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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 21:46:49
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I use the 3.5 rules for my game, but use the 3.0 FR Campaign Handbook. Is it a must for me to get the Player's Guide to Faerun? I hear that it changes a lot of the stuff in the Campaign Handbook for 3.5. Are the changes really that significant?
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And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 22:37:18
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Hello Mazrim_Taim,
In my experience, my players don't often refer to the Player’s Guide to Faerûn often during play, except to reference spell descriptions for spells that aren’t in any of the other books..
I myseslf almost never use it, except as another reference for magic items to use in my Realms Campaign because the game designers also chose to include previously unconverted Realms material from 1st, 2nd (and 3rd) edition in the book.
My experiences out of the way, I think that if you and/or your players are very big on sticking close to the game rules/game mechanics, then you might want to pick the book up.
Player’s Guide to Faerûn updates the following (by Chapter):- Regions and Feats. The book reorgs the regional feat system and updates some Realms feats to 3.5. More character regions are included as well.
- Prestige Classes. Page 47 of the Player’s Guide to Faerûn lists 30 unique Realms Prestige Classes, several of which are updated from previous books (such as the Arcane Devotee and the Divine Champion/Disciple/Seeker from the FRCS).
- Domains and Spells. Reorgs domains from the FRCS, also has updates for spells from Magic of Faerûn. Note: It’s my not so humble opinion that the game designers really castrated a lot of spells for this book. We use the spell references in Magic of Faerûn instead of the updated ones in the Player’s Guide to Faerûn.
- Magic Items. This is the part of the book I use the most, since it’s got more than just updated items from Magic of Faerûn in it. A very creative, lore filled section.
- The rest of the book. The remaining four chapters give information on using the rules found in Epic Level Handbook in a Realms Campaign, lists Epic Realms Prestige Class progressions, advises DMs on how to use The Book of Exalted Deeds and The Book of Vile Darkness in a campaign, updates DMs on what’s been going on in the Realms since the FRCS was released, and includes a badly needed chapter on the Cosmology of Toril.
But if the rules aren’t that big a deal, than you’ll probably be fine without it.
The only other reason I might recommend picking it up is if you plan to start a new 3.5 game or maybe run a character instead of being DM this time around, because it’s a reasonably comprehensive update rules-wise for building uniquely FR characters.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 22:38:00
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Ummm, you know, as I've actually been doing some crunchy researcvh lately, I've found how invaluable it when looking at latest versions of feats (especially Regional feats) and updated PrCs (like the incantatrix). For Rules content I'd say it's the best FR tome released to date.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 22:58:54
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I may have to pick it up then. I don't normally DM so I'm very interested in character creationy stuff, if ya know what I mean 
Edit: And the Magic Items part would be invaluable to me as I have a ton of old FR Magic Tomes 
I also love lore |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 20 Nov 2005 23:04:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 01:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ummm, you know, as I've actually been doing some crunchy researcvh lately, I've found how invaluable it when looking at latest versions of feats (especially Regional feats) and updated PrCs (like the incantatrix). For Rules content I'd say it's the best FR tome released to date.
-- George Krashos
Krash, you're starting to scare me a little. All this talk of rules is strange... especially coming from you   .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 01:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Note: It’s my not so humble opinion that the game designers really castrated a lot of spells for this book. We use the spell references in Magic of Faerûn instead of the updated ones in the Player’s Guide to Faerûn.
What, like Ball Lightning, which has some really bad rules templating and got errataed so it could be usable in combat rounds without tearing your hair out? Or Battletide, which was reliant on an action type completely removed from 3.5? Blinding Spittle, which was dramatically overpowered at 1st level? Blindsight, which referenced the blindsight feat(which most people didn't have access to), not the ability? Bombardment, which needed to be reprinted for page reference changes? Claws of the beast, which went up in damage by a die type? Cloud of Bewilderment I might agree with you with, if stinking cloud was still 2nd level in 3.5-and it isn't, so Cloud of Bewilderment gets tossed into the overpowered bin. Elminster's Effulgent Epuration went up in effectiveness and was re-templated because of some insanities in the original writeup(like blocking area spells and trying to count the spell levels of spell-like abilities). Fiendform references polymorph self-I don't think I need to say anymore on that. Forceward contained contradictory rulings and some really confusing elements. Gedlee's Electric Loop gained in power(you can count adjacencies diagonally on 5 ft diagonals.) Glory of the Martyr needed to be reprinted as it became an Initiate spell and shield other underwent changes, IIRC. Handfire became an initiate spell and got cut in half because it greatly outstripped any other 1st level spell in power. Harmony needed to be re-templated because of bard song ability wording changes and to clarify its effects. Holy star was re-templated because of cover rule changes and does more damage with a fire ray now. Inferno gained possible damage, clarity, and can target possibly more creatures now. Mace of Odo became an Initiate spell and gained an attack on the round of its casting. Mystic lash went up in damage and became an Initiate spell. Nature's Balance changed because of the changes to the ability enhancement spells in the Player's Handbook. Nybor's gentle reminder went up in effectiveness for damage, gained duration and lost the Strength bonus because you can't grant circumstance bonuses to Strength anymore. The other Nybor's x spells were changed because of the changes to Nybor's gentle reminder. Prismatic eye was redone for clarity, I suppose-it's nearly the same in both versions. Rosemantle became an initiate spell and was overpowered(since when did 1st level spells granting the effects of 2nd level spells and more make any sense?). Simbul's Spell Matrix, Spell Sequencer, and Spell Trigger were overpowered, I suppose, and needed more rules clarity. Skull of Secrets became an initiate spell and needed a short rewrite to be noted as a line for its flame tongue effect. Spectral stag was redone for the same rules clarity change(a note of size) as prismatic eye was. Spell enhancer received a rules change because of clarifications to Quicken Spell(and really needs a reprint as a spell with an swift action casting time). Spellmantle received rules clarifications. Spell phylactery became an initiate spell. Spell shield went up in power and became an initiate spell. Stone walk went up in power and received rules clarifications. Summon undead added a specified alignment subtype and a small clarification of a cleric corner case. Transcribe Symbol got added to the Rune domain and received minor rules clarifications, most due to the changes to symbol in 3.5. Undead Bane Weapon received minor rules clarifications due to the new DR types. Undeath after Death received a really tiny rules clarification(it's nine characters long). Undeath's Eternal Foe gained minor rules clarifications and became an initiate spell. Understand Device went up in power and became an Initiate spell. Vipergout received rules clarifications. Wieldskill was arguably overpowered.
So maybe 8 spells that they possibly "nerfed"? Or did I miss something? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 02:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Krash, you're starting to scare me a little. All this talk of rules is strange... especially coming from you .
Oh, me too buddy. I'm currently working on two projects (one for the Compendium) that has me hopping through 5 rulebooks at a time. Ick.
I can tell you - the realmslore is way easier.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 02:55:02
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Arivia,
I don't know what your problem is, and frankly I don't care.
But, if clarity (which means ‘all the spells I think were ruined or otherwise didn’t need toying with’ as opposed to ‘all the spells you feel I might have been talking about, which is reason enough for you to be up in arms, but strangely not enough reason to ask me specifically what I meant in lieu of going off on me’.) will help you avoid getting so unnecessarily agitated, well then here you go: [list]
Elminster's Effulgent Epuration: Went down in effectiveness. The spell was never overpowered to begin with. And get this: spell like abilities can be thought of as the same level as a regular spell of the same name. What a concept! All of a sudden figuring out an SLA's value is a lot less insane. Natch.
Initiate spells: …suck. They’re a cool idea to be sure, but they’re also crap in so many ways. They’re far too much of a feat sacrifice for a ‘reward’. They take up way too much space in the books just to give a spell or two at most to a character faithful to one specific deity. The concept pigeonholed spells (like the ones you mentioned that were re-assigned) that rightly should be available to more than one faith. I chose to continue to give access to these spells to my players, because they originally did have access to them when the campaign started.
Prismatic Eye: …was emasculated. What reason is there to give a fixed DC (19) for the spell? Did they think setting the attack bonus at +6 (ala Magic of Faerûn) was not enough? A really pointless revision.
“Simbul's Spell Matrix, Spell Sequencer, and Spell Trigger were overpowered, I suppose...” says you. After having played with these spells for four straight years in the same campaign, we came to the conclusion the new versions are all but useless. That’s the difference between “I suppose” and “real campaign experience”.
All the rest: Obviously a bunch of spells were revised for 3.5. Just as obviously, I pointed this out in my first post. Even more obviously, I don’t have a problem with this, nor did I say that I did.
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Or did I miss something?
From my PoV, that’s an affirmative. But you also pointed out several spells that (in your opinion at least) got a boost, so maybe it all works out in the end.
But whatever. If you feel the need to reply, please be courteous enough start a new scroll, so that Mazrim_Taim doesn’t have to wade through the rules minutia, thanks.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 21 Nov 2005 04:29:29 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 03:59:13
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J. Grenemyer,
If you don't like the "new" versions of the spells so much, just revert back to the 1E and 2E versions, for the most part they just "translate over."
Also, in your listing of the PGtF, you forgot about the small section that bring the Expanded Psionics Handbook to the Realms, or the small bit of history update dealing with the Archwizard Trilogy and the War of the Spider Queen Series.
Not to forget this is the only book that really details the new and current Realms Cosmology.
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News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 04:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
If you don't like the "new" versions of the spells so much, just revert back to the 1E and 2E versions, for the most part they just "translate over."
This is a pretty useless statement. The spells don’t translate over, and I happen to like the new (3.0) versions just fine.
But this thread isn’t about me, it’s about Mazrim_Taim asking questions and needing answers, remember?
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Also, in your listing of the PGtF, you forgot about the small section that bring the Expanded Psionics Handbook to the Realms..
You’re correct, I missed this. Good point and worth noting incase Mazrim (or anyone else reading the thread) uses psionics.
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
…,or the small bit of history update dealing with the Archwizard Trilogy and the War of the Spider Queen Series.
Incorrect. My fifth bullet point included, “…updates DMs on what’s been going on in the Realms since the FRCS was released.”
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Not to forget this is the only book that really details the new and current Realms Cosmology.
Incorrect. My fifth bullet point also included, “…and includes a badly needed chapter on the Cosmology of Toril.”
Not reading a post all the way through before going after somebody used to get me into all sorts of hot water on the WotC boards, so I know what it’s like to make that mistake, warlocko.
Anyway, if anyone else wants to harass me, please PM me.
This is Mazrim_Taim’s thread.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 04:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I don't know what your problem is, and frankly I don't care.
What problem? I'm just interested in how a collection of rules clarifications and power upgrades=terrible.
quote:
Elminster's Effulgent Epuration: Went down in effectiveness. The spell was never overpowered to begin with. And get this: spell like abilities pretty much can be thought of as the same level as the spell of the same name. What a concept! All of a sudden counting there value is a lot less insane. Natch.
The spell-like abilities bit is a corner case relating to a white dragon's freezing fog ability in 3.0, for example. It's been cleaned up in 3.5 with the necessitated spell equivalencies line. The spell's still gone up in power, now that each sphere=one spell gone, instead of x spheres=one spell gone, where x=the spell's level.
quote:
Initiate spells: …suck. They’re a cool idea to be sure, but they’re also crap in so many ways. They’re far too much of a feat sacrifice for a ‘reward’. They take up way too much space in the books just to give a spell or two at most to a character faithful to one specific deity. The concept pigeonholed spells (like the ones you mentioned that were re-assigned) that rightly should be available to more than one faith. I chose to continue to give access to these spells to my players, because they originally did have access to them when the campaign started.
You do realize that the Initiate feat system makes a lot more sense than the system in Magic of Faerun does in terms of the setting(we've gone over why Initiate feats are good endless times here)-and you're not forgetting the unusually good benefits from the initiate feat itself, right? Oh, and if you think those are bad, look at the Initiate feats in Races of Destiny-I saw those, went "oh yes", flipped to the back and my face just fell-they're terrible.
quote:
Prismatic Eye: …was emasculated. What reason is there to give a fixed DC (19) for the spell? Did they think setting the attack bonus at +6 (ala Magic of Faerûn) was not enough? A really pointless revision.
Fine, then show me the line in the original prismatic eye writeup that includes the save guidelines that the save line alludes to. Hint: they're not there. Now try ruling about that-is the save DC based on a prismatic spray(17+int) or the eye(16+int)? It's still generating the effects of a spell a level higher than it is, and with a lot more flexibility at that.
quote:
“Simbul's Spell Matrix, Spell Sequencer, and Spell Trigger were overpowered, I suppose...” says you. After having played with these spells for four straight years in the same campaign, we came to the conclusion the new versions are all but useless. That’s the difference between “I suppose” and “real campaign experience”.
Okay, but the grand conclusion in 3.5 has been that contingency type effects(of which that body of spells is one) are very powerful, and need careful watching like DC increase effects. The days of 2e's contingent chain lightnings are gone-the new system doesn't support them. |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 07:21:40
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**looks around nervously**
Well I saw the comment about Psionics...so yeah. I played Dark Sun before FR and we used Psionics liberally, I think I may throw in some villians with it but as to my player characters...well they're new to D&D anyway I dont want to confuse them with some new rules and all that |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 12:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I can tell you - the realmslore is way easier.
Only because you have years of practice at it! |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 15:06:06
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I do like how in PGtF, they make sure to include a nice quick history of the Return of the Archwizards, and the first three books of the War of the Spider Queen. Also, I really like the new regional breakdowns as they mention what type of elves are typically from where, what dwarves are from where - very cool.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Is Players Guide to Faerun a must?
