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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 20:50:38
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Is anyone else reading this book? I'm about 70 pages into it. What intrigues me the most about this book, so far, is that apparently the author (Philip Athans) is weaving a lot of philosophy, esp. Objectivism (see the acknowledgments page) into the book--and from my own deduction, it's a philosophy that Athans seems to embrace, himself.
This might be a good thing, since I like hearing other people's philosophical viewpoints and seeing them materialize in literature, but the problem with this is that the protagonist might end up being a veritable mouthpiece for the author to, well, get preachy. And truth be told, I'm not sure I like Ivar Devorast so far--I'm not far into the book, but he does seem kinda preachy and aloof so far, esp. for a 22 year old. I tend to find that annoying even when I agree with such a person! I agree with some aspects of Objectivism but not all--indeed, I believe each person makes their own philosophy from a wide variety of sources. I've never read any philosophical work that I've agreed with 100%.
Still, I have to give Athans credit for trying to do something different with his book. I love the short, quick chapters, and I'm very much interested in a motif he is using--one of domineering mothers. After all, the need to please one's mother (or father) a universal theme that plenty of people can relate to (see City of Splendors as well). The descriptive prose is nice, and I also appreciate that the plot centers around craftsmen and creators (people who build the Realms) rather than, say, nobles who just sit around in villas or go adventuring for no apparent reason.
What do you all think?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Nov 2005 20:52:13
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 13:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Is anyone else reading this book?
Yes, I just started reading the tome. The short chapters were a bit startling at first. I noticed in his forward comments, Athans mentioned several sources from author and philosopher, Ayn Rand, as influences on this novel. I've never read anything from this person. However, the fact that he clearly mentions she's a philosopher gave this reader a clear warning that I'm probably going to experience a different type of Realms novel.
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2005 : 13:16:36
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| So is the book any good? Should I buy it? I dont have a lot of money right now, so I'm asking should i buy this trilogy, the Rogue Dragon trilogy or the House of Serpents trilogy? |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 02:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
So is the book any good? Should I buy it? I dont have a lot of money right now, so I'm asking should i buy this trilogy, the Rogue Dragon trilogy or the House of Serpents trilogy?
Yes, I think the story itself is good, and worth buying. :)
Alaundo, mind if I copy my thoughts in the new book club thread?
P.S. Still, both House of Serpents and Rogue Dragons are also worth the time and money... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 03:11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet:
So is the book any good? Should I buy it? I dont have a lot of money right now, so I'm asking should i buy this trilogy, the Rogue Dragon trilogy or the House of Serpents trilogy?
Yes. Although it is not a standard Realms novel, I believe the tome is worth a read and would choose this book over its counterparts in the other trilogies you mention.
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Carthago delenda est. |
Edited by - Ignorance Personified on 06 Nov 2005 03:13:23 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 03:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
As an aside, Any Rand's philosophy (using the term loosely) is Objectivism and Ivar is characterized in accordance with the central principles it advocates.
Yes indeed, I'm just not sure how great of a design decision that was: is Ivar going to be a person, or a personification of a certain philosophy?
Only time will tell, I guess. Some characters I love instantly, others I take time warming up to. Ivar might be in the latter group, and truth be told, he has some good qualities (he sticks by his mentor, for example). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 03:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin:
Yes indeed, I'm just not sure how great of a design decision that was: is Ivar going to be a person, or a personification of a certain philosophy?
If the Fountainhead is any indication it will be the personification of Ms. Rand's ideology.
***Shies away from the term philosophy slowly.*** |
Carthago delenda est. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 03:36:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin:
Yes indeed, I'm just not sure how great of a design decision that was: is Ivar going to be a person, or a personification of a certain philosophy?
If the Fountainhead is any indication it will be the personification of Ms. Rand's ideology.
***Shies away from the term philosophy slowly.***
All right then, idealogy. 
I just prefer reading about characters who are complex individuals, not merely a mouthpiece for the author (or else--I've once read--why not just write a pamplet?). But still, I'm only 130 pages in now, it's only fair to give the character time. The story itself is wonderful--it's amazing how interesting supposedly "mundane" stories, like building walls, ships, and forts, can turn out to be with some imagination. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Nov 2005 03:36:26 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 09:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
So is the book any good? Should I buy it? I dont have a lot of money right now, so I'm asking should i buy this trilogy, the Rogue Dragon trilogy or the House of Serpents trilogy?
Yes, I think the story itself is good, and worth buying. :)
Alaundo, mind if I copy my thoughts in the new book club thread?
P.S. Still, both House of Serpents and Rogue Dragons are also worth the time and money...
Well met
Oh certainly go ahead, my dear Rinonalyrna. I managed to pick the tome up only yesterday and will start on this myself once I have finished Midnight's Mask (due to start later today)  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 14:40:10
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quote:
Originally Posted by:Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The story itself is wonderful--it's amazing how interesting supposedly "mundane" stories, like building walls, ships, and forts, can turn out to be with some imagination.
I agree 100%. Whisper is one of the best Realms novels I have read this year (at least through the first 250 pages) and Mr. Athans' ability to craft "mundane" stories into grand adventures of political intrigue is largely responsible for this. |
Carthago delenda est. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 16:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
Originally Posted by:Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The story itself is wonderful--it's amazing how interesting supposedly "mundane" stories, like building walls, ships, and forts, can turn out to be with some imagination.
I agree 100%. Whisper is one of the best Realms novels I have read this year (at least through the first 250 pages) and Mr. Athans' ability to craft "mundane" stories into grand adventures of political intrigue is largely responsible for this.
Well met
Well the book certainly appears to be going down well  Will we be hearing more from ye in the Book Club, Ignorance Personified? |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 20:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Oh certainly go ahead, my dear Rinonalyrna.
Thank you Alaundo. I hope you enjoy the novel.
quote:
I agree 100%. Whisper is one of the best Realms novels I have read this year (at least through the first 250 pages) and Mr. Athans' ability to craft "mundane" stories into grand adventures of political intrigue is largely responsible for this.
Yes--who says a story about building things has to be boring? Honestly, I've decided that the character of Ivar is just one bruise on an otherwise lovely fruit. The two things I dislike the most about the protagonist are:
1) Ivar is very calm, brave, poised, and fairly well skilled in combat, in spite of the fact that he is a dedicated builder (not a warrior), even though we are not told anywhere in the novel that he has had even rudimentary weapons training. I don't feel the need to simply assume that he has, either. Also, we know that he is a guy who doesn't believe in fate, doesn't expect the gods to help him, believes that he has great plans for himself and must make his own destiny. Fine. So why does he have so little fear for his safety? I wouldn't have any less respect for him if he was afraid or suspicious every now and then. For example, I loved Arvin from the House of Sepents trilogy, and I didn't think he was a coward at those times when all he could think about was his own survival--that's just natural.
2) There are several characters in the books so far (mostly total strangers, and including a water naga!) who, upon meeting Ivar, see something "special" about him, something different, and at times think of him as some type of king among men. That is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, only one person (if any) seeing something "special" about the protagonist is acceptable, and I feel the same way about characters that are nice and likable, too. Ivar is a genius at building, but that's hardly a reason to idolize him, and in just about every other way he is either unremarkable or just plain conceited. I'd bet that most of us don't see "something special" in people right upon meeting them, we just see other people going about their lives and trying to make their way in the world. The fact that so many people in the book see Ivar as "special" make me wonder if this guy is...an author's darling, perhaps?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 16:17:30
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In response to Point #1: I agree, but as he seems to be Objectivism Personified I do not suspect this will change in the subsequent books of the trilogy...unfortunately.
In response to Point #2: I have no problem with the author emphasising Ivan's unique nature or various characters percieving him as "something speical" as Athans is portraying Devorast as an extraordinary individual. Throughout history, certain figures have inexplicably drawn people to them and those compelled to join them in their endeavors have freqeuntly reported expericing a "gut" feeling of the person's merit in their first encounter.
quote:
Honestly, I've decided that the character of Ivar is just one bruise on an otherwise lovely fruit. The two things I dislike the most about the protagonist are:
Yes, Ivar is the spoil child of Athans' otherwise expertely nurtured offspring...I mean novel.
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 17:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
Throughout history, certain figures have inexplicably drawn people to them and those compelled to join them in their endeavors have freqeuntly reported expericing a "gut" feeling of the person's merit in their first encounter.
But truth is stranger than fiction. People expect fiction to, well, make sense.
While I'm sure there are, and were, people who are like that, it doesn't necessarily make good reading. When I see a character whom every other character sees as "special" at first sight, my alarms go off -- author's darling is indeed a very appropriate term. It's often lazy, much in the same way as characters "intuitively" know something (usually preceded by the adverb "somehow" -- oh, what overused word it is). Sure, it can happen in real life, but in fiction, it'd look like a blatant plot contrivance. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 01:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
It's often lazy, much in the same way as characters "intuitively" know something (usually preceded by the adverb "somehow" -- oh, what overused word it is). Sure, it can happen in real life, but in fiction, it'd look like a blatant plot contrivance.
*nods* My thoughts exactly--there's just something lazy about having a bunch of strangers see "something special" about the protagonist that they--of course!--cannot quite put their finger on...especially if it's the author's way of wanting the reader to think the character is special, too. Even in real life, people following others isn't "inexplicible"--there is usually some concrete reason for it. With Ivar, I just don't see it. Like I said I have no problem with one person feeling this way, but when a whole bunch of diverse individuals mainly concerned with their own goals see this (including a water naga, for goodness's sake!), I start to wonder.
I finished the novel yesterday, and I'm sad to say this happens yet again. Phyrea, a young woman who is quite manipulative and self-absorbed, sees Ivar working at a distance, among a whole group of other workers--and almost immediately picks him out, sees him as "special", and pretty much falls in love with him. Yeah, right. The author can make me think a character is special by being more subtle about it, less heavy-handed.
I also think the book may suffer a bit because we never see things from Ivar's perspective. There is never any scene where we get inside Ivar's head and learn about how he thinks. The cynical part of me asks, "Is this because we wouldn't like what we'd see?"
But still. Just about every other part of the book is excellent and well-written, and every other character is interesting and human, so if you can stand the protagonist, Whisper of Wave is still worth the time it takes to read it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 10 Nov 2005 01:50:05 |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 02:30:19
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quote:
Originally Posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
My thoughts exactly--there's just something lazy about having a bunch of strangers see "something special" about the protagonist that they--of course!--cannot quite put their finger on...especially if it's the author's way of wanting the reader to think the character is special, too.
I see your point and concede that the novel would have been a more enjoyable if Athans' would have given a more detailed reason as to why so many characters were drawn to Devorast--especially his female companion at the novel's conclusion as you mentioned. I finished the novel recently and also found her encounter with Devorast to be the most unpolished aspect of the book.
quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfox:
But truth is stranger than fiction. People expect fiction to, well, make sense.
Yes, people do expect fiction to "make sense." Well, at least the smart ones do.
One minor quibble: It does not seem that history, which is an (hopefully) educated individual's (many times intentionally distorted) analysis of facts, qualifies as truth.
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Carthago delenda est. |
Edited by - Ignorance Personified on 10 Nov 2005 02:31:45 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 21:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
I see your point and concede that the novel would have been a more enjoyable if Athans' would have given a more detailed reason as to why so many characters were drawn to Devorast--especially his female companion at the novel's conclusion as you mentioned. I finished the novel recently and also found her encounter with Devorast to be the most unpolished aspect of the book.
I didn't much care for that scene, either (see my comments in the Book Club thread). That particular climax just plain seemed out of character for Devorast, and I couldn't figure out if the girl in question was simply imagining things. That whole scene was just "out of nowhere".
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 16:15:56
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| I had just watched a show about Leonardo DiVinci on the History Channel last night, and it got me to wondering if Athans had intentionally patterned Ivar at least a little bit on DiVinci. The whole "engineering genius" working as a weapons designer, then on regular projects, the comments about how his measurements were precise but his writting was sloppy and difficult to read for all of their genius, etc. Obviously there are aspects that don't match up with DiVinci, but I think there was a serious "basis" on this historical figure. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 18:21:23
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| I don't know--I think Ivar is based on the protagonist from Ayn Rand's Fountainhead. I read up a little on that novel, and there are a lot of similarities, including a character who works hard to please others rather than himself (like Willem). Also, much of Ivar's philosophy is based on Objectivism. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 06:08:46
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| Oh, I know that Ivar was based on Ayn Rand's character, especially considering his professed Atheiesm. But I don't think that was his only inspiration for the character. Then again, my wife is the Ayn Rand expert in the household . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 21:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, I know that Ivar was based on Ayn Rand's character, especially considering his professed Atheiesm. But I don't think that was his only inspiration for the character. Then again, my wife is the Ayn Rand expert in the household . . .
True--I think you make a good point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2006 : 20:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
As an aside, Any Rand's philosophy (using the term loosely) is Objectivism and Ivar is characterized in accordance with the central principles it advocates.
Yes indeed, I'm just not sure how great of a design decision that was: is Ivar going to be a person, or a personification of a certain philosophy?
Only time will tell, I guess. Some characters I love instantly, others I take time warming up to. Ivar might be in the latter group, and truth be told, he has some good qualities (he sticks by his mentor, for example).
I didn't like Ivar at first, but by the end of the book, he had become one of my favorite characters in a long time. Once I saw his humanity with the shou merchant, his dwarf buddies, and his mentor, he became more real to me. His complete confidence in himself was impressive, particularly in dealing with the naga. I also liked the juxtaposition between Ivar and Willem, how the paths they chose determined the life they would lead, and their ultimate happiness (contentment may be a better word.) This was definitely not your stndard fare, but it was an interesting book. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 09:18:40
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| (no one seems to answer in the other thread so I put it here)I was very enthusiastic about this book at first, but the prologue completely ruined the experience for me. The prologue implies that the project will fail, and why should I read a whole trilogy about something that fails completely in the end? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 21:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
(no one seems to answer in the other thread so I put it here)I was very enthusiastic about this book at first, but the prologue completely ruined the experience for me. The prologue implies that the project will fail, and why should I read a whole trilogy about something that fails completely in the end?
We don't know it will be a complete failure--we can't assume too much.
Complete confidence in oneself, I like. Never really failing at all in battle, I don't like.
Confidence does not, and should not, equal skill. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Feb 2006 21:32:11 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 22:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
We don't know it will be a complete failure--we can't assume too much.
But the prologue refers to the man`s dream as shattered, his work destroyed. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 22:13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
We don't know it will be a complete failure--we can't assume too much.
But the prologue refers to the man`s dream as shattered, his work destroyed.
Well, stuff can be rebuilt, you know. :) Let's not jump to conclusions--we don't know what's going to happen. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Whisper of Waves ('ware the spoilers)
