would have to ignore all the signs he sees around him, daily, of the power of the gods (trees shooting up overnight from seeds blessed and planted by a priest that the cynic watched doing the planting, manifestations seen by many, and so on). The cynic could REJECT “the gods,” or A god, but that’s different than not believing in them.
In our real world, magic of the “instant whizzbang, I hurl my fireball” variety doesn’t exist. In the Realms it does. In like manner, deities of the “the Great Xoblob walks past, glowing, and I weep, wet myself, and tremble uncontrollably in the thrall of energies racing through me, just through being brushed past by his divine power” variety certainly don’t seem to have daily contact with most of us in the real world; if we believe they exist, we must take it on faith. Folks in the Realms receive far more “daily evidence” to bolster their belief, even if they never knowingly happen to touch or get close to, a deity.
The Time of Troubles wasn’t unique in that “gods walked the lands.” It was unique in that “Hey, everybody, they’re ALL here this time! And they’re upset! And they can’t go back to where they dwell! And they’re lessened in power, and they’re fighting each other! RUN FOR THE HILLS!”
It’s not that every last goblin or fishwife or elf-child goes through every day thinking they talk to the gods and the gods listen and personally reply; it’s that all of those beings cowers at the thought of ever personally coming to the personal attention of any deity, but knows all of the deities are at work around them, all the time, and are immensely powerful, and are best heeded (live life the way the priests say the god wants - - and keep a close eye on the tongues of those priests, who many after all from time to time twist things as we all do, eh? - - and we’ll be in good standing with the gods, and they’ll do right by us). Life in the Realms is a series of practical choices, forced by situations (“Must eat, so must get food”), and after that a series of moral choices (Chauntea would want me not to chase the raiding goblins across the newly-sewn field, but Helm and Torm and Tempus would all want me to get after them to make sure they don’t get away, so . . . whose creed do I cleave to first?”).
In the Realms as in our real world, there are many folk who ignore the gods (and certainly priesthoods and overt worship; aren’t the nightly parade of dream-visions, and what I say and do in my dreams in response, enough?) as much as possible and just try to get on with their lives. There are also “true believers” who turn to the veneration of one primary or patron god above all. Most folk are somewhere in the middle, praying when it’s prudent (and on special holy days or occasions such as weddings, funerals, and births) and in moments alone when they seek guidance or reassurance or a lifting of their spirits; the rest of the time, they (in the words of Rusgul the Smith) “let the gods see to the doings of the gods, while Rusgul sees to the livelihood and forge-work of Rusgul!”
Now for obvious reasons, with the United States as the primary market for the D&D game, the religious aspects of both the Realms and the religious environment postulated in the core D&D rules (from the beginning) have had to be de-emphasized.
Real people play this game, and decide to sell or ban or otherwise control access to the game by others, and so the game and its provider dare not offend the majority of said people. Moreover, to be heroes, characters (played by the game’s players) must be self-willed (as “destiny” and “divine meddling” increase, “free will” and therefore “the freedom to have fun and to act as we want to, and therefore to do heroic or evil things” decreases). Add in the roleplaying possibilities afforded by organized priesthoods (with their own corruption, internal intrigues, and political involvements in the fantasy landscapes D&D campaigns unfold in), and it becomes even more desirable to make the gods “fade into the background” and push their believers (plus devils and demons and other “nasty” servitors we can fight) into the foreground.
So anyone, player or DM, can be forgiven for saying, “But there’s nothing much in the printed rules or novels that says life is so gods-heavy in the Realms as all that!” That’s quite true. Yet the hints and more than hints are there in all of the gods-specific resources (FAITHS & AVATARS, et al). The extent to which you put active divine involvement into your game is left up to you. As it should be.
(However, to game designers like me who “think Realms” daily, the intial players’ questions you posted evoke a reaction along these lines: “Huh? How exactly does he ignore or dismiss his daily prayers, then? How can he even THINK such things?”)
So saith Ed. Offering fictitious pantheistic religious guidance to millions for more than two decades.
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:26:46
|
So the Faithless would basically be labeled as utterly delusional and insane in the Realms...
Nice. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:35:49
|
| Wonderful--I find the subject of religion in the real world fascinating, and it's nice to finally learn even more about how religious belief is dealt with in the Realms. Thanks Hooded One, an Ed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:41:09
|
All right, Ed, well met once again--I have a question for you. :)
A friend of mine recently asked me for some information about a place (now in ruins) called Harrowsmouth, which is referenced in the 2E Cult of the Dragon supplement. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about this place either, so I did some searching; apparently, the ruins are located in the southeastern Anauroch, but that's all the information I found, and my fellow scribes here didn't know much about this place either, and suggested I ask you about it. :)
My friend would very much appreciate it if you could give us some nice, juicy details about this region--as much as you like.
Thanks in advance,
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 21:30:17
|
THO,
I hope this is the right format to thank you for all your hard work. I am reading the 2004 replies for "ask Greenwood" as of late, and your stories of the knights deeds and the great fun you all had makes me so happy that I feel as if I am reading a book. And a damn good one too!  (I can't wait for Swords of Eveningstar!) By your writing on Ed and how he tries to make GenCon fun for every one I was really impressed. The amount of kindness Master Greenwood has shows in his writings, his deeds, and his great mentorship to so many great designers and writers. I am stunned into amazement.  Please let Greenwood know that I am damn proud to be gaming in Forgotten Realms and that he has my thanks (as do you THO). Keep up the great work! |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 00:31:36
|
Hello again, fellow scribes. This time Ed makes reply to Winterfox (and Lore Seeker, and Neriandal Freit and The Sage), about this (Winterfox’s query): “A general question, for Ed and anyone who wishes to answer: on the NWN board, a poster insisted that Faerun = roughly thirteenth-fourteenth century Earth. Rino and I said no, not really. Said poster replied with a quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the 1987 Forgotten Realms: Cyclopedia of the Realms by Ed Greenwood, Jeff Grubb, and Karen S. Martin:
The Forgotten Realms are a world very similar to the Earth of the 13th and 14th centuries. Most of the area under discussion here has until recently been covered by wild forests and unsettled grasslands. Civilization is still a novelty in much of this world...
The people of these realms (including man, dwarf, elf, gnome, and halfling) are similar in mindset and advancement to the men of the 13th century. City-states are common, and nations on the increase as more of the wild lands are pushed back and gathered under a single king or government... Literacy and the quest for knowledge in[sic] on the rise, with the recent introduction of printed hand-bills in Waterdeep.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoi?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lore Seeker added: This is how Wikipedia describes Faerun........
“Economically and technologically, Faerûn is comparable to Western Europe during the late middle ages. Gunpowder (here called smoke powder and different in its composition from historical gunpowder) is starting to make an appearance, but much of the armament is still dominated by swords, spears, bows, and the like. Most of the population consists of farmers, organized somewhat loosely in a semi-feudal system. There are also a number of notable cities, and trade between nations is common, comparable to the Renaissance era. Likewise, there are regions where more barbaric tribes and customs persist.”
I think the level of advancement of civilization varies from region to region but overall, the above description sounds relatively accurate. But I would think this is best left answered by the creator himself, Mr. Greenwood.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
and Winterfox responded: Well, to be sure, the discussion in question was more about language. The poster said he feels Middle English is the closest to the language used in Faerun because he thinks the Realms is comparable to 13-14th century Earth; I argued that the level of technology overall brings it closer to the Renaissance, and therefore closer to Early Modern English.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neriandal Freit chimed in: I'll go ahead and say it for everyone, Realms/Faerun IS NOT like nor is meant to appear like 13-14 century EARTH or ladder periods there of it.
Just because they have castle, robes and wars does not make it like that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Lore Seeker added: Ah, but now we must consider the varying dialects of English spoken. I assume it would vary just as greatly as it does here in the U.S. and other English speaking countries. Also, level of education in the different regions of Faerun would have a major impact on spoken English as well. For instance, I would think the average person living in Silverymoon would be much more well spoken than someone living in some small farming village or even a place like Ten Towns.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Sage summed up: Ed has repeatedly said that Faerun is mostly not based on -- or rather similiar to -- Earth cultures, except for the parts that TSR added on. His most recent discussions on this are in the '06 replies.
-- Now, fellow scribes... let's try to keep the "Realms is comparable" discussions to another scroll and leave this one dedicated just to questions for Ed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whew. Ed replies:
As I’ve said many a time before, here at Candlekeep and elsewhere, trying to view the Realms in terms of real-world history just doesn’t work, except on a personal level. The text Winterfox cited, from the Cyclopedia (and not written by me) is doing just that personal level thing: it’s attempting to explain “what the Realms is” to someone completely unfamiliar with it, and possibly new to fantasy roleplaying. It’s akin to a history teacher drawing a swift analogy (“think Venice, only without the canals” ) and is as inaccurate and invalid on the level of specific details as all such analogies.
Where real-world comparisons break down, always (leading us, on Internet discussions, down sidetracks into arguments about Roman battlefield superiority or ancient Chinese medicine or the advent of stirrups in warfare or “what if the Nazis had done thus and so” debates), is when we move beyond the personal level of helping someone understand “the basics” about the Realms into using real-world comparisons in wider discussions among gamers. I realize that inevitably we must and will make real-world comparisons - - or comparisons to what we think we know of Earth history (or other fantasy settings, like Middle-Earth) from what we’ve seen at the movies or read in books - - because we’ve got to have SOME frame of reference to understand this elephant all we blind people are trying to examine, and the real world is what we all share. The problem is, we don’t all share the same experience of it. My schooling can’t be replicated by posters at Candlekeep because most of my professors are dead now, for one thing. :}
Neriandal Freit is quite right to say that the Realms isn’t like any historical period of Earth (and how can it be? We lack zap-bang magic, dragons, and truckloads of summonable monsters, just to name three factors in passing), and was never intended to be viewed in that way. “Technology” and “social advancement” (and please note that those terms in and of themselves betray real-world value judgements; folk in Faerûn, particularly survivors from Netheril, may disagree sharply with the notion that the passage of time brings “progress”) does indeed vary from place to place in the Realms, as Lore Seeker pointed out, and does indeed seem more Renaissance than medieval (as Winterfox and Rinonalyrna Fathomlin quite correctly argued on the NWN board) in some locales and regions.
However, huge chunks of Realms real estate ARE “sorta” like “roughly thirteenth-fourteenth century Earth.” And as the text in the Cyclopedia said, literacy IS on the rise (as overland trade increases in number of travellers, amount of goods carried, and penetration of trade routes deeper and deeper into “neglected” hinterlands), in the short-term “peace” between orc hordes and “really big Realms-shaking disasters.” City-states ARE the most common form of “civilized” society.
The problem comes when one tries to move from shorthand understandings of the Realms to specifics. “Oh, so if they’ve got city-states, they must have X, BECAUSE THEY DID IN OUR REAL WORLD.” The “because” just doesn’t follow, in many cases.
Here, Winterfox, you’ve presented me with a classic case of that “next step:” the debate on NWN board about real-world languages because of views of the “state of advancement” in the Realms.
Unfortunately for everyone concerned, it just doesn’t follow (no matter what the factors, unless they happened to be a large-scale invasion of people through a gate/oops, portal, from England “back in the day”) that written or spoke tongues in the Realms would be closer to Middle English or Early Modern English - - or Old High Norse, for that matter.
Our real world doesn’t and didn’t have long-lived, very “civilized” elves (or dragons, or dwarves) living with, around, and among humans, in many cases “there first” before the humans, and using their own languages regardless of what humans did. In the case of the Realms, one of course in North America equates the Common Tongue with English, and the Common Tongue has spread because of the high birth rate and energetic travels and settlings of humans, and the ongoing trade-travelling that goes on among human-dominated settlements. One can argue that this is analogous to the real-world spread of English through exploration and colonization and the timing of the British Empire (and the spread of Christianity, for that matter), but of course the Realms has no monotheism and has had many empires, most of them non-human - - and one must scramble to find common factors between the Realms and the real-world. Like much academic debate, arguments tend to be made by ignoring elements that don’t fit one’s views or hypotheses, and linking together (into increasingly flimsy and grandiose castles in the air) those that do.
Not that I’m blaming any scribes for holding such views. Unless you’re part of my original gaming group, there’s no way your experience of the Realms can be of anything but the published Realms - - and someone who reads ALL the Realms novels and game products will find many instances of overt real-world elements and even people (e.g. the Dalai Lama!), authors assuming real-world customs and inventions and habits, and so on. Some of these make me more than roll my eyes and gnash my teeth, but - - they’re done. Moreover, from the beginning of the published Realms (check Jim Lowder’s posts here, about being assigned to edit out my Realms dialect writing from SPELLFIRE), there’s been the practical necessity of changing my personal fantasy world to something twelve-year-old American males who just want a good fast adventure read to enrich their enjoyment of the game stuff they’re buying (TSR’s original target audience, remember), will be able to understand enough to enjoy. I’m not disagreeing with this necessity (Jim has often told the tale of having to explain what my line of dialogue for Elminster meant to fellow staffers: “Think ye me a codloose winker?”). I’m pointing out that the “prithees” and “Good my lord, how dost thou, I trow?” elements have largely gone away, in printed Realms fiction, in favour of “Yup. Nope. And one for my horse, too!” plain, “everyday” emphatic American speech. It may help clarity in storytelling, but on the other hand if we were all wading through largely impenetrable Realms novels with huge glossaries at the back to guide us through the dialogue, I suspect Winterfox and Rinonalyrna Fathomlin could never have found themselves in such a debate about which version of “heritage English” is prevalent in the Realms, or that Realms languages are “closest to.”
When it comes to languages, Lore Seeker said it best when he pointed out that local variances in education, dialect, and interaction with “the wider Realms” are going to create so many differences in language complexity and usage from place to place that trying to decide if an overall level or structure of language is like “Middle or Early Modern anything” is . . . largely pointless, and difficult to reach agreement on, anyway.
I completely disagree with the “economically” and “semi-feudal” wording in the Wikipedia quote, by the way - - but agree that as a “this isn’t, strictly speaking, true, but if you think of it in this way, you’ll ‘get it’ in overall outline; just don’t trust it on a details level” description, the Wiki entry, as quoted, works. That’s the problem with truly detailed worldbuilding: in one key respect the Realms IS identical to our real world: it’s so complex, and can be viewed in so many ways from so many starting sets of values and understandings, that it’s just as subject to furious debate as our real world is. All too often. :}
What’s deeply ironic to me is that this very discussion is one I had with Jeff and Karen back in 1986, as they gently told me that this or that aspect of the Realms was going to have to “go away” or “change” to fit TSR’s needs in adapting the Realms to D&D. As an old museum guard used to say in my childhood in Toronto: “Nothing new to see here, folks; move along, move along . . .”
So saith Ed. Prithee, sainted Master Mine, wilt thou do me the deepest honour of a backrub, when next we meet in fleshly directness? (Oh, yeah, one more thing: your turn to provide the wine, big boy.)
P.S. Realmslore returneth after GenCon. A few days after GenCon, that is, folks; Ed drives to the con and back, visits with family along the way, drops by Stratford to take in some plays (and shop!), and usually dives deep into extra projects or glitches he gets told about at the con.
Ed hopes to arrive in Indy Wednesday, but has meetings and dinners and ceremonies (yep, all three!) waiting for him, if he gets there in time (to say nothing of the usual shlepping of bags up to the hotel room, and then wandering off to wait in line forever for his con badge), so he doesn’t know if he’ll be able to say hi to any Candlekeep scribes that night. However, if you can catch him anytime after that until late Sunday night . . .
P.P.S. To confirm: yes, Zanan, the yochlol are Gary Gygax’s creation, and would be “core Greyhawk” because that’s all there was, at the time.
P.P.P.S. Oh, and to Rinonalyrna Fathomlin: no, I don’t know what sort of fungus that was, and Ed can’t remember, either. Yes, it IS creepy. With none of the fun of the other thing we used to do when camping (try this ONLY if you don’t mind insects crawling on you): the guys used to catch fireflies in jars, and after dark gently insinuate them, by hand, deep into the hair of gals who had long, flowing hair (which was most of us, in the 60s and 70s). The visual effect of the bugs flaring into full radiance, on a lass (like, ahem, me) sitting in the forested darkness, could be stunningly beautiful. Ah, those were the days . . .
P.P.P.P.S. Wandering mage, you're very welcome. * I * can't wait until the Knights trilogy advances chronologically to where we're in Shadowdale, and Torm and Rathan are in on the fun . . .
I'll pass your thanks on to Ed straightaway. 
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 00:58:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
We lack zap-bang magic, dragons, and truckloads of summonable monsters, just to name three factors in passing)
Im going to have to disagree with Ed here
What about Nuclear weapons, Ex Wives/Girlfriends and Lawyers?
*chuckle*
|
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 01:19:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello again, fellow scribes. This time Ed makes reply to Winterfox (and Lore Seeker, and Neriandal Freit and The Sage)...
Thanks Ed.
This particular reply is going in the Candlekeep FR FAQ... along with your "Mary Sue" replies. It'll be on hand and ready to post, just like your other similar replies, each time this type of topic comes up here and over at WotC.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 01:59:38
|
quote:
quote:Originally posted by The Hooded One
We lack zap-bang magic, dragons, and truckloads of summonable monsters, just to name three factors in passing)
Im going to have to disagree with Ed here
What about Nuclear weapons, Ex Wives/Girlfriends and Lawyers?
EvilKnight |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 02:56:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
P.P.P.S. Oh, and to Rinonalyrna Fathomlin: no, I don’t know what sort of fungus that was, and Ed can’t remember, either. Yes, it IS creepy. With none of the fun of the other thing we used to do when camping (try this ONLY if you don’t mind insects crawling on you): the guys used to catch fireflies in jars, and after dark gently insinuate them, by hand, deep into the hair of gals who had long, flowing hair (which was most of us, in the 60s and 70s). The visual effect of the bugs flaring into full radiance, on a lass (like, ahem, me) sitting in the forested darkness, could be stunningly beautiful. Ah, those were the days . . .
Hmmm, when I was younger I used to catch fireflies with my hands and let them crawl on me a bit, so perhaps I wouldn't mind that (though my hair is shoulder length)...
And I have to say, that answer Ed just gave us is wonderful, and very informative. Thank him for me, and thank you for bringing it to us. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 03:11:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Wonderful--I find the subject of religion in the real world fascinating, and it's nice to finally learn even more about how religious belief is dealt with in the Realms. Thanks Hooded One, an Ed.
Thanks for such a detailed answer to Ed,
If we are lucky, we'll get again some religious details because that was the 1/3 question about it I recently posted here.
P.S. For THO : If the difference between this one and the one where I put the last sentence of the 2004 in bold isn't clear for Ed, I can edit it. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 08 Aug 2006 03:19:43 |
|
|
|
Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 12:46:18
|
Greetings once again to the Sage Greenwood and the Lovely Lady Herald of Realmslore.
This time I come bringing two queries.
1. Continuing my (or Ed's, really) exploration of the Chondathan language, would it be possible to get the Chondathan names of the various noble titles used in Cormyr (along with the English word they most closely equate to)?
2. A question that ties in loosely with the question Skeptic had answered on August 7th - which "churches" have the most active internal theological debates?, and about which topics?
(I realise the answer to the second one could probably fill a series of sourcebooks, but if I had to choose one religious group to be enlightened about I'd probably prefer the followers of Sune, but you pick yourself)
Oh, and have fun/hope you had fun at GenCon. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
|
|
|
Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:03:36
|
Dear Ed,
I've been wondering if you possibly have any lore about Zund, the creator of Zundbridge, since in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast there is only some lore about the bridge itself. |
Edited by - Verghityax on 08 Aug 2006 22:01:22 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:52:55
|
Fellow scribes,
Can we please try to keep the non-Ed-question posts to a minimum? It's cluttering the scroll and making it difficult for both scribes and visitors to these halls to find the replies they're looking for. If you have something to add to what another scribe has said, or something that doesn't directly relate with what Ed has said earlier... take it to another scroll or send a PM.
I don't want to get on any one scribe's case here, as we've all done it from time to time. It just seems to be fairly regular at the moment. So, again, let's keep those types of replies to a minimum.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Aug 2006 16:54:05 |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 00:23:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Greetings once again to the Sage Greenwood and the Lovely Lady Herald of Realmslore.
This time I come bringing two queries.
1. Continuing my (or Ed's, really) exploration of the Chondathan language, would it be possible to get the Chondathan names of the various noble titles used in Cormyr (along with the English word they most closely equate to)?
2. A question that ties in loosely with the question Skeptic had answered on August 7th - which "churches" have the most active internal theological debates?, and about which topics?
(I realise the answer to the second one could probably fill a series of sourcebooks, but if I had to choose one religious group to be enlightened about I'd probably prefer the followers of Sune, but you pick yourself)
Oh, and have fun/hope you had fun at GenCon.
I second the first question! |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Jerryd
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:28:25
|
I'd like to third the first question, and add a few of my own regarding Cormyr's nobility! (These questions have been in my own stack for a long time, and this seems an appropriate time.)
Power of Faerûn discusss the generalities about how noble titles are earned — mainly, by pleasing or aiding the ruler in a big way. That's pretty vague and broad, though, and there are a variety of titles that could be awarded. First there are the hereditary versus the extraordinary (or life) titles, then there are the specific titles: dukes/duchesses, marquesses(marquis?margraves?)/marchionesses, earls/counts/countesses, viscounts/vicountesses, and barons/baronesses. Let's say that the king decides to grant a title to someone who has 'pleased him in some big way'. Great. Now, what factors go into deciding *which* title will be granted, and whether it'll be ordinary or extraordinary? What criteria make the difference between ennobling the person as a duke versus a marquess? What factors lead the king to think 'I'll make him an earl instead of a baron'? The degree of the pleasure or service? The size or value of the lands either granted or already owned? How badly the ennobling will annoy someone the king doesn't like? Or (facetiously speaking) how many bastards the king sired upon the ennobled man's wife? :) All of the above?
Then, once the man has the title (let's say earl just for example), what does that mean, exactly, in comparison to dukes or barons? We know that Cormyr is not a feudal kingdom — all power and authority comes straight from the king. It's my impression that nobles of higher status (like dukes) cannot enforce orders or decrees on nobles of lesser status (like barons) solely by virtue of their title; there's no legal power or authority of one noble over any other noble just because one has a higher title. Does that mean that the hierarchy of titles is solely a social convention or matter of etiquette — who stands first in the reception line, who enters and leaves the carriage first, who sits closer to the king at the banquet table, the degree of the elevation of the nose one is socially entitled to? If specific noble titles grant more privilege than mere social status yet not any power to enforce one's will upon lesser nobles, then what other intermediate privileges or perqs distinguish each level of nobility?
Then about the earls and barons. In real-world noble hierarchies, earls and barons are equivalent and regional - earls are primarily Anglo-Saxon, while barons are primarily continental. Both are used as Cormyrean titles in Realmslore, however. In Cormyr, how do ears and barons differ? Are they still equivalent, or does one have higher perecedence than the other?
Finally, in Power of Faerûn several members of the Belorgan family are mentioned, in particular one Raedlar ("Red") Belorgan, and Red is specifically spoken of as still being alive. However, in chapter 29 of Cormyr: A Novel he is clearly killed after a failed attempt to assassinate Tanalasta. Surely he wouldn't be allowed to be resurrected, given that (a) he attempted to commit an act of high treason and (b) it's against the law in Cormyr to raise nobles?
|
|
|
|
Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:33:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jerryd
Then about the earls and barons. In real-world noble hierarchies, earls and barons are equivalent and regional - earls are primarily Anglo-Saxon, while barons are primarily continental. Both are used as Cormyrean titles in Realmslore, however. In Cormyr, how do ears and barons differ? Are they still equivalent, or does one have higher perecedence than the other?
Leaving the meatier questions to Ed, and assuming that you mean earls and counts, my explanation (which may not be the one Ed gives) is as follows:
While technically equivalent in rank and precendence, earls have the slight edge in status, the reason being that "count" is not a native Cormyrean title. Rather, it is a legacy title from one of other realms absorbed into the Forest Kingdom over the centuries (Esparin or Marsember; Arabel never developed a structured, independent nobility before being incorporated into Cormyr the first time around). Families whose ancestral title was Count of X retain that naming (Bhela, for example), but new titles are earls (such as the new Earl of Starwater). Families native to Marsember (like the Scorils or Eldroons) are more likely to be counts than earls, if their rank on joining the nobility of Cormyr was high enough.
Since the old blood families see 'foreign' nobles--older or not--as less than they are, earls of Cormyr tend to look down, at least a bit, on counts.
Note that this arrangement would mean that lesser nobles of the Marliir clan--beneath the patriarch, Duke Raynar Marliir--might have a count or two among them, but no earls, they having been the rulers of Marsember before its absorption in 1227DR.
As for the whole marquess/marquis/margrave thing, I use "marchion," personally. |
|
|
|
Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 14:48:37
|
Well, I quote myself incase if my question was missed (I would be glad also if told that Ed cannot answer my question because of some contract agreement). I excusme my poor typing and perhaps grammar mistakes in my post :(. I write poorly even in my own native language :P.
quote:
Originally posted by Kazzaroth
Hello Ed and THO,
I have (severall) question regarding Talfirs and about my own theory and quesses. There was not much information about Talfirs in Races of Faerun and when checking on the map I noticed the Talfirs old territory according Empires of Faerun resided south from Evermeet and so far in that area is marked grey, meaning area does not belong any city nor nation according the basic Campaing Setting book. Is there particullar reason for that? I did not find much information about Reach Woods and Reach River either.
So, question is more that did Talfirs somehow 'meld' into Tethyrian tribal population when it almost literally swarmed over in their world wide wandering (explaining bit why Tethyrians have Talfir Song bardic tradition). But anycase I wondered about more of Talfirs customs and their history and how Shadowking was viewed in that time. Thanks appearance Shadow Magic in Tome of Magic I wondered was Shadowking practioner of that art (and was it part of Talfirs tribal culture)?
If that is so, then I am intrested to know how present Faerun someone learns shadow magic or does some few selected arcanists research plane magic to learn it and use it or research about legends of Shadowking etc. So how shadow magic would be viewed in Faerun in generall and can common/most folk mistake shadow magic to shadow weave magic (which in this case are two sepparated things)?
|
|
|
|
RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 16:07:21
|
Dear Ed and Lady THO,
How are the mentally handicapped viewed in the Realms? Have any of them had any roles of historical note? |
|
|
|
Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 16:43:52
|
| well Rod ... one of Elminsters uncles suffered from megalomania |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
|
|
|
RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 16:47:05
|
| Ah, right. I was thinking more in terms of what we would call today as "developmentally challenged" rather than mentally ill. But that is interesting too. |
|
|
|
Randal_Dundragon
Seeker
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 20:43:32
|
Hi all, im a bit new to the board but i decided i liked the way this place feels so i think ill give her a try...
Anyway, Ed i have a question in regards to Cormyr.
With all the wars and betrayels and everything else thats been going on there how has that effected the nation and its people. How are people handling it and what are they doing to rebuild it? are the former orcish and goblin armies and troops still at large around the country or have they been pretty much taken care of?
I have more questions but i dont want to take up to much of this board.
P.S sorry if this has been awnserd before, like i said fairly new here so i havnt had a chance to peruese the forums as much.
Thanks in advance :D |
Its simple really, Your an idiot and I'm simply a figment of your imagination |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 21:09:13
|
Not Ed, but will offer one posible answer to "developmentally challenged" with the cavert it Depends on the culture.
With a magic rich world and herbs that actually work with great degree of certaincy, those afflicted are cured (Some societies though will kill instead). Remember this is a world of 95 percent litericy (if not higher) and magic uses make tomes to increase stats, able to regenerate, reincarnate and apply lessor cures. Ed has indicated the the Chosen are insane because of their long life but nobody is trying to put them in a home *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 11 Aug 2006 21:10:43 |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 00:20:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kazzaroth
Well, I quote myself incase if my question was missed (I would be glad also if told that Ed cannot answer my question because of some contract agreement). I excusme my poor typing and perhaps grammar mistakes in my post :(. I write poorly even in my own native language :P.
Please be patient... Ed has a big pile of questions to be answered, and sometimes the answers lie buried somewhere in an endless heap of boxes in his cellar, so he literally has to "delve" into a dungeon and search through thousands of old papers to find the correct one(s). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 15:23:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Kazzaroth
Well, I quote myself incase if my question was missed (I would be glad also if told that Ed cannot answer my question because of some contract agreement). I excusme my poor typing and perhaps grammar mistakes in my post :(. I write poorly even in my own native language :P.
Please be patient... Ed has a big pile of questions to be answered, and sometimes the answers lie buried somewhere in an endless heap of boxes in his cellar, so he literally has to "delve" into a dungeon and search through thousands of old papers to find the correct one(s).
Ok, I will wait then :). |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 01:13:19
|
Found this one floating in the aether:-
quote:
Originally posted by KarenG
Gentlesir,
First, thank you for the world, I've been a fan for many years, and have many of the game products, but have yet to DM in the world (I'm just starting my first time as DM in any world - and it will be in Faerun).
I've just found this site while researching the campaign area for this campaign (Giant's Plain and the eastern edge of The Greenfields, where Comyr noble wannabe's are trying to carve out some new holds and exploit the natural resources).
I'm trying to find more info on lost empire of Arunduth (Lost Empires of Faerun - on the map but there appears to be no information), and the Dodkong of Cairnheim's "crown of Obadai" (Underdark - again, I can't seem to find any further information), both of which I hope to use in my campaign.
Is there somewhere I didn't find with more info on either of these topics?
Thank you, sir.
Karen G.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Questions for Ed Greenwood (2006)
Topic Locked
