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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2006 : 05:10:33
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Bugger,
I was going to bug you about that private lore since it was a couple of months ago that you said a month. Ah well. :( I just hope I get it before Gencon. :)
But my thanks on the make-up reply. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Apr 2006 05:12:12 |
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Akashayana
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2006 : 07:22:03
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Hey there again.
If possible, I'd like to ask Mr. Greenwood if he would reveal a bit more than is currently printed on the Raurin Desert. Not its gloriously devastated ancient history, but rather how it and its surrounding mountain ranges have developed since. I am especially curious about the creatures and general ecology of the area.
Has the wrath of the Mulhorandi gods made the area completely uninhabitable? Do desert folk reside therein despite the dragons, sandstorms, and frequent lightning strikes?
Any information would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you.
-Tlazcotl |
-America is the only country in history to go from barbarism to decadence without civilization inbetween. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 01:29:51
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Hi, all! A mundane technical reply this time, from me to this from Dargoth: “Hooded One: Do you and Ed have Excel? (Or a means of viewing Excel Spreadsheets?)”
Sorry, no. Ed primarily works in Word (not Office) on old (pre-OS 9) Macs, and for security reasons I can’t touch anything Microsoft. We can both read anything made into a .pdf in older versions of Adobe Acrobat, but not if they require Reader 6 or up.
No, we’re not Luddites; I in fact customarily work in betas and proprietary applications and operating system variants that haven’t yet been (or will never be) released to the public. We both deliberately prevent cross-contamination, viruses, etc. by working with Mac-only software too old and simple to permit most problems from occurring.
Ed tells me that many Word tables I send him leap off his monitor (columns of cells placing themselves to the right of his scrollable margins), and he can only read them by selecting the text and “squashing” the table into incoherence, and then trying to sort it out by context.
So whatever you were going to try to send him, Dargoth, it’s probably simpler not to. Please remember our Ed is perhaps the busiest writer alive; I feel guilty enough about how much of his time answering scribes’ Realmslore queries that I pass on to him is taking, already.
And to Julian Grimm, who asked “. . . I was wondering how close the original Undermountain boxed set was to your home Undermountain,” Ed and I have recently answered this exact query, here at Candlekeep.
love to all,
THO
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 04:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, all! A mundane technical reply this time, from me to this from Dargoth: “Hooded One: Do you and Ed have Excel? (Or a means of viewing Excel Spreadsheets?)”
Sorry, no. Ed primarily works in Word (not Office) on old (pre-OS 9) Macs, and for security reasons I can’t touch anything Microsoft. We can both read anything made into a .pdf in older versions of Adobe Acrobat, but not if they require Reader 6 or up.
No, we’re not Luddites; I in fact customarily work in betas and proprietary applications and operating system variants that haven’t yet been (or will never be) released to the public. We both deliberately prevent cross-contamination, viruses, etc. by working with Mac-only software too old and simple to permit most problems from occurring.
Ed tells me that many Word tables I send him leap off his monitor (columns of cells placing themselves to the right of his scrollable margins), and he can only read them by selecting the text and “squashing” the table into incoherence, and then trying to sort it out by context.
So whatever you were going to try to send him, Dargoth, it’s probably simpler not to. Please remember our Ed is perhaps the busiest writer alive; I feel guilty enough about how much of his time answering scribes’ Realmslore queries that I pass on to him is taking, already.
And to Julian Grimm, who asked “. . . I was wondering how close the original Undermountain boxed set was to your home Undermountain,” Ed and I have recently answered this exact query, here at Candlekeep.
love to all,
THO
Hmm that may make things a bit difficult
I wasnt going to send Ed anything but I was going to ask him a question which would probably been easiest answered in the form of an Spreadsheet or Table format
What I was going to ask was if Ed could briefly describe the relationships between the various Noble houses of Waterdeep
I thought the best way to do this would be to use a Table or spreadsheet format with the Noble houses listed along the X and Y axis
For example if you looked along the Table on the row for the the Cassalanter family and looked over to were there row intersected with the Cragsmere family you might put the code BR for Buisness rival (Both the Cassalanter and Cragsmere families have money lending listed as Trades and interests in Eric Boyds)
While if you looked at the Gundwynds vs Gost or Ilvastarr vs Belabrantan they might have BF for Blood Feud etc |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 17:03:18
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Purple Dragon Knight posted this on a different thread here on Candlekeep.
"To Eric or Ed (through THO):
I know this is a last minute question, as I would need the answer within the next 10 hours (i.e. I am DMing the next instalment of my campaign tonight, 7pm Eastern Time), so I will completely understand if this comes later, and will adapt my game accordingly.
Basically, I looked into the Law section of City of Splendors to find out what kind of sentences could result of the improper use of magic in the streets of Waterdeep. Basically, a chimera broke loose of a cage, which was part of a menagerie headed towards the Field of Triumph. Of course, the PCs stepped in front of the crowd to protect them. The wizard, not so much... and while staying behind the crowd, flung an ice storm at the chimera, aiming the best he could through the gaps offered by the moving crowd. Turns out that due to the poor visibility, he did not notice three circus folks surrounding the chimera from the other side, wielding long poking sticks. They froze to death when the maximized ice storm materialized on the chimera, them and the front part of a shop.
What would be the sentence for such an act, keeping in mind that dozens of witnesses gave statements to the City Watch, and keeping in mind that the menagerie owner did NOT press charge or complain against the PCs?" |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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rweston
Acolyte
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 21:08:43
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Greetings to Ed & THO.
I hope all is well with you both.
I have followup query on a question answered earlier this year.
The original query asked if a priest of bane could "hide" his holy symbol/allegience to Bane when casting spells - the answer being "no" to any spells above 2nd level (which makes perfect sense).
I did however wonder about priests of gods like Mask or Liera. Would they be the exception to the rule, given thier portfolios of theft, sneakiness, deception, lies & illusion?
I loved all the realmslore in Powers of Faerun. I kept turning the page going "what does that have to do with this chapter?" and then quickly realized you were sneaking in as much color & lore as you could. Thanks, this is probably my favorite release since the Grey Box and Waterdeep & the North.
Also, because I don't think we can say it enough, thanks to you both for all the time you take out every week crafting answers to our queries. THO the time you take to read the board, collect queries, fire them off to Ed & then post replies on daily basis, it's very generous.
Rory |
Grey Box sensibilities
3.x rules |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 22:03:29
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Ed Comes Through!
Kuje, please forward this to Purple Dragon Knight, hot off Ed's keyboard:
Sentencing depends on Pc's contrition (or lack thereof) in court. Here's the best possible outcome: guilty on three counts of Murder With Justification, and three counts of Magical Assault. Result: exile from Waterdeep for 10 years total for the first three, and damages of 2000 gp payable by the PC wizard to the kin/survivors of the three dead circus folk (payable to the circus in lieu, if no kin or can't easily be found). So, 2000 times three. If the PC can't pay, forfeiture of all goods to kin (failing that: circus), plus a year of (supervised)spellcasting in service to Waterdeep (in effect, PC becomes unpaid employee/servant, does some adventuring/monster cleanup in Undermountain, and casts spells for coin, coin then turned over to kin/circus (full year, coin in excess of 2000 each is considered interest on delayed payment of court fine).
If PC behaves just right, impresses Palace official, can be parlayed into real job (rest of PCs allowed to tag along IF they behave).
Good luck!
Ed
And there you have it. More Realmslore as usual, later . . .
love to all,
THO |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 22:47:55
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| Thanks Ed and THO. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 23:10:00
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Kuje, a postscript: Ed didn't mention it, but it's obvious to me as a player in his campaign: the exile would begin after the other punishments (so after the fine payments or the year of service). And if the Palace officials Ed mentions are pleased enough with the PC wizard, the exile would just be quietly forgotten (assuming the aggrieved kin and/or the circus aren't dwelling in Waterdeep). He did just this once, with a PC from the Company of Crazed Venturers.
love,
THO |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 23:29:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed Comes Through!
Kuje, please forward this to Purple Dragon Knight, hot off Ed's keyboard:
Sentencing depends on Pc's contrition (or lack thereof) in court. Here's the best possible outcome: guilty on three counts of Murder With Justification, and three counts of Magical Assault. Result: exile from Waterdeep for 10 years total for the first three, and damages of 2000 gp payable by the PC wizard to the kin/survivors of the three dead circus folk (payable to the circus in lieu, if no kin or can't easily be found). So, 2000 times three. If the PC can't pay, forfeiture of all goods to kin (failing that: circus), plus a year of (supervised)spellcasting in service to Waterdeep (in effect, PC becomes unpaid employee/servant, does some adventuring/monster cleanup in Undermountain, and casts spells for coin, coin then turned over to kin/circus (full year, coin in excess of 2000 each is considered interest on delayed payment of court fine).
If PC behaves just right, impresses Palace official, can be parlayed into real job (rest of PCs allowed to tag along IF they behave).
Good luck!
Ed
And there you have it. More Realmslore as usual, later . . .
love to all,
THO
ROTFLMAO!! Hi Hi Hi! [giggling like a little girl at this point, quite atypical for a senior member of the Purple Dragons...]
Onomatopées aside, thank you! thank you! thank you! thank you! |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 23:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Kuje, a postscript: Ed didn't mention it, but it's obvious to me as a player in his campaign: the exile would begin after the other punishments (so after the fine payments or the year of service). And if the Palace officials Ed mentions are pleased enough with the PC wizard, the exile would just be quietly forgotten (assuming the aggrieved kin and/or the circus aren't dwelling in Waterdeep). He did just this once, with a PC from the Company of Crazed Venturers.
love,
THO
[actually crying a little here... tears of joy, of course...] Oh, and did I mention the wizard is a lightfoot halfling? I can't wait to see his face when his fellow carnies present him with his new, tailor-made, tiny little clown suit! [thunderous, bellowing mind-laughter, now...] |
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rweston
Acolyte
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 00:31:58
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Purple Dragon Knight,
I could be misreading your comments if so - ignore this.
It sounds like you're interpreting that the character would be in service to the circus if he could not pay the fine.
From my reading of the above(and my waterdeep & the North) the PC would be in service to Waterdeep city for a year (assuming he could not pay the fine), and any coin he earns during that time would be turned over to the circus.
It seems the dead carnies kin/and or the circus just get paid off - the city itself gets the benefit of any service, it seems unlikely that the magisters of the city would sentence the wizard to serving the circus as a clown.
Rory Weston |
Grey Box sensibilities
3.x rules |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 00:41:11
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Oh, Rory, you're right, but this is rich! I handed it on to Ed, who also roared with laughter and said:
Go for it. Who knows which Black Robe is on the bench this night? Wait, I've got it: the ten years of exile is WITH THE CIRCUS. Yesss!
So saith Ed. Giggling here, too.
love,
THO |
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rweston
Acolyte
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 00:56:42
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I was worried there was a misreading of the lore. I blame Denier.
I did think it was funny though.
A whisper as you enter the court:
"oh no you're in for it now. Magister Stone...crap he's usually on the night bench. They call him the "Halaster of the Bench" cause you never know what he's going to do..."
Rory
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Grey Box sensibilities
3.x rules |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 03:37:13
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Hi, all. This arrived in my e-inbox from Ed, so I’m turning the floor (or table, or wherever he prefers - - purr - - over to him):
To Rowan and Faraer: well, yes, we are celebrating those anniversaries: by finally writing and releasing what should have been the very first published Realms novel, way back when. Actually, that’s what I’m hoping all readers of SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR do: pretend as they open the book that it’s their first glimpse of the Realms, with what we now call the Old Gray Box promised at their local hobby store one week from now . . .
(ripple of harp strings)
And I was still young and slender, my hair dark, my smile bright, comely lasses flocking to me . . .
(twanging cacophony of breaking strings)
As the Lovely Lady Hooded would say: Ahem.
To Kuje: Sorry. Please hang in there. Things are so busy on the writing front right now that the impending visit of family at Easter and the looming, many-clawed darkness of Taxes are going to hit me unexpectedly - - even though I’m expecting them. Sigh. I want to do a proper job with what you’ve sent me, so I need to carve out at least two days to deal with that - - and there are three different parties who’ve been waiting for me to deal with THEM for far longer than you have. I need clones; WHERE ARE MY CLONES? (Send in the clones . . .)
Well before GenCon. Promise.
Which reminds me: Spin A Yarn needs to be written, too. Gulp.
To Dargoth: that’s a good idea (plotting the relationships between the various noble houses of Waterdeep on an X and Y axis), but I’m afraid it just wouldn’t work. You’re oversimplifying, I’m afraid, because only a very few houses have such a strong leader that they speak and act with one voice (in Oz, despite having various autocrats as prime ministers, you never seem to get governments that always speak calmly with one unified voice, right?). Most Waterhavian noble families have a dominant matriarch or patriarch who speaks for the house and swaggers in public, but if that head of the house doesn’t reach agreement in private with spouse, a dowager mom if one exists, and any number of uncles, aunts, brothers, and sisters, all of those other family members are going to “do their own thing,” often spending family money or wielding family investments as part of it. It’s the norm for there to be money and policy struggles behind closed doors - - and for the losers to just become more covert in their defiance of the winners. So almost NO family can be plotted neatly in one place or position on such a spreadsheet: individual family members will be scattered (e.g. a brother having a deadly feud with a man of family X, whilst his older sister is having an affair with that man’s mother - - and his younger sister is having an affair with that man). It’s also oversimplifying, as you did with the Cassalanters and Cragsmeres, to assume that two families sharing the same fields of activity are necessarily Business Rivals. In many cases, they drew up private pacts, sometimes over a century ago, to geographically (or by specific product) divide the field between them, to co-exist rather than compete (remember: unlike our modern real world, there are no laws against such practices - - and despite the laws, such behaviour happens all the time in our modern real world). And a last kick at your idea: any such chart would be at best a snapshot of a moment in time, out of date the moment it was done.
Most of the adventuring and roleplaying fun of a Waterdeep-based campaign is the everchanging, sometimes swiftly-shifting nature of alliances, positions, viewpoints, and attitudes among the nobles and the wealthiest wannabe-noble merchant families, and you can REALLY entertain your players by having their characters groping around trying to learn who’s friends with who, who’s lying about their deals and alliances, and who’s changing sides today. Nobles have a hard time keeping score, and outsiders can be utterly bewildered.
Let me paint you an example. A PC thief sneaks into noble revel, and late at night discovers the matriarch of noble house X and the patriarch of noble house Y making energetic love in the gardens. The PC is bewildered, because he had thought these two people hated each other fervently, and their families were coldly formal to each other at best. So he sneaks away, and a day later slips a truth drug into the glass of the matriarch when he catches her alone, and asks her if she and the patriarch of Y are friends - - and she honestly spits, “No. I hate the very ground he walks on! I despise Y, and house Y, and Y’s little dog, too!”
The PC thief blinks at her, and says, “But - - forgive me - - you were with him in the gardens, at the Z’s revel just the other night . . .”
And the matriarch blinks back at HIM. “Yes - - so? I hate and despise the man, but he’s one of the most handsome beasts in all the city! We see each other often, and hold several joint shipping investments, as it happens. That was just rutting - - ’Tis not like I TRUST him, man!”
Now, imagine every noble house being a collection of such strong-willed, self-absorbed hedonists, who hunger more for personal freedom than they respect any authority or agreement (remember the behaviour of the nobles Elaine and I showed you in CITY OF SPLENDORS ‘the novel, not the game book’), and the impracticality of such a chart should be clear.
P.S. I am not unmindful of your Thorp family request.
So saith Ed. And as a well-scratched and bitten veteran of Waterdhavian revels (some of those nobles play rough, dear), I fervently concur. Trying to learn who was up to what really is the roleplaying heart and soul of Ed-as-DM Waterdeep campaigns.
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 03:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
To Rowan and Faraer: well, yes, we are celebrating those anniversaries: by finally writing and releasing what should have been the very first published Realms novel, way back when. Actually, that’s what I’m hoping all readers of SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR do: pretend as they open the book that it’s their first glimpse of the Realms, with what we now call the Old Gray Box promised at their local hobby store one week from now . . .
That would've been neato indeed  . 'Tis a shame it never happened that way... but I'm more than willing to pretend for effect  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 03:50:10
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No problem Ed.
I do appreciate it you taking your time to do this for me and if I get impatient, just smack me and tell me to go sit in the corner and wait. :)
As I said, I really DO appreciate it and as a fledgling writer, who is trying to get through a novel, btw how do you write them so fast and so many at once? Gods!, I do appreciate the advice and I do realize how busy you must be. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 10:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
To Dargoth: that’s a good idea (plotting the relationships between the various noble houses of Waterdeep on an X and Y axis), but I’m afraid it just wouldn’t work. You’re oversimplifying, I’m afraid, because only a very few houses have such a strong leader that they speak and act with one voice (in Oz, despite having various autocrats as prime ministers, you never seem to get governments that always speak calmly with one unified voice, right?). Most Waterhavian noble families have a dominant matriarch or patriarch who speaks for the house and swaggers in public, but if that head of the house doesn’t reach agreement in private with spouse, a dowager mom if one exists, and any number of uncles, aunts, brothers, and sisters, all of those other family members are going to “do their own thing,” often spending family money or wielding family investments as part of it. It’s the norm for there to be money and policy struggles behind closed doors - - and for the losers to just become more covert in their defiance of the winners. So almost NO family can be plotted neatly in one place or position on such a spreadsheet: individual family members will be scattered (e.g. a brother having a deadly feud with a man of family X, whilst his older sister is having an affair with that man’s mother - - and his younger sister is having an affair with that man). It’s also oversimplifying, as you did with the Cassalanters and Cragsmeres, to assume that two families sharing the same fields of activity are necessarily Business Rivals. In many cases, they drew up private pacts, sometimes over a century ago, to geographically (or by specific product) divide the field between them, to co-exist rather than compete (remember: unlike our modern real world, there are no laws against such practices - - and despite the laws, such behaviour happens all the time in our modern real world). And a last kick at your idea: any such chart would be at best a snapshot of a moment in time, out of date the moment it was done.
Most of the adventuring and roleplaying fun of a Waterdeep-based campaign is the everchanging, sometimes swiftly-shifting nature of alliances, positions, viewpoints, and attitudes among the nobles and the wealthiest wannabe-noble merchant families, and you can REALLY entertain your players by having their characters groping around trying to learn who’s friends with who, who’s lying about their deals and alliances, and who’s changing sides today. Nobles have a hard time keeping score, and outsiders can be utterly bewildered.
Let me paint you an example. A PC thief sneaks into noble revel, and late at night discovers the matriarch of noble house X and the patriarch of noble house Y making energetic love in the gardens. The PC is bewildered, because he had thought these two people hated each other fervently, and their families were coldly formal to each other at best. So he sneaks away, and a day later slips a truth drug into the glass of the matriarch when he catches her alone, and asks her if she and the patriarch of Y are friends - - and she honestly spits, “No. I hate the very ground he walks on! I despise Y, and house Y, and Y’s little dog, too!”
The PC thief blinks at her, and says, “But - - forgive me - - you were with him in the gardens, at the Z’s revel just the other night . . .”
And the matriarch blinks back at HIM. “Yes - - so? I hate and despise the man, but he’s one of the most handsome beasts in all the city! We see each other often, and hold several joint shipping investments, as it happens. That was just rutting - - ’Tis not like I TRUST him, man!”
Now, imagine every noble house being a collection of such strong-willed, self-absorbed hedonists, who hunger more for personal freedom than they respect any authority or agreement (remember the behaviour of the nobles Elaine and I showed you in CITY OF SPLENDORS ‘the novel, not the game book’), and the impracticality of such a chart should be clear.
P.S. I am not unmindful of your Thorp family request.
The idea was for the Spread sheet to be simplified and generic (I thought it would have been a much to hit you up for a expansive write up of each of Waterdeeps Noble houses and their relationships with each other) What I was aiming for was those Rivalry/Vendettas/Alliances that have spanned generations like the Ilvastarr vs Belabranta feud described in the Ilvastarr's vault section of City of Splendors
Your above posts makes the Nobles of Waterdeep sound more like modern day investment banks or multinationals (Where different competing buisness own shares and interests in each other) than Europes feuding Medevial aristocracy (ie Romeo and Juliet etc).
I was under impression that the ruling Lord or Lady of a Noble house had more or less absolute power in where the families fortunes where spent. Presumably all nobles would have some sort of allowance from the family finiances
For example Bob th 3rd born son of the Noble family Smith decides he wants to buy a Vinyard in the Moonshae Islands he doesnt have enough personal wealth to buy the Vinyard so he has to approach his Father John the Patriarch of the family. John decides that the Vinyard isnt a good investment and knocks Bob back.
Bob would presumably have 2 options
1)Save his family Allowance up and buy Vinyard when hes got enough money
2) Bob could approach someone like Mirt and try and get a loan from him (presumably when John Smith finds out about Bobs loan he would let Mirt know that this is Bobs loan and his alone the house of Smith has no part in it ie If the whole thing goes pear shaped Mirt then your issue is with Bob not me or the rest of my family)
Thorp family: Excellent I plan on using Hulmara Thorp as a potential romance plot for one of the PCs (Im not sure what sort of a women she'll be from Erics Nobles CoS WE I get the felling shes a quiet, shy Wallflower type, although the predominate religion in the family is Tempus (Which is not a religion you associate with quiet, Shy, Wallflowers!) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 11:50:27
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My PCs are something of a bizarre and eclectic collection of Realmsian Jokesters. The newest campaign they are thoroughly and completely unwilling to take the story seriously and run it almost like Rozencratz and Gildenstern are Dead frankly. I frankly have found it very enjoyable to just simply let the campaign on their own whimsies and they have asked me to forward these rather peculiar plot developments.
1. Dire enemies of the Zhents that they happen to be from more serious campaigns; the PCs have decided to give Manshoon, Fzoul, and Semmenon a set of birthday presents (do they even celebrate birthdays in FR?). For Manshoon they gave him a Rod of Ressurection with the words ("Thought you might find this a bit safer") attuned to him and him alone. For Fzoul an Psylantry of Faithfulness that detects OTHER people's faith made by the PC's wizard and cleric to detect Cyricist faith ("Not even you deserved what the Thug put you through"), and a set of 6 Potions of Vigor for Semmy "For Ashemi and he"
They've also paid for a retirement home for aged warriors of Bane and other servants of the Zhents (a rather expansive almost Waterdevhavian affair). When I asked why, they said "They've been such good sports about all this"
2. The PC's Wizard has a bit of a grudge against Khelben Blackstaff for reasons too common to PCs but his stated choice of revenge is a bit peculiar. The player with numerous layers of illusion and polymorph has decided to give Khelben a reputation as an enormous lech and libertine. Using teleport liberally and asking for some spell to cover up any enquires for awhile (though he's sure that Khel will pierce them...he hopes the Old Man doesn't have the news reach him for many years), the Khel imposter has made it his effort to visit every Brothel amongst the Swordcoast to the Moonsea.
The Pcs have been helping the matter with suggestions and paid bards (often with many disgruntled Harper friends) to add to it. It hasn't helped the PC has also requested to make numerous Lewd spells they liberally share with fellow magic users starting under the name Khelban's Erotic...
3. In one of the most metatextual jokes in the game, the PCs have opened a 'fantasy' camp in Cormyr. In exchange for a fee, the PCs will train anyone willing to go through the rigorous course then head down to the dungeons they themselves have created with magic or modified of cleaned out lairs (the PCs following) with illusionary beasts and actual treasures left for those they particularly like. Nonlethal but hurtful traps also there.
Thanks Ed for your time.
Though I do have to ask one more, are there any Xvim worshippers still out there? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2006 11:57:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 17:21:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Though I do have to ask one more, are there any Xvim worshippers still out there?
I would tend to doubt it, since they had the dream of their god blowing up... Besides, to paraphrase from the old FRA: one deity of tyranny destroying and replacing another deity of tyranny is a pretty good endorsement.
I preferred Xvim. He seemed to have more style, as opposed to the "Ooh! I'm evil and scary!" vibe I've always gotten from Bane. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2006 17:22:40 |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 20:32:49
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Greetings, THO and Ed
I'm currently reading Elminster in Myth Drannor, and just this moment read the last section of the chapter at the end of part 2... it's only 1.5 pages long, but it's one of the most beautiful pieces of text i've read from Ed (it's the one with the spider, the elf and the wolf - for those who are wondering) I loved it! Call me strange, but i'll always remember this little scene as a memorable piece of this book. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 21:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I preferred Xvim. He seemed to have more style, as opposed to the "Ooh! I'm evil and scary!" vibe I've always gotten from Bane.
Hardly the place but I made a thread for discussing this very subject http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6610
And I always liked Xvim even if I preferred Bane. I always thought of him as the Damien Thorne to Bane's Empire and not really belonging up amongst the gods. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Nynshari
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 22:47:28
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Hello there. I posted awhile back about some questions I had regarding the Realms for a paper I'm doing for my comparative myth class. I've been really busy and am just now getting around to posting the questions. Just to warn people, this could be a long post - I'm really sorry and apologize in advance for the length.
Alight, so Ed: if you still have time, would you mind answering the following questions for me? There's no rush - anytime in the next 2 weeks or so would be fine. If you don't have the time, or can only answer some of them, that's okay, too.
Thank you in advance for any help that you can give me.
Alright, here they are:
Many of the countries in the realms resemble earth cultures either directly from history or from mythology. Was this modeling intentional or accidental regarding the following places:
Vaasa - Vikings
Netheril and Thultanthar - ancient Greece and Rome/Plato's Republic (respectfully)
Cormyr - Imerial Britain
Mulhorand - Egypt (actually, I think this one is obvious, but I have to ask as part of the class research)
Unther - Mesopotamia (ditto as above for Mulhorand)
Calimshan - Arabia
Evermeet - Atlantis
Cormanthor - Camelot
Many of the 'hero myths' associated with the above places also resemble the hero myths in their earth counterparts. Was this modeling intentional or accidental regarding the following stories:
Vaasa - (I haven't decided on one yet)
Netheril/Thultanthar - Ioulaum (Brutus), Karsus (Julius Caesar), Telamont (Augustus Caesar,'The philosopher king' of Plato's Republic)
Cormyr - King Azoun (Richard the Lionheart)
Unther - Gilgeam (Gilgamesh, Tiamat and Marduk)
Calimshan - (I haven't decided on one yet)
Evermeet - (I haven't decided on one yet)
Cormanthor - Shevarash (the goddeses Sekhmet and Durga) and Starbrow (King Arthur)
Some questions about deities as well. I've been told that Eric Boyd did most of the work on the deity end, and I'm going to ask him as well, but I wanted to see if you had anything to say about it. Some of the deities are intentional copies of earth deities, in that they came from earth to Faerun, while others appear to be copies but are not said to have come from earth but rather have their home cosmology as that of Toril (please excuse my terminology if it is wrong). Regarding the latter group, were they intentionally modeled or was their similarity accidental, in general, but especially regarding the following deities:
Mask/Vhaeraun/Lolth - Loki
Umberlee - Poseidon/Neptune
Eilistraee - Artemis
Erevan Ilesere - Hermes
For any of the above that were intentionally modeled, in terms of culture, hero myths, and deities separately, were they modeled due to:
the popularity of the culture/place/histories/deities with the public, or
because those cultures/places/histories/deities were common knowledge, or
because those cultures/places/histories/deities were obscure knowledge, or
any combination of the above?
If not any of the above, can you offer a different explanation?
Is there a significance to cultures/places/histories which were not chosen to be modeled, for example:
because they were not popular with the public, or
because they were too common knowledge, or
because they were too obscure knowledge, or
any combination of the above?
If not any of the above, can you offer a different explanation?
Ugh. So very sorry for the lengthy post, and if Ed doesn't have the time, I understand.
Thanks.
Nynshari
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Nynshari
Chaos is Life
Chaos is Creativity
Chaos is the Essence of Our Souls |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 02:07:55
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Hi again, fellow scribes! Feanor very recently posted (as part of a much longer and more detailed question that Ed intends to properly answer later) this: “So, at what age do elves reach adulthood or, to be more specific, at what age an elf would be physically capable of becoming an adventurer?”
Ed replies:
To address (at the moment) only the second half of your question, elves are physically capable of adventuring at around age 33 or so. However, that’s just like saying, “Yonder kid who’s gawky and in the middle of a growth spurt and accident-prone due to clumsiness with his extremities - - banging things with his elbows because he didn’t think they protruded so far, and so on - - is ready to drive this truck.”
In other words, elves at age 33 are neither physically or emotionally mature. The latter is often exhibited by behaviour that more dour individuals see as “whimsically inane” or “silly” or “gigglingly reckless” (or “suicidal” or “dangerous” in stealth or combat situations), and the former may well mean clumsiness, a pronounced tendency to drop things, and a lack of anything close to full mature upper body strength. Immature elves tend to take far too little seriously, see far too few consequences until hit by them, and to have attention spans that make butterflies look like deep thinkers. (I am speaking in gross generalizations here, please remember.)
Yet none of this stops them from functioning as adventurers. Compared to some characters as portrayed by apparently intelligent human real-world gamers who’ve played in GenCon tournaments I’ve DMed down the years, such immature elves may even seem like stalwart veterans. :}
That DOESN’T mean they would normally want to go adventuring, or that their families would normally let them leave parental supervision to go and indulge in such suicidal activities at such ages. However, in an emergency (for example: where elves fleeing from a ruined tree-village or something of the sort attached themselves to an adventuring band), it could happen.
This would not mean that such elves would step onto the stage as adventurers with any skill at all at archery or anything else, or much worldly wisdom at all (even pertaining to elven society beyond their immediate family groupings). Nor are they necessarily ready to face the world and stay sane. Balanced reasoning, cause-and-effect perceptions, and other judgemental faculties just Aren’t Yet Ready For Prime Time - - in part because the hormones inside their bodies are dedicated to physical growth at this stage in their lives, above all else (note to some of the younger scribes who may read this: despite the loose way in which “hormones” are often linked only to matters of puberty, sex, and reproduction, the term really refers to the naturally-generated substances within a living body that control ALL of its growth and processes, “turning on” and “turning off” and “regulating” various glands and organs throughout life).
In short, most elves at age 33 or so are like inquisitive, innocently-wandering children (which is why elf societies DO tend to isolate them from the wider, crueler world), who have progressed beyond incoherent crying and unstable “toddling” far enough to master speech and engage in simple acrobatics. As Steven Schend said, it’s around age 50 before they’re physically mature (enough to deftly and reliably control their own physical movements, and learn “motor skills” like aimed weapon use), and they’re adolescents for what seems a very long time for humans (able to, for instance, engage in sex without conceiving - - although, again, please remember I’m speaking in generalizations rather than about every last specific individual).
So saith Ed. Who will wade into the weightier “decide this for us” part of your question later, when he’s polished off his taxes and at least two novels, two dozen web columns, three magazine columns, and a game product more than he has right now. (Whew!)
love to all,
THO
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 02:21:26
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A random question popped into my head today while out in my herb garden Ed, and I thought I'd ask this.
Do any of the Planes, like the Material, get objects in the sky like Comets? And, if so, what would happen if a Asteroid hit this Plane of --- (Be it Fire, Earth, Shadow, etc.etc.)? Can Wizards, Clerics and other magics allow access to said-plane that was effected? What about the beings that live in this said-plane, do they flee the other planes?
One more bit, would the effects be different then if one hit the Material Plane, or would they be the same?
I know, abunch of little questions, but I think it's one worth asking for once on my end. |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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David Lázaro
Acolyte
Spain
37 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 03:09:22
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Hi Ed and Lady Hooded One,
I think your previous Waterdeep reply paints a very nice picture of fun campaigns set in the city. I was wandering how would you paint part of a campaign set in Silverymoon, Everlund or Luskan. What themes would be a good fit for those places? Nobility and money doesn't seem to rule those places as they do in Waterdeep.
I've also been wondering about a hook left in the Silver Marches for a long long time. The most I think about it the less I can see its consequences in game. I'm referring to the Arcane Brotherhood using drugs that affect the memory of the citizens of Silverymoon and the Silver Marches in order to gain more power there. I'm just unable to see: 1) how they will get the drugs inside, or where the drugs will come, 2) how they can get enough population exposed to the drugs, and 3) how they could use that situation to their advantage.
I've been trying to imagine something to do with that plot hook since I bought my first copy of the Silver Marches sourcebook (I always buy one English and one Spanish copy of everything to support both publishers) and have been unable to come with anything. After reading Power of Faerűn I thought that maybe I'm forgetting some connection between commerce and power structure that you can help untwist.
By the way, is Silverymoon and the Silver Marches out of NDA?  Some years ago you said we will see more of them soon... |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 02:11:05
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Well met Ed, and lady of the hood, consider yourself warmly saluted also.
I've finally decided to write on this thread (gathered the courage to do it is more like it) and ask the creator of all some questions of my own that, i don't think, have never been adressed in these threads before. I also decided is was more than time to give to Mr. Greenwood (Ed, sorry) my own deep and sincere thanks for sharing is imagination for so many years. In my case, i discovered your words and your world in 1983 or 84, i think, in the pages of Dragon magazine. I had just started playing D&D at that time and was shopping for a word to play in. The grey box found me and i, it, or her i guess:) The first lines for this box felt like an explosion in my head. I was discovering a real world out of my own. I could see the dales, i could feel waterdeep. It read like a history book from a time i never knew existed and yet it was as if i was there. It was a very weird experience, i must say.
It didn't take very long before i started to add some things of my own though. Little things that filled the gaps and before long sir, your world became my world. Or our world maybe. I thank you for that sir. I thank you for the spark that fired my desire to imagine more.
And now :) for my question:
It concerns Sessrendale and the Dusk lord. My current campaign involves the descendants of survivors from the genoocide of Sessrendale. You see, i my campaign, some survivors from the attacks of Archedale fled not to Battledale or some other dales but they travel toward the east, toward Anauroch and stopped in a little vale between the southerned tip of spiderhaunt woods and the desertmouth mountains. They founded a new dale there called Valedale or some call it the secret dale or the pocket dale :) They were embraced by a dwarven clan who protected for some years, just the time it took to settle in and build some settlements. They've been living there, very out the way, for a little more than a hundred years now.
My campaign starts with the return of the dusk lord and since i haven't found that much information about him, i wondered if you could share with me some of your thoughts on what would occur if the dusk lord had survived in some way the attacks from Archendale. What could he have become in that time? I am at that stage of designing the campaign and quite frankly, it would be an honour to get your point of view about the idea i put forth and your knowledge of the Dusk lord. I read somewhere that archendale were experimenting weird manifestations, hauntings some might say, and it seems that surviving families of the archendale agressors are the main targets. Would this be the Dusk lord manifesting his vengeance? Any information on this part of the realms would be very appreciated and cherished.
As you can see by now (and that is the main reason i was so hesitant to write before) is my very poor skill in writing in the english language. I am a french canadian living in Quebec and even though i can make myself understood most of the time, writing to Ed Greenwood was very intimidating for me, considering my skills. Anyway, i took the chance. I hope i haven't offended anybody with some strange phrase construction or something.
Well that's about it then. And as they say in Valedale sir, may your gaze reach the horizon and your heart touch the sky. (sounds better in french)
Patrakis |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 02:14:31
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Hi, all. Nynshari recently posted a series of deity-related Realmslore questions, and Ed replies hereafter (Nynshari’s queries interleaved in double square brackets):
Ed speaks:
Nynshari, I hope I can be of help here. However, I’m afraid I largely disagree with what seems to be your root thesis: that Realmsian elements are modeled on the specific real-world mythic or historical elements you believe them to be.
When reading these replies, please remember that over seventy writers that I know of have “touched” the gods in significant ways, and that some of them may have taken very different approaches than I did.
My original approach to creating the Realms pantheon (complete with “placeholder” gods, awaiting what Gary Gygax was going to do with, for example, the elemental gods) can be found in issue 54 of DRAGON Magazine (or “The Dragon,” as it was then). Most of my 300,000 words or so of notes on the gods, their priesthoods, and the creeds and rituals of their faiths became “base source material” for the 2nd edition sourcebooks FAITHS AND AVATARS tome and its sequel, POWERS AND PANTHEONS. Eric Boyd and Julia Martin did a lot of work giving the deities life, detail, and color, but (aside from “killing off” deities on several occasions) there have been very few wholesale changes in my original pantheon in which I wasn’t involved.
[[Many of the countries in the realms resemble earth cultures either directly from history or from mythology. Was this modeling intentional or accidental regarding the following places:
Vaasa - Vikings]]
Vaasa wasn’t in my original Realms; it’s entirely a TSR creation, and I have no idea whether it was intentionally modeled on anything or not.
[[Netheril and Thultanthar - ancient Greece and Rome/Plato's Republic (respectfully)]]
The Netheril you saw in print differed in fine detail from my original, and Thultanthar was developed by others. So for the published Thultanthar, again I can’t answer as to the intent behind its detailing.
Netheril certainly wasn’t modeled on ancient real-world anything, and attempts to draw parallels between real-world places and Netheril are tenuous at best. In Netheril I intended to show the decadence of humans consumed by the desire to “master” magic, and achieve immortality or godhood (or the ability to reshape the world like gods, at a whim), and the contrast between their created worlds (not all floating cities, by the way), with altered gravity and such, and the “other” Netherese living like hardy hunters in the forests, ignored or considered beasts by the archwizards.
This doesn’t resemble either “real” or mythological ancient Greece at all. Not in society, climate, history, warfare, world-beliefs, presence or absence of magic, religious beliefs or divine influence - - sorry, no correspondence at all. Imperial Rome could be said to have a similar “we’re the greatest, the ultimate, and our might makes right; it’s morally right to do to the rest of the world just what we want to do” attitude as Netheril, but it’s important to remember that attitude only ‘comes down to us’ (except as fancifully amplified by Hollywood) in the fragmentarily surviving writings and proclamations of a few rulers, who were politicians attempting to justify their actions and positions. It’s highly unlikely the “average” Roman citizen (or legionary) held such views, considering what various Roman plays reveal of public attitudes, and what Juvenal says in his SATIRES. That megalomaniacs or persuasive politicians want (and profess to believe they deserve to wield) power is hardly something distinctive to either Rome or Netheril - - something so universal hardly establishes a parallel.
[[Cormyr - Imperial Britain]]
I created Cormyr to have the Sherwood Forest/Arthur and his galloping knights of the Table Round “feel,” but to be a distinct kingdom with quite a different history. Imagine the fictional court of Camelot - - all the bickering knights, that is - - and see what happens if a royal line manages to hold the throne for centuries. Quite different from all of the fictional depictions of Arthur, who creates his own great kingdom, far more powerful than what existed before him - - a kingdom that either declines (through Constantine) or is swept away entirely after his death or departure, depending on which sources or versions of the Arthurian mythos one embraces most closely.
The various approaches to Arthur (the Christian king; the Celtic or Welsh king of England repelling or withstanding Germanic foreigners; the Celt holding together civilization after the departure of the Romans; the predestined king who fulfills his destiny, and so on) are all quite different from the concept of the Dragon Throne of Cormyr and the Obarskyrs who’ve held it. (Elves take land from dragons, arriving human settling family manages to establish a settlement, and holds it almost continuously for over a thousand years, withstanding all challenges in various ways and in the process building a strong kingdom.)
The term “Imperial Britain” of course refers to the far more recent, historical British empire (wherein the English sailed wooden ships all over the world to conquer, occupy, and exploit distant territories such as India, Canada, the colonies that later became the United States, and so on), and of course Cormyr has never had imperial ambitions. Its armies stay at home, beyond temporary occupations of pirate ports such as Teziir, patrols along its fringes (Tunland, the West Reaches, the Stonelands), and naval skirmishes with Westgate and Sembia that arise only when Cormyr is trying to keep those two rivals from cutting off access to Marsember and Suzail. So Cormyr has no correspondence whatsoever to “Imperial Britain.” Sorry.
[[Mulhorand - Egypt (actually, I think this one is obvious, but I have to ask as part of the class research)]]
Correct. I wanted Mulhorand to be a land of dusky-skinned Set worshippers, because I postulated the worship of Set to have spread through the planar links from earth. When it was developed in print by other designers than me, it had become “Egyptians from our real-world Earth resettle in the Realms, and bring all their gods and worship with them,” so there is direct modeling. Not by me, and it’s not how I would have handled Mulhorand, but that’s what other designers did, and they did it well.
[[Unther - Mesopotamia (ditto as above for Mulhorand)]]
I wanted to “echo” or “suggest” the concept of god-kings from the real-world Sumerian myths of Gilgamesh, and create a place where nagas (the game monster, drawn of course from real-world mythology) could rule or at least be venerated in cults - - and go no closer to real-world beliefs and matters than that.
Again, the Unther that was published wasn’t designed by me, and it’s not how I would have handled it.
Several senior TSR designers were former history teachers, and the Realms was seen by TSR as a vast tapestry that was to be the “home” for all sorts of D&D roleplaying, from Hollywood pirate movies through Viking raids and sword-and-sandal movie epics, so TSR added many real-world elements to the Realms - - such as Mongol hordes, an overt version of the Orient, and in one real blunder, the Dalai Lama. (No kidding.)
Again, this is NOT what I intended for the Realms.
[[Calimshan - Arabia]]
Correct. TSR had an “Arabian Adventures” sourcebook planned, and I pointed to Calimshan and said: “Turbans and veils and sand and camels, bare-bellied dancers and pointy-bearded men, slaves and gold and souks, ruled by viziers and satraps.” TSR promptly did the historical thing and put in pashas and all the rest. Again, they did it very well and gave a historical ‘home’ to the geniekind D&D game monsters.
[[Evermeet - Atlantis]]
Nope. If you see Evermeet as Atlantis, you’re completely misreading it. Evermeet is an unspoiled forest isle that the elves long ago took over and defended as their own kingdom, keeping other non-sylvan races out - - and in particular keeping humans, dwarves, and orcs out (being as said other races were, in the elven view, “despoiling and ruining” the mainland, and swamping the elves in their attempts to hold onto the forests there.)
Whatever the truth about the historical Atlantis (Thera or any of the many other candidates), the mythological Atlantis is a great, advanced (and in some sources, decadent, with its fate self-inflicted or at least deserved) human city swallowed by the sea.
Again, I don’t see any connection whatsoever. Evermeet’s never been human, never been a city or “advanced” in terms of wealth or settlement or structures, and has never been drowned. It’s not “lost” and not a treasure-trove: it’s a chunk of forest very like much of the mainland used to be, that was maintained as forest and ‘gardened’ by the elves to keep it vigorous and prevent erosion, blights, land-clearances, and so on. Atlantis in all of its folklore versions is a great, grand city of advanced technology (in the view of the day), not unspoiled nature at all.
[[Cormanthor - Camelot]]
I can see how someone examining Myth Drannor and Camelot could draw a parallel between them (both were great shining cities, and were lost), but I certainly didn’t model one on the other, and both history and mythology are FULL of proud cities that are now lost (I can think of twenty right off the top of my head).
When you think about the two for a moment, that parallel breaks down. Camelot is a castle, and a city that develops around it, built by one human, that fades from view after his death, location now lost or disputed (i.e. no extensive ruins).
Cormanthor is a city built by many elves, and inhabited for generations before being “opened to other races” as a place for traditionally warring or at least rival races to dwell together in harmony - - a city that exists still, in recent years as an extensive ruin occupied by devils and demons, visited by a “gold rush” of adventurers when those fiends are largely eliminated, and now seen as something that could be reoccupied again.
So again, the comparison is tenuous. It looks good until you glance at history, both real and mythological, and seen just how darn many cities were lost and are longed-for in memory (of someone, at some time). This is, yes, a universal theme, rooted in the human dislike of change, and nostalgia (“Oh, it was golden in the old days, when fair Freedonia’s towers still soared into the sky, and folk - -”). If your idea of Camelot is only the musical, wherein Arthur sings sadly “don’t let it be forgot,” charging the audience to Remember the Dream, then yes, Myth Drannor represented a Dream that some desire to be revived. Again, that’s hardly an original concept, and I certainly wasn’t thinking of Camelot when I created Myth Drannor - - I was thinking more of “backward humans are allowed into the bright, gleaming city, and allowed a brief glimpse of wonder that they fight alongside the elves to try to keep, but fail gloriously.”
So saith Ed. THO here, splitting Ed's post so as not to run into the post-limit lengths; I'll send the second half right away!
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 02:16:11
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Hi, all. The promised second half, beginning with Nynshari's next question (in double square brackets):
[[Many of the 'hero myths' associated with the above places also resemble the hero myths in their earth counterparts. Was this modeling intentional or accidental regarding the following stories:
Vaasa - (I haven't decided on one yet)]]
Obviously not; see my answer for Vaasa, above.
[[Netheril/Thultanthar - Ioulaum (Brutus), Karsus (Julius Caesar), Telamont (Augustus Caesar,'The philosopher king' of Plato's Republic)]]
Wow, you’re REALLY stretching here. Ioulaum is a trickster “I’m cleverer than everyone else, and will foresee the peckadilloes of my fellow ambitious archwizards, and craft spells that will give me escape hatches beforehand” loner wizard. Brutus has no magic, is a scheming politician, and in the most famous accounts had a hand in murdering Caesar.
Karsus is a wizard obsessed with power, intent on joining or defeating and replacing the gods. Gods he KNOWS to be real, remember, no faith necessary. He cares very little about, and pays very little attention to, the affairs and interests of others, except as they exist as obstacles to what he wants to do. His attention is bent on personal magical power, in the end attempting to transcend mortality. Julius Caesar, if you do any extensive studying of the historical character, was a very pragmatic politician (and war leader), concerned with social power: getting to the top of the Roman Empire and staying there. Both were powerful schemers, but that’s about the extent of their resemblance to each other.
Telamont as published is the work of others, so I can’t say whether they intentionally modeled the character on a mythic hero or not. It doesn’t look like it to me.
[[Cormyr - King Azoun (Richard the Lionheart)]]
This connection puzzles me. Do you see it because of the “Crusade” against the Tuigan Horde that TSR designers (not me) grafted onto his life story? The historical Richard is an absent-from-his-realm king (Azoun is almost always “at home” in Cormyr), probably homosexual (Azoun is aggressively heterosexual), both are seen in folklore as bearded crowned men good in battle (though Richard was defeated, imprisoned, and ransomed, whereas Azoun was not) - - but then, history, folklore, and modern fantasy literature (from Dunsany, Morris, Eddison, Cabell, and other writers before Tolkien) is full of bearded warrior-kings. We really don’t have a consistent folk representation of Richard; from THE LION IN WINTER to his various depictions in various versions of the Robin Hood tales, Richard is “all over the place” as a hero (or not so hero) king.
I certainly never saw King Azoun IV as Richard the Lionheart, King Arthur, John F Kennedy, or any of the other real, historical, or folklore characters various commentators down the years have tried to compare him to. However, I haven’t had the chance to paint as vivid a living, breathing picture of him as I wanted to - - which is why you’ll see more of him in SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR and in my current Realmslore columns on the Wizards website.
[[Unther - Gilgeam (Gilgamesh, Tiamat and Marduk)]]
Correct. Yes, deliberately modeled. See my Unther answer above.
[[Calimshan - (I haven't decided on one yet)]]
Sorry. None. See my Calimshan answer above.
[[Evermeet - (I haven't decided on one yet)]]
Sorry. None. See my Evermeet answer above.
[[Cormanthor - Shevarash (the goddeses Sekhmet and Durga) and Starbrow (King Arthur)]]
Nope. However, the characters you mention were brought to life by others, and I can’t speak for their motivations or modeling, if any.
[[Some questions about deities as well. I've been told that Eric Boyd did most of the work on the deity end, and I'm going to ask him as well, but I wanted to see if you had anything to say about it. Some of the deities are intentional copies of earth deities, in that they came from earth to Faerun, while others appear to be copies but are not said to have come from earth but rather have their home cosmology as that of Toril (please excuse my terminology if it is wrong). Regarding the latter group, were they intentionally modeled or was their similarity accidental, in general, but especially regarding the following deities:
Mask/Vhaeraun/Lolth - Loki]]
Sorry, Nynshari, but no. You’re stretching again. Let’s look very quickly at the three “Realmsian” deities:
Mask is my creation, the god of thieves, and envisaged by me as the sidling, soft-spoken, almost meek master manipulator, good at slipping away, who regards being caught or taunting victims or openly stepping into conflict as clumsy, distasteful, and not ‘his way’ at all. A thief and schemer, yes.
Vhaeraun is my creation, a deity primarily concerned with drow males returning to the surface world and succeeding there. Through murder (poison, for instance: assassins), thievery, and evil. A thief and schemer, yes.
Lolth is not my creation; she’s the spider-goddess who seeks to become the sole deity of the drow (a goal she might very well achieve), who both schemes and uses brute force. She wants to be the only goddess for “her” race. I can’t speak for either her creators or those who’ve handled her since, aside from my brief handling of her in DROW OF THE UNDERDARK and MENZOBERRANZAN.
And now let’s look at Loki: the Norse trickster god. A schemer, yes - - but if you read widely in the various writings, stepping back from modern comics interpretations and the Eddas, Loki burns to do harm to the other gods and win more power and favor. (So in this he’s somewhat like Lolth.) However, in many of the writings, he craves Odin’s favor and/or wants to be respected and obeyed by the other deities. This is unlike Lolth; she just wants to destroy the other drow deities.
Loki delights in scheming (so in this he’s like all three of the Realmsian deities you cite). However, Loki often schemes quite openly, setting the other gods at odds with each other by lies and engaging in both gloating and taunting (and in this, he and Mask could not be more un-alike, and he lacks Vhaeraun’s subtlety and shows far more glee and humor than Lolth ever has). Your problem here is taking two Realmsian gods of deceit and one evil goddess who sometimes engages in deception and trying to equate them with a Norse god of deception who is THE trickster of his mythos.
In other Norse or Teutonic sources, Loki is the god of fire, or (as the son of the giant Farbauti and of Laufey, not a god at all - - though he’s certainly powerful enough to slay gods, and give birth to gods (such as Hel). What IS constant in the depictions of Loki is his hatred of the gods and determination to destroy them all. In this, he is similar to Lolth (though you can hardly make a convincing case for this being modeling, as Lolth first came on the scene as the only drow deity, with no other drow deities existing to destroy except the already-vanquished “Elder Elemental God,” and because I’ve told you her deity-destroying aims more bluntly than the published Realms canon yet has) but not at all similar to Mask (who doesn’t want any deity dead, and only wants specific mortals dead who can expose his faithful; otherwise, every dead god or mortal is one less potential victim, and therefore a Bad Thing). Vhaeraun delights in evil, and won’t hesitate to kill for personal gain (assassins), but seeks to avoid notice of other gods rather than taking any of them on - - and doesn’t hate them.
So I don’t see any strong parallels at all, and certainly no modeling (and to argue that I was “unconsciously” or “accidentally” modeling a Realms deity on anything, when the creation of a deity in an attemptedly-balanced pantheon is such a complicated process, is the very height of academic arrogance, ranking right up there with professors who tell authors that they can’t possibly understand what they’ve written because they’re only writers, and not scholars).
[[Umberlee - Poseidon/Neptune]]
Nope. Every seafaring or shore culture down through history has had gods of the sea. Most deities are seen as humans (albeit sometimes with beast-parts grafted on), so most sea-deities end up with scales, fish tales, seaweed hair, and so on.
However, you’ve chosen the two “classical” faces of the bearded crowned king of the sea and tried to draw a parallel between them and Umberlee, whom I created and deliberately depicted as the personification of human male sailors seeing the capricious, cruel sea as a bitchy female. Their histories, characters, and aims differ sharply - - so I’m sorry, but I don’t see any modeling.
Poseidon is lord not just of the sea but of rivers and fountains, and (leaving aside his wife and offspring), he’s only one of many Greek sea deities, such as the titan Oceanus, Pontus, Nereus (and his wife and all of HIS offspring); in short, a much different concept than I’ve created with Umberlee.
[[Eilistraee - Artemis]]
Nope. I was asked to create a “good drow deity” for DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, pertaining to surface-dwelling drow, and I did, deciding to depict her as nurturing mother goddess worshipped through dancing nude under the moonlight (echoing British faery traditions, but seeking to make her seem not capricious, as the faeries are depicted, but non-warlike, non-violent except when protecting “her” mortals). Through her priestesses, Eilistraee aids her faithful in hunting and swordcraft as a way of helping them to survive and flourish in a hostile surface world. She’s not HERSELF depicted as any sort of a huntress; she’s the force that brings a stag into the reach of hungry drow, not the slayer-by-arrows of drow foes.
She can personally be an avenger or protectress, yes (an aspect strengthened in 3rd Edition, not by me), fearsomely wielding the sword she dances with, but owes more to the bard than the huntress.
So you’ve turned to a classical goddess depicted as the huntress, a peerless archer whose shafts never miss (or almost never miss, depending on the tale). This puzzles me; I certainly wouldn’t equate a benevolent nurturing (and fertility, though thanks to the TSR Code of Ethics you have to read between the lines to see this in DROW OF THE UNDERDARK and SILVERFALL, where I certainly wasn’t very subtle about it) goddess with the Queen of the Hunt, the virgin Greek goddess of chastity.
Let’s look more closely at Artemis. In her Roman derivation (Diana), it’s death to a mortal man to see her nude - - but he sees her bathing; she isn’t in that tradition depicted as normally racing about the forests bareskinned. (Some writers do depict all of the classical deities so, which probably has much to do with many of the real-life mortal cities of worshippers having few nudity taboos.) She’s the moon goddess, also goddess of childbirth, wild life, domestic animals, and infants (children just after they are born), as well as being goddess of flocks, and of the chase.
So there are a lot of possible portfolios here that someone TRYING to draw a parallel could catch onto, to try to make their case, but none of them really fit: I created Eilistraee as worshipped under the moon because that’s when she appears, NOT a moon goddess; her only connection to the moon was because drow (who had to stay in the dark to keep any power, in that edition of the D&D game) on the surface could see the moon but Underdark drow could not. Eilistraee has nothing to do with domestic animals or wild life, and her mothering is not of childbirth or the young, but of the whole race (to sustain and strengthen them in their return to the surface). Eilistraee has nothing to do with flocks or the chase, is not virginal, and has nothing to do with chastity.
Hmmm, looks like you’ve got the wrong gal. :}
[[Erevan Ilesere - Hermes]]
Here you’re speaking of a god not of my creation, an elf god of the D&D game put into the Realms with the rest of the elven pantheon, who is the deity of bards, revelers, rogues, sorcerers, and tricksters (fickle, changeable, a jester).
And you’re trying to equate him with Hermes, the messenger and herald of the Greek gods, who is also the god of eloquence, speech, roads, protector of travellers, prudence, cunning (fraud, perjury, and theft), commerce, good luck, crops, patron and guardian of athletic contests, god of mining, treasure-diggers, sleep and dreams, and (in Arcadia) of the fertility of the soil and of animals. He invented numbers, the alphabet, astronomy, weights and measures, sacrifices (and so was the patron of sacrificial animals) and so on and on and on.
Well, they’re both gods of rogues, but otherwise, they couldn’t be more unalike. One delights in mischief, and promotes elves - - the other has never heard of elves, and is interested in getting his own way through cunning, not spreading mischief.
Again, I think you’re really stretching.
[[For any of the above that were intentionally modeled, in terms of culture, hero myths, and deities separately, were they modeled due to:
the popularity of the culture/place/histories/deities with the public, or
because those cultures/places/histories/deities were common knowledge, or
because those cultures/places/histories/deities were obscure knowledge, or
any combination of the above?
If not any of the above, can you offer a different explanation?]]
Mulhorand: Egyptian due to the popularity of Set-worshipping with gamers at the time, including my PCs (so as to establish an ongoing conflict: PCs versus the evil cult of Set-worshippers, with no intention to include the rest of the pantheon or closely model Egyptian life; that was the doing of others).
Unther: Nothing to do with popularity; I wanted to explore what apparently immortal god-kings would DO, and what effect their rule would have, on a fantasy society.
Calimshan: Arabian because of the popularity of “exploring the exotic” culture (my version of it, that is) with my PCs; its inner workings and world-views.
[[Is there a significance to cultures/places/histories which were not chosen to be modeled, for example:
because they were not popular with the public, or
because they were too common knowledge, or
because they were too obscure knowledge, or
any combination of the above?
If not any of the above, can you offer a different explanation?]]
As I’ve said, Nynshari, with the three exceptions noted above, and the individual deities noted in DRAGON 54 (such as Tyr and Tyche), I wasn’t trying to borrow or model real-world historical or mythic anything. I was creating my own fantasy world for my personal writing pleasure and DMing enjoyment, so public tastes and degree of knowledge played no part in it.
I’m sorry if I’ve shattered your academic work (I hope I haven’t), but I’m NOT going to accept anyone, for any reason, just assuming this part of the Realm is real-world this, and that element of the Realms is real-world that, and asking why I chose to model this or copy that. I imported a few real-world deities, with explanations, I “echoed” some real-world fantasy and folk settings I wanted to write about or play in (and TSR designers and other writers went down this road much, much farther), and otherwise I tried to craft and flesh out the Realms with reference to the Realms (and what I saw as human nature, elven nature, dwarvish nature, draconic nature, and so on). It had to be self-consistent, but it didn’t have to correspond to anything else (TSR’s needs were, of course, different).
I’m quite willing to discuss this farther, elaborating on anything you’d care to ask, but please don’t promote any thesis based on my ‘obviously being influenced by this or that’ - - because as you can see from my answers above, you drew the wrong lines and conclusions far more often than not.
Sorry, and thanks for the interest. I hope you can salvage something from this, really I do. (I rushed to answer your questions so as to give you time - - before the two weeks is up - - to try a different approach or hypothesis.)
So saith Ed. Who DOES mean it, so post again on this if you’d like, Nynshari. I’m enjoying the glimpses of “why Ed made this design choice, what he intended with that deity” I’m getting.
love to all,
THO
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Acolyte
Australia
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Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 11:32:26
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To the master of the Greenwood.
First let me say that I am supremely grateful that you reply (and what replies they are) but I would like to add another to your evergrowing list of questions.
First, about elves, they're generally described as being more slender than humans. Do you see this as being because they have narrower bones and ribcages than humans but have a decent amount of muscle. Or is their skeleton the same size as ours but with less flesh i.e. like a fashion model.
And second, seeing as you spoke about Artemis in your last post, are there any good aligned god/goddesses of hunting that a human can worship. Milieki and Silvanus both seem more about preservation of nature, and Malar is evil so they dont seem like someone that a pioneer out trying to catch a deer for his family to eat would be praying to.
Thanks for your time.
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2006)
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