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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 11:33:17
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Vendui'.
I am not sure if this is the right place to post this, so I will just post it here until a Mod sends it elsewhere.
I am writing a novel that might turn into a series and I seek critique on what I have written so far. I will be posting the 2 pages that I have from the Prologue for your reviewing. After you have read it, I would like to know what you guys think (though I am really seeking WotC writers' critique).
quote:
Dissention
By Randell E Cinnamon
Prologue
Deep in the Plane of Shadow lies a city in ruins, a city that looks like it has seen thousands of years of warfare. This ruined city is called Chaulssin, the City of Wyrmshadow. Once a city of drow; conquered by a clan of Shadow Dragons and enslaved the drow inhabitants 1500 years ago. After centuries of enslavement, the Shadow Dragon clans were overthrown by their very own half drow/half shadow dragon progeny, who mastered powerful planar magic. Few of the descendants survive today, but a covert House of master assassins called the Jaezred Chaulssin uses these ruins as their hidden stronghold. Today is no exception, as the Jaezred Chaulssin call for a meeting in this war torn city.
“Can you sense it, Mauzzkyl”, Drak’ul asked. “Vhaeraun has been more benevolent in his dealings with his followers. I have heard rumors that he seeks allies of old to make a final and decisive strike against Lolth. If this is true and it succeeds, then the Menzoberranzyr will be completely impotent without their Goddess to aid them. Patron Grandfather, what would you suggest our course of action be?”
Moments go by before Mauzzkyl answers his comrade, for he too has noticed Vhaeraun’s benevolence and has heard the same rumors of note. However, he seems to be not fully convinced and decides to proceed with caution, “Drak’ul, I understand how you feel and I too know of our Dark Lord’s change. However, I ask you to exercise patience in this and answers will come in time. For now, return to your House and we will summon you when we have all the answers.”
The rest of the Jaezred Chaulssin nod their heads in agreement and Drak’ul turns to leave them to their deliberations. Still, questions continue to run through Drak’ul’s mind as he contemplates this unexpected turn of events. Devoted to Vhaeraun ever since he became one of his Chosen, his link to his deity has ever been strong and will continue to be. Not known for his patience, Drak’ul thinks of ways to garner answers from other sources. He decides that it is time to pay a visit to a friend of old.
“You are aware that he will not wait for answers”, Xorthaul explains to Mauzzkyl. “His potential will reach heights that are unreachable to ordinary drow. If I held no faith in his abilities, I would have never brought him into our fold. He will take our counsel into consideration, but he will act regardless of what we say. His training has been both a blessing and a curse. We all know what drives him and I say that we encourage him, albeit cautiously. His need for vengeance against House Baenre is great indeed and he has come a long way since the destruction of House Oblodra.”
“We all know his potential and have never questioned his methods” Tomphael answered curtly. “The only thing I question is how foolhardy he will be in his quest for these answers. His recent quest to gain power to aid in his vengeance against House Baenre nearly killed him. You saw him after he came back from the lair of the Grey Dragon; he was nearly crazed after surviving that ordeal. He may be tempered now, but what if he gives into his inhibitions and jeopardizes everyone around him? He nearly brought ruin to himself and his former group over a hundred years ago when he got lost in the Demonweb Pits trying to slaughter Lolth and take her profile for himself. Xorthaul, I know that you have hopes for him and know him better than we do, so I ask you to speak to him. Convince him to stay his hand and concentrate on those around him and not to sacrifice everything he has accomplished.”
As Tomphael said all this, Mauzzkyl nodded his head in agreement. “I agree with Tomphael in this and bid you to do as he suggests. For now, I say that we part ways until next we meet. We will meet in four tendays, then and only then will we summon Drak’ul to grant him his answers.”
On the Prime Material Plane, in Qu’ellar Drae’quel, Drak’ul’s son, Radu is having a heated discussion with his father’s advisor, Asriel.
“Damn it all to the Nine Hells, Asriel. Don’t you know that my father will bring ruin upon us all if he decides to undertake this suicide quest without the proper planning and sound tactics? The Jaezred Chaulssin will not back him in this without fully discussing the ramifications of this war that my father wishes to wage against Menzoberranzan. As for Vhaeraun, I know that something is different with his dealings with his followers. I have heard rumors that he seeks an ally of old and I am not pleased with this situation.”
Sitting behind his desk, Asriel lets Radu rant on about his father. Knowing that they both have been known for ‘butting heads’ with each other, Asriel has no choice but to follow Drak’ul and advise him the best that he can. “Radu, calm yourself. I understand you’re upset and I agree with you. However, you know that I will follow Drak’ul to death if he asked it of me. That is something I have made known ever since I joined him, but that don’t mean that I like his decision concerning Menzoberranzan.” Asriel pauses for a moment to let his words sink in. “You want to know what I have been dealing with lately. I have been dealing with underlings plotting to oust Drak’ul from his coveted position in this House and become the new master of Qu’ellar Drae’quel. I have turned a small handful of those who plotted against Drak’ul into my thralls. I feel like I am acting against your father and yet, I am left with no choice in the matter. So, I urge you not to force my hand in this. Just let me deal with Drak’ul on my own. Now go and tend to your duties.”
Angered by Asriel’s words, Radu grips the hilt of his greatsword strapped across his back, as if he intends to attack Asriel, but he notices that Asriel is unconcerned. Knowing that if he went through with the attack, Asriel would not kill him, he would let Drak’ul administer the punishment against Radu. So, instead Radu storms out and slams the door to Asriel’s chambers behind him.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Silvfana
Acolyte
Finland
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 12:51:35
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I have nothing to say about what is a proper place or not, but... critique you asked, an (at least some) you'll get.
Since I am not a native speaker of English I won't say anything about the language and grammar. Therefore I'll stick to the content of the text.
I think this looks very good, and to tell you the truth I'd like to read more. As a sample of the style and plot this isn't (at least not for me) enough long. As a prologue, this introduces the characters and, as I'd like to presume, some of their intentions on what is to happen later on.
What comes to the places and timeline, I trust that you are correct (I have no information of actual canon myself). Beside that, I feel the persons have a lot of depth for them (though I am not the best judge of that with brief reading and a relatively small material to refer to). I know one would learn more of them fruther in the book, but already there could be seen some tension. Further, I presume, there will also be more explanation of the city itself and the Jaezred Chaulssin? Hopefully, because at least for me, this leaves a little shallow image.
I hope this is at least to some extent constructive, but I'm aware it has a lot of my own presumptions. But it's a start though? |
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why should we really need to live
Opeth - Ghost of Perdition |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 13:02:23
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I want to thank you for your critique and I will post more when I have it. I have read and studied different types of writing and found that I like RAS's and Lumley's style of writing. I also read the first 5 books from the WotSQ series and I used some of the styles from them as well.
Since I have not written a book in my life, I find the challenge exciting and strive to wrote more. I should have more posted this Thursday. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 15:27:31
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quote:
(though I am really seeking WotC writers' critique).
And the likelihood of that happening is what, do you think?
The first thing? Polish your grammar and polish it hard. I can promise you that this will land you a rejection slip faster than you can say "But--"
You switch tenses like whoa. (I don't know about Norwegian, assuming that's your native tongue, but in English, you stick to one tense and one tense only within a piece.) Examples of your tense-hopping:
quote:
Today is no exception, as the Jaezred Chaulssin call for a meeting in this war torn city.
“Can you sense it, Mauzzkyl”, Drak’ul asked.
quote:
“You are aware that he will not wait for answers”, Xorthaul explains to Mauzzkyl.
...
As Tomphael said all this, Mauzzkyl nodded his head in agreement.
Just no.
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Qu’ellar Drae’quel, Drak’ul’s son
What the fuh? Can you even pronounce those names without twisting off your own tongue? Contrary to (seemingly, anyway) popular belief, adding apostrophes doesn't make the name suddenly exotic and interesting. It just makes the name frakking annoying.
quote:
Deep in the Plane of Shadow lies a city in ruins, a city that looks like it has seen thousands of years of warfare. This ruined city is called Chaulssin, the City of Wyrmshadow. Once a city of drow; conquered by a clan of Shadow Dragons and enslaved the drow inhabitants 1500 years ago. After centuries of enslavement, the Shadow Dragon clans were overthrown by their very own half drow/half shadow dragon progeny, who mastered powerful planar magic. Few of the descendants survive today, but a covert House of master assassins called the Jaezred Chaulssin uses these ruins as their hidden stronghold.
Omgwtf, info-dump. No, just no.
First, consider whether the reader needs to know all this right at the outset. If you ask me, the answer is no. There are many more graceful ways to incorporate such information into the narrative if you have to incorporate it at all. Because at the beginning? It's hard to care. The history of the city just gets in the way of the story -- if I run into this sort of opening paragraph, I'll drop the book like something smelly or hit the back button on my browser at once. I'd like to direct you to this beginnings rant, beginnings rant, part two and avoiding infodumps. Particularly these parts:
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2) Start with a beginning that showcases your skills. So many fantasy books begin with a bit (or twenty pages) of mythic history, or a panoramic descriptive beginning that tells you something about whatever location the author’s chosen to focus on first. The problem is, the authors doing this often aren’t good at writing mythic history or description. (And “not good” is kinder than some of them deserve).
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5) Know what is not essential. You might really love the description of how the ocean curls around the island of Kadeira. But is it important to the story? Does your reader need to know who founded this city? Do your characters need to note the placement and rank and coat of arms of every person who parades before the King’s court?
Moreover:
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Once a city of drow; conquered by a clan of Shadow Dragons and enslaved the drow inhabitants 1500 years ago.
Makes no sense. Try: "Once a city of drow and later conquered by a clan of shadow dragons, who enslaved the drow inhabitants 1,500 years ago." Notice the difference?
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the Shadow Dragon clans
I thought there was only one clan?
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Few of the descendants survive today, but a covert House of master assassins called the Jaezred Chaulssin uses these ruins as their hidden stronghold. Today is no exception, as the Jaezred Chaulssin call for a meeting in this war torn city.
Today is no exception of what? The drow using it as a stronghold? In which case, duh. Using something as a stronghold isn't a daily occurrence. It's like saying "I have been living in this house for five years. Today is no exception." Duh?
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However, he seems to be not fully convinced and decides to proceed with caution, “Drak’ul, I understand how you feel...
Er... no. The sentence has no connection with a speech. Not comma; use a period. Try:
However, he seems to be not fully convinced and decides to proceed with caution. “Drak’ul, I understand how you feel...
Gah, and pretty much the rest of the dialogue is punctuated incorrectly. Look, you say you've read, so why can't you pay attention to how dialogue is properly formatted?
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Not known for his patience, Drak’ul thinks of ways to garner answers from other sources. He decides that it is time to pay a visit to a friend of old.
“You are aware that he will not wait for answers”, Xorthaul explains to Mauzzkyl. “His potential will reach heights that are unreachable to ordinary drow... blah blah
This came out of nowhere. It's not immediately apparent that they are duscussing Drak'ul, thanks to your point-of-view switch, nor why they feel the need to. Has he been problematic? Have they been harboring doubts about him, and if so, have you shown it? No? Then reorganize and do show it.
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He may be tempered now, but what if he gives into his inhibitions and jeopardizes everyone around him?
Are you sure you know what "inhibition" means?
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He nearly brought ruin to himself and his former group over a hundred years ago when he got lost in the Demonweb Pits trying to slaughter Lolth and take her profile for himself.
Her "profile"?
Also, the conversation about Drak'ul? It's a prime example of "As you know, Bob..." pitfall.
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On the Prime Material Plane, in Qu’ellar Drae’quel, Drak’ul’s son, Radu is having a heated discussion with his father’s advisor, Asriel.
Owww. Clumsy scene change. Look, just use a scene divider -- a row of asterisks or something -- and omit this part entirely. You can introduce who's speaking to whom, and on where, bit by bit. You don't need to spoon-feed your readers.
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Don’t you know that my father will bring ruin upon us all if he decides to undertake this suicide quest without the proper planning and sound tactics?
Suicidal.
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As for Vhaeraun, I know that something is different with his dealings with his followers. I have heard rumors that he seeks an ally of old and I am not pleased with this situation.
And? What can he do about it? Vhaeraun's a god. The way Radu puts it, it sounds like Vhaerun needs his personal approval to do things. Also, you really like the phrase "of old", don't you? The text is very short, and there are already three instances of it.
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Knowing that they both have been known for ‘butting heads’ with each other, Asriel has no choice but to follow Drak’ul and advise him the best that he can.
Why is "butting heads" inside quotation marks? It doesn't need to be. Surely you don't think your reader's dumb enough to think that it's literal.
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However, you know that I will follow Drak’ul to death if he asked it of me.
You mean "to the death", unless he intends to kill Drak'ul by following him. (Consider the phrases "bore me to death" and "stab him to death.")
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That is something I have made known ever since I joined him, but that don’t mean that I like his decision concerning Menzoberranzan.
Is the speaker meant to be subliterate? Illiterate? Uneducated? If not, then why is he saying "that don't" rather than "that doesn't"?
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Knowing that if he went through with the attack, Asriel would not kill him, he would let Drak’ul administer the punishment against Radu.
Er, not "against." Try "administer Radu's punishment." As well, replace the comma after "kill him" with a semicolon.
By the way, is there a reason for Radu having the same name as a Sembian human? I know that Realmsian names have no particular cultural/racial patterns, but come on, drow and human names are a far cry from each other.
The writing's rather dry. It reads like exposition after exposition after exposition, and I can't say I'm particularly hooked. (I'm tired of drow, sorry, especially in fanfiction.) There's not enough characterization yet, the prose is rather awkward, and the grammatical errors are too distracting. |
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Khaa
Seeker
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 15:30:32
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I believe that sounds good. I wish you luck. Just keep up working on it and NEVER give up.
P.S. That quote is familair. From a game maybe. Yes, from a game. I had a poster once... |
Ever want another forum? Well try out www.icewinddale.com |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 17:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
(though I am really seeking WotC writers' critique).
And the likelihood of that happening is what, do you think?
Most authors actively avoid the writing of aspiring authors. It's not only so they don't get swamped, but also so that they don't have to worry about future legal matters. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 18:00:17
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Winterfox: Ok. I must say that I asked for critique, not criticism.
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What the fuh? Can you even pronounce those names without twisting off your own tongue? Contrary to (seemingly, anyway) popular belief, adding apostrophes doesn't make the name suddenly exotic and interesting. It just makes the name frakking annoying.
First off, Qu'ellar is really a Drow word. And Drae'quel is a word that a friend of mine and I came up with. It was originally supposed to be 'Dragon', but we just made it different. Drak'ul is basically Drakul or Dracul. If you know your history, Drakul/Dracul is Dracula's father.
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And the likelihood of that happening is what, do you think?
The first thing? Polish your grammar and polish it hard. I can promise you that this will land you a rejection slip faster than you can say "But--"
You switch tenses like whoa. (I don't know about Norwegian, assuming that's your native tongue, but in English, you stick to one tense and one tense only within a piece.) Examples of your tense-hopping:
The likelyhood of that might be more than you think. I am sure that they will give suggestions as to how I should go about making my book proper like.
Polish my grammar. Fine. I am sure there are errors that need to be tended to. But, might you deliver your advise better and make it sound more diplomatic or slightly more respectful??
WF, I am American born and bred. So, try not to hate on me when this is my first time actually sitting through and writing a book.
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Omgwtf, info-dump. No, just no.
First, consider whether the reader needs to know all this right at the outset. If you ask me, the answer is no. There are many more graceful ways to incorporate such information into the narrative if you have to incorporate it at all. Because at the beginning? It's hard to care. The history of the city just gets in the way of the story -- if I run into this sort of opening paragraph, I'll drop the book like something smelly or hit the back button on my browser at once. I'd like to direct you to this beginnings rant, beginnings rant, part two and avoiding infodumps.
I put the history of Chaulssin there for those who do not know of the history. Ok, there are some parts in there that can be taken out. Give me a break.
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Today is no exception of what? The drow using it as a stronghold? In which case, duh. Using something as a stronghold isn't a daily occurrence. It's like saying "I have been living in this house for five years. Today is no exception." Duh?
If you read it correctly, you would see why I put 'Today is no exception'. Read on affter that and it will become obvious. So, it should be me saying 'Duh'.
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This came out of nowhere. It's not immediately apparent that they are duscussing Drak'ul, thanks to your point-of-view switch, nor why they feel the need to. Has he been problematic? Have they been harboring doubts about him, and if so, have you shown it? No? Then reorganize and do show it.
Not to bash you, but has logic escaped you?? It is obvious that Xorthaul is speaking about Drak'ul.
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Her "profile"?
I meant her Portfolio. That can be easily changed.
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Owww. Clumsy scene change. Look, just use a scene divider -- a row of asterisks or something -- and omit this part entirely. You can introduce who's speaking to whom, and on where, bit by bit. You don't need to spoon-feed your readers.
With all due respect, I have seen many books with that sort of scene change. So, try to be a bit more polite in your critique, not criticism. See the difference??
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And? What can he do about it? Vhaeraun's a god. The way Radu puts it, it sounds like Vhaerun needs his personal approval to do things. Also, you really like the phrase "of old", don't you? The text is very short, and there are already three instances of it.
How about this?? Radu is concerned and confused, is that not allowed in the Drow way of life?? Ease up and learn to see things differently.
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Why is "butting heads" inside quotation marks? It doesn't need to be. Surely you don't think your reader's dumb enough to think that it's literal.
Nit pickin, much??
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You mean "to the death", unless he intends to kill Drak'ul by following him. (Consider the phrases "bore me to death" and "stab him to death.")
Everyone knows what that expression means. I am sorry if you don't.
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By the way, is there a reason for Radu having the same name as a Sembian human? I know that Realmsian names have no particular cultural/racial patterns, but come on, drow and human names are a far cry from each other.
For those who know Lumley's work, will know 'Radu Ly'kan' as Radu Lykan. Besides, its a name and there is nothing wrong with the name. Nit picking again. Ease up.
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The writing's rather dry. It reads like exposition after exposition after exposition, and I can't say I'm particularly hooked. (I'm tired of drow, sorry, especially in fanfiction.) There's not enough characterization yet, the prose is rather awkward, and the grammatical errors are too distracting.
Have you ever written a book?? If not, try not to be so damn critical. This is my first attempt and I am not sorry that it is not up to your taste. As far as I am concerned, you are a Mod in a forum, not a professional writer.
Khaa: Thank you for your input. You are one of the two who have responded with constructive feedback and not actually bashing a writer.
Wooly Rupert: quote:
Most authors actively avoid the writing of aspiring authors. It's not only so they don't get swamped, but also so that they don't have to worry about future legal matters.
Be that as it may, I am just seeking constructive input about what I should do and how I should do it. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Dec 2005 18:47:29 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 18:55:06
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Winterfox: Ok. I must say that I asked for crituque, not criticism.
If you are under the impression that a critique cannot be negative, you are terribly, terribly mistaken. Also? Critiques are, by nature, critical.
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The likelyhood of that might be more than you think. I am sure that they will give suggestions as to how I should go about making my book proper like.
Uhhm, unlikely. As Wooly Rupert said, most authors make a point of not reading fanfiction related to their work because, once upon a time, a crazy lady went ga-ga on Marion Zimmer Bradley concerning a Darkover book, if I remember right. The gist of it is:
Crazy lady: You! The ideas you used in your Darkover story? I wrote a fanfiction with an idea exactly like that! Credit me as a co-author now or I'll sue you!
Marion Zimmer Bradley: ...?!
Bradley ended up unable to publish said book. Mind you, there are professional authors who do look at fanfction; J. K. Rowling mentioned in an interview that she's at least glanced through some.
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If you know your history, Drakul/Dracul is Dracula's father.
And that is relevant, how...?
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WF, I am American born and bred. So, try not to hate on me when this is my first time actually sitting through and writing a book.
?
I assumed your first language was Norwegian due to your stated location and the grammatical errors.
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But, might you deliver your advise better and make it sound more diplomatic or slightly more respectful??
Good luck dealing with professional editors, 'cause they're going to tear you a new one! ^_^ (Someone I knew told me that he got a rejection slip that said, and didn't go much beyond, "Your writing is infantile.")
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If you read it correctly, you would see why I put 'Today is no exception'. Read on affter that and it will become obvious. So, it should be me saying 'Duh'.
Uh... no. The way the sentence is structured? Not really. "Today is no exception, as the Jaezred Chaulssin call for a meeting in this war torn city"? Maybe "The Jaezred Chaulssin used this war-torn city for meetings, and today was no exception."
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Not to bash you, but has logic escaped you?? It is obvious that Xorthaul is speaking about Drak'ul.
I said "not immediately obvious." Again, I reiterate that they seem to have no reason to start talking about him; there's no set-up for it beforehand.
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With all due respect, I have seen many books with that sort of scene change. So, try to be a bit more polite in your critique, not criticism. See the difference??
Is it a good way to change scene? IMO, no. It's clumsy. It's heavy-handed.
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How about this?? Radu is concerned and confused, is that not allowed in the Drow way of life?? Ease up and learn to see things differently.
My issue was with the way you phrased it.
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Nit pickin, much??
Your point being?
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Everyone knows what that expression means. I am sorry if you don't.
I am sorry that, even though you are not yet a bestselling author, you are already pulling an Anne Rice. (Rejecting editorial input because she thinks her writing is that good, went berserk on Amazon reviewers because they -- gasp, shock and horror -- dared to comment on her book negatively. Do you see the resemblance? One thing, though, is that you haven't yet published over a dozen books and raked in the money she has; in her case, she can treat her fans like crap, behave like a brat, and still make money.)
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For those who know Lumley's work, will know 'Radu Ly'kan' as Radu Lykan. Besides, its a name and there is nothing wrong with the name. Nit picking again. Ease up.
Uhhm, no? There's a character in the Sembian series named Radu Malveen.
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Have you ever written a book??
Why "a book" and not a novel, a novella, or a short story? Either way, yes. I've written something that approached 200k word count, am writing something that's approaching 80k, and just finished two short stories.
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If not, try not to be so damn critical.
How else would one improve? Also, I find it amusing and a little sad that you think writing is some sacred art that's beyond criticism.
Oh, and I got my writing ripped apart last week. The comments included, but were not limited to: over twenty corrections/suggestions on how to improve certain phrases, whole paragraphs, and typos; comment that my dialogue is stilted in places, and comment on my choice of a location's name. I got positively giddy and gushed my thanks to the person, and begged her most politely to point out specific instances because I wanted to know what I could do to make it better. Then I showed her my edited version and thanked her all over again.
The last time I reacted badly to concrit on my writing was when I was, uhm, thirteen (in the age of dial-up connections *shudders*). Then I took time to step away from the computer, composed myself, and later sent the person a thank-you note.
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As far as I am concerned, you are a Mod in a forum, not a professional writer.
ROFL! So you think only a professional writer's qualified to comment on your sacrosanct magnum opus?
Also: I was made a mod? Really? Nobody passed me the memo. :(
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Khaa: Thank you for your input. You are one of the two who have responded with constructive feedback and not actually bashing a writer.
At which point did I level criticism at you as a person? Really, do point them out. I could start calling your writing puerile (which I didn't), and it'd still be directed at the writing, not you. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 12 Dec 2005 19:01:22 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 19:49:47
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I find myself having to, at least to a degree, agree with Winterfox, in the following manner. I have had articles come back from Dragon Magazine that were slashed and burned with tons of notes written in the margins (this was at least ten years ago, to put this in perspective),and I can assure you, Winterfox's criticisms aren't much more harsh than what a professional editor would tell you . . . though she does indeed have a certain, ahem, charm about her comments. The point being, most of the things she pointed out very quite valid. You might not like the comments that accompanied her critique, but I have to say she was spot on with pretty much all of them.
Nobody does anything perfectly right out of the gates, and getting input from others give you a chance to hone your skill. It may hurt your ego once in a while, but trust me, if you ever do become a professional writer, you will get quite a few lumps and you will need to develop a pretty thick skin becuase of it.
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 12 Dec 2005 20:27:47 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 20:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
though she does indeed have a certain, ahem, charm about her comments.
Come on, "whiskey tango foxtrot" is always good for a cheap laugh. :D (Okay, fine, I'm easily amused.) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 12 Dec 2005 20:10:20 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 20:35:17
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Winterfox, I am aware that I will be recieving negative input. But it is sad when one is too quick to burn and not actually help an aspiring writer. Have you ever stopped and took the time to think that burnin might be a bad way to approach things?? Quite the concept, is it not??
As for the Anne Rice thing, you couldn't be more wrong. Like I said previously, I seek input that will help me, not burn. See the distinction??
As for your snide remark on the small history lesson, it was an explaination. Thought you knew.
You assumed that I was from Norway. Never assume anything. Thought you knew that too.
If I get torn a new one by a professional editor so be it. Atleast they will be more helpful than you have been.
As for the Jaezred Chaulssin talkin about Drak'ul, the set up was all there. You seriously missed that or somethin, cause I will not put it more clearer than it already is.
You opinion about the way I changed the scene. Well, opinions are like a**holes, we all gots one.
Your mention of the Sembian, Radu. Ummm, I care not. Like it or leave it. Your choice.
Improvin from criticism. All good, but when it comes to burns, its a killjoy and its not needed.
Last but not least. Crazy Lady vs MZB, I ain't about that and nor will I ever be. Try not to be mistaken and don't assume what you don't know.
And for everybody. I ain't mad about negative input. Thats on the real. But when it comes to burns, and I must say, Winterfox that is what you have posted, will not be used as helpful feedback. Like I said, this is and hopefully will be a successful book, but my main talent is poetry and I gots the props to proove it. I ain't got much poetry posted, but you will find it on www.poetry.com. Simply do a Name Search and you will find my poems. Peeps might agree with me and they might not. But, like I said, I will take positive AND negative feedback into serious consideration. Burn me and please believe, I WILL burn back. Like the old sayin goes: What go round, come round. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Dec 2005 20:40:15 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 20:43:22
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| Oh, and practicing proper English and using proper grammatical structure on a regular basis is also a good way to improve your writing skills. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 20:47:15
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While you may consider Winterfox's comments sarcastic, and you can take issue with her for that if you want, of course, but in all honesty, she did point out some valid issues with your work.
Sometimes you will get valid commentary from people you don't agree with or aren't happy with, but you may need to separate the critique from the critic. You contend that she didn't help you at all, but she really did give you some good input.
All of that having been said, I think I'm pretty well done with this thread.
Peace out my Norwegean American Hommey . . . |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 21:01:00
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quote:
But it is sad when one is too quick to burn and not actually help an aspiring writer.
Define "help." You consider pointing out grammatical errors, things to improve on, and the like, not to be help? I'm afraid that I'll have to stand by my impression that you are looking for gushing, vapid praise rather than comments of substance.
quote:
You assumed that I was from Norway. Never assume anything. Thought you knew that too.
In which case, it saddens me ever so slightly that English is, in fact, your first language.
quote:
Last but not least. Crazy Lady vs MZB, I ain't about that and nor will I ever be. Try not to be mistaken and don't assume what you don't know.
Uhhm, you missed the point. I was pointing out that as a reason as to why many professional authors will not look at fanfiction.
quote:
Burn me and please believe, I WILL burn back.
ROFL! I'm quaking in my footwear. Really I am.
Sorry, but I think you need to grow a thicker skin. |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 21:02:12
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KnightErrantJR: Yes, I switch writing types because when I burn back, that is how I type. I am from the streets of Portland, OR and Beantown, MA. Its who I am and I will not change for nobody. But that don't mean that I ain't got love for those who give love.
Winterfox: I am done with you. I have said my piece and yet you continue to burn. That is on you and nobody else. Sorry it had to be this way, but you brought it on yourself. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Dec 2005 21:05:24 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 21:07:47
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Well met
Now now, let's not go throwing tomes at each other.
Drakul, thy attempts at fiction and requesting help and guidance are always welcome here at Candlekeep, as are writings from others. Bear in mind though, that Winterfox is poised to leap on such requests for critique, and will be very honest and to the point. She takes a little getting used to, and her method of giving advice and feedback is a little...ahem, well, i'm sure ye know  Nevertheless, reading between the lines, there is some very good and useful advice given. I wish ye all the best in thy venture 
Winterfox, thank ye for thy comments, now ye can put thy flail away for a while |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Deverien Valandil
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 21:27:00
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Hello. For future reference, I'm pretty certain that works of fiction like this are supposed to go under the 'Adventuring' forum section.
If you really intend to submit this to an official source, I'd advise you to get a beta-reader to actively go over it in detail and offer specific ways to improve. I know that's what you intended when you posted it here, but then you might only have people giving it a brief glance as opposed to a close analysis. It's often better to have a beta-reader who can look it over individually, especially if you're certain that their grammar or writing skills are better than your own.
Now, to the critique you asked for:
1. You seem to have used a whole gaggle of names in the first two scenes. I'm no expert on drow, so I can appreciate the need to mention the details of drow culture to the reader, but you might want to introduce the characters and pieces of lore a bit slower, instead of squeezing it all in a single page or two.
2. This one is just a minor thing, but it might be a good idea to put a space between each paragraph. Makes the text a bit easier on the eyes.
3. I notice that you accidentally slip into past tense in a few spots. I tend to make mistakes like that too, so don't feel bad, but it's something to keep in mind.
4. One of the most important things to keep an eye on in any written piece is punctuation, especially in dialogue. It's easy to make mistakes here, so here are two handy-dandy pointers...
-Ending punctuation stays inside the quotes.
("...bla bla.", but not "...bla bla".)
-Only use commas at the end or beginning of dialogue if you're connecting with a speech verb like 'says','exclaims', or 'asks'. Not with other action verbs.
(He runs away while shouting, "Bla bla!", but not "He runs away, "Bla bla!").
5. Don't be afraid to edit your story, and don't stop writing. Seriously. It's a good idea to get into the habit of writing and rewriting constantly and consistently.
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2005 : 09:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Deverien Valandil
Hello. For future reference, I'm pretty certain that works of fiction like this are supposed to go under the 'Adventuring' forum section.
If you really intend to submit this to an official source, I'd advise you to get a beta-reader to actively go over it in detail and offer specific ways to improve. I know that's what you intended when you posted it here, but then you might only have people giving it a brief glance as opposed to a close analysis. It's often better to have a beta-reader who can look it over individually, especially if you're certain that their grammar or writing skills are better than your own.
Now, to the critique you asked for:
1. You seem to have used a whole gaggle of names in the first two scenes. I'm no expert on drow, so I can appreciate the need to mention the details of drow culture to the reader, but you might want to introduce the characters and pieces of lore a bit slower, instead of squeezing it all in a single page or two.
2. This one is just a minor thing, but it might be a good idea to put a space between each paragraph. Makes the text a bit easier on the eyes.
3. I notice that you accidentally slip into past tense in a few spots. I tend to make mistakes like that too, so don't feel bad, but it's something to keep in mind.
4. One of the most important things to keep an eye on in any written piece is punctuation, especially in dialogue. It's easy to make mistakes here, so here are two handy-dandy pointers...
-Ending punctuation stays inside the quotes.
("...bla bla.", but not "...bla bla".)
-Only use commas at the end or beginning of dialogue if you're connecting with a speech verb like 'says','exclaims', or 'asks'. Not with other action verbs.
(He runs away while shouting, "Bla bla!", but not "He runs away, "Bla bla!").
5. Don't be afraid to edit your story, and don't stop writing. Seriously. It's a good idea to get into the habit of writing and rewriting constantly and consistently.
Now THIS is helpful. Everyone makes mistakes, its a part of learning. DV, your suggestions are noted and considered. However, to avoid burns like the ones from WF, I have a friend who will help me better. To everyone else that gave actual helpful critique, I thank y'all as well. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2005 : 09:38:07
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I am by no means a professional writer. But I do read a lot of books and as a reader, I feel you are giving me too much, too fast. Try starting off with one character, maybe refer back to the meeting in his thoughts. Because to be honest I lose interest if the author hands be the whole story on a platter right off the get-go.
Try writing the first few chapters, then the prologue. When I read prologues in other books, they are little samples from the main body of the story that teases me, but doesn't let me bite down. That's when I want to read more.
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And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 14 Dec 2005 09:38:46 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2005 : 23:44:53
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| The critique Deverien Valandil posted is not too dissimilar to that of Winterfox. Yes, the phrasing is different, but while she may be blunt, I don't recall seeing her being less than fair. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 10:03:01
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| I never said that she was not fair. However, what she posted was not helpful. All it was is a burn. Its like nothing is good enough for her tastes and frankly, that is the issue with her. Its not my problem that she has problems with others' Fan Fiction. Truth is, she needs to be more objective in her critique. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 11:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
I never said that she was not fair. However, what she posted was not helpful. All it was is a burn. Its like nothing is good enough for her tastes and frankly, that is the issue with her. Its not my problem that she has problems with others' Fan Fiction. Truth is, she needs to be more objective in her critique.
Winterfox was not trying to burn you. Her words may have been harsh, but she was trying to offer you the help you asked for.
As Big Al pointed out, she does take some getting used to -- I've been here for over a year and a half, and I'm still not entirely used to her self-proclaimed snarky-ness. But she's honest, and I've never seen her attack someone with the intent to flame them.
Personally, if I was going to try to get something published, I'd welcome her input. It might make me run home crying (), but it would be useful and I'd carefully consider her words. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 14:27:23
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Well, I think the plot is fairly decent (though I am biased towards Drow and things of that nature). But it seems like almost too much is going on in the prologue to be considered a prologue. I think you should focus on one engagement in the prologue and start the rest as Chapter 1.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Aspiring novelist seeks critique
