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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 17:04:29
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I find myself curious about the origin of the elves of Faerūn. All we know really is that they migrated to Faerūn from another world (or worlds) and that some of the sun & moon elves came from an obliterated island nation called Tintageer found on a world or a plane called Faerie.
In the Spelljammer module Crystal Spheres, there is described a crystal sphere called Faeriespace. The sphere is taken up entirely by a cosmic tree. And the worlds of this sphere hang like fruit from its branches. A goodly section of the module is devoted to describing the system.
I was wondering if anyone thought that Tintageer might have once been located on a world within that crystal sphere. This would have been over 25,000 years ago, before Tintageer was razed by an epic tidal wave.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 17:30:26
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Well, Gray, in Evermeet, Elaine Cunningham lets us know that they come from a land named "Faerie," which may very well be part of this Faeriespace that you are mentioning. You might want to ask her, as I think FR has put the responsibility of the origin of elves in Faerun in her lap. 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 21:50:51
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I recently reread this passage, and I'm actually not convinced the elves necessarily came from another world. By my reading of Evermeet, the elves could have come from an archipelago far from Faerun but on Abeir-Toril.
Just a curious insight.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Naeryndam
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 01:33:31
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| Where is Tinageer and where is Faerie? Is there a map or something? Wait a minute...didn't I hear somebody wrote a sourcebook on Faerie? |
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Azazel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 02:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I recently reread this passage, and I'm actually not convinced the elves necessarily came from another world. By my reading of Evermeet, the elves could have come from an archipelago far from Faerun but on Abeir-Toril.
Just a curious insight.
--Eric
According to the FR Campaign Setting, Races of Faerūn and Serpent Kingdoms elves are not native to Abeir-Toril. The 5 Creator races were the sarrukh, the batrachi, the aearee, the fey, and the humans (some sages leave out the aearee but include dragon in this list). Elves, dwarves and some human ethnic groups were immigrants to Abeir-Toril from other worlds. Evermeet was created in -17600 DR by use of Elven High Magic, prior to that time some elves had already migrated to the Moonshae Isles. |
Edited by - Azazel on 20 Nov 2005 02:17:50 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 02:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I recently reread this passage, and I'm actually not convinced the elves necessarily came from another world. By my reading of Evermeet, the elves could have come from an archipelago far from Faerun but on Abeir-Toril.
Just a curious insight.
--Eric
According to the FR Campaign Setting, Races of Faerūn and Serpent Kingdoms elves are not native to Abeir-Toril. The 5 Creator races were the sarrukh, the batrachi, the aearee, the fey, and the humans (some sages leave out the aearee but include dragon in this list). Elves, dwarves and some human ethnic groups were immigrants to Abeir-Toril from other worlds. Evermeet was created in -17600 DR by use of Elven High Magic, prior to that time some elves had already migrated to the Moonshae Isles.
I'm aware of the other sources. My point was simply that at the time "Evermeet" was new, we all assumed that it told the story of moon and gold elves arriving on Abeir-Toril. Later works went with that assumption. I was simply pointing out that the designers could have gone another way.
Moreover, even if the elves are interloper race, it's not clear when they first arrived. (For example, the moon and gold elves might have arrived circa -50,000 DR in other parts of Abeir Toril and then moved to Faerun at the time indicated in the Evermeet book.) I'd have to check all the relevant sources to see if this explanation (assuming it was desirable) is even still possible.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Azazel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 04:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Naeryndam
Where is Tinageer and where is Faerie? Is there a map or something? Wait a minute...didn't I hear somebody wrote a sourcebook on Faerie?
Faerie is an otherworldly realm loosely connected to Faerun (SK p.55). I believe this is the same as the Plane of Faerie described in the 3e Manual of the Planes p.210, or at least someplace very similar to it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 06:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
quote:
Originally posted by Naeryndam
Where is Tinageer and where is Faerie? Is there a map or something? Wait a minute...didn't I hear somebody wrote a sourcebook on Faerie?
Faerie is an otherworldly realm loosely connected to Faerun (SK p.55). I believe this is the same as the Plane of Faerie described in the 3e Manual of the Planes p.210, or at least someplace very similar to it.
Aye! It is part of the Variant Planes and Cosmologies Appendix. Also, there's an impressive detailing of "a" plane of Faerie in the d20 Bastion Press supplement FAERIES by Bryon Wischstadt. I picked it up on the recommendation of Sage Schend quite a number of months ago now, and I'm still finding ways that I can use the great material presented within. It's certainly one of the best 3rd party sourcebooks printed to date for the d20 system.
And even if you don't use the material for your campaigns, the sourcebook itself doubles as a fantastic read for those just generally curious about fey cultures in fantasy settings.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 08:00:08
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Hmmm... I hadn't considered that Eric. I suppose Tintageer could possibly have been on Faerūn. Perhaps the elves migrated to Tintageer from Faerie. I guess we can't rule that out.
Although I find the idea more appealing that Tintageer was located in Faerie. I always thought the elves chose the name "Faerūn" as an homage to their lost world. I figure "Faerūn" meant something like "new Faerie" or "little Faerie" or some such. I know that Faerūn is supposed to mean "The One Land" but I always felt that the name had multiple meanings or connotations and that the elves intended for "Faerūn" to sound like "Faerie".
Ed said in his Jan 27 '05 answer that "Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerūn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as gates) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name Forgotten Realms, which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer)...
The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though its very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, Ill very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect)."
Ed's quote has captured my imagination ever since.
We know from Evermeet that it was only Sun & Moon elves that migrated from Tintageer, and that Dark Elves seem to have come from somewhere else.
Dark Elves may have migrated from a world called Threnody. This world is mentioned in the Kiaransalee section of Demihuman Deities p.23. Sounds like Kiaransalee exterminated her whole planet in a massive genocide. Perhaps some surviving Dark Elves fled to Faerūn. Although when this happened, and if this was before or after the Tintageer refugees arrived, I don't know for sure.
There is also a Plane of Faerie in the Manual of the Planes. And I love the description of that plane in there. Faerūn seems to have tenuous links to a Plane of Faerie. I assume the fey crossroads in Magic of Faerūn travel through this Plane of Faerie. I also assume this plane has ties to the fey creator race. And maybe some lost Fey gods which may or may not be the ones from the sourcebook Monster Mythology.
Whether this is an outer plane in Faerūns cosmology, I don't know. Perhaps it is one of the "lost" planes or a plane that is in the process of becoming lost--slipping beyond the Astral slowly losing all its links to the prime. Or maybe it was never an outer plane at all but another kind of transitive plane. There are more questions than answers really.
One might also deduce that there are 2 Faeries. A prime world and a plane. There would seem to be a prime material world (or crystal sphere) named "Faerie" where Tintageer was located and from which the elves came, and also a plane named "Faerie". The world might be found within the plane. Or the world and the plane may have nothing at all to do with each other beyond sharing a name.
Perhaps the crystal sphere of Faeriespace can be worked into the equation somehow. I was considering whether Faeriespace might be a candidate for the prime-material plane of Faerie that Ed was talking about in his quote above. It is established D&D canon, though not necessarily part of FR canon. Even though it is from an old 2E Spelljammer module, it might still be desirable to link it to the lore of Tintageer.
I think there must be very interesting answers to these questions. But the lore is very sparse. I am very curious what the explanations may turn out to be. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2005 : 15:56:08
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Careful review of the Kiaransalee entry in Demihuman Deities suggests a timeline which could possibly place Dark Elf refugees from Threnody arriving in Faerūn before -30,000 DR.
Kiaransalee was once a mortal dark elf.
She was a necromancer queen of Threnody.
Threnody was the name of her world.
Her husband was King of Threnody (presumably the entire world?)
Her husband named her "drow" and banished her.
Kiaransalee fled.
She took followers with her.
She transformed the followers into undead to ensure loyalty.
She experimented for centuries and raised an army of undead.
She returned to Threnody with her army to exact vengeance.
She left it a dead world. (Presumably some Dark Elves escaped.)
From Threnody she fled to the Abyss.
She eventually achieved a measure of divine power.
She ascended to godhood before Araushnee was banished.
Araushnee was banished circa -30,000 DR.
From this I conclude that Kiaransalee destroyed her world some time before -30,000 DR. If so, then it is possible refugee Dark Elves escaped to Faerūn prior to -30,000 DR.
However, we don't know for sure that this is true. I am only assuming there were survivors from Threnody. If she killed everyone then there would be no refugees.
Secondly, even if there were Dark Elf survivors, we don't know that they went directly to Faerūn. They might have first escaped to somewhere else, such as the world (or plane) of Faerie. Which means they might not have migrated to Faerūn until later, perhaps much later, if at all.
So not conclusive, but it's a starting point. |
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Did the elves of Tintageer come from Faeriespace?
