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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2005 : 21:35:55
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All I have to say with this is...What was whoever came up with this thinking?
There is absolutely zero information on the empire other than the creature type of their leaders, their classes, and what have you.
Part of the problem with the new way that the sourcebooks are set up is they have a tendancy to ignore USEFUL crunch and replace it with USELESS crunch.
Prestige Classes are fine and dandy, but when you have an evil empire with no troop statistics or major NPCs other than the two ogre magi at the top, that has existed since second edition, maybe a page or two could have been spent on that in the FRCS instead of, oh, I don't know, the city of shade and the excessively complicated shade template?
Now, granted, I AM planning to run a PC's destroy the Sythilissan Empire game. But mainly that's because "Obviously the people making the sourcebooks didn't think that an army of thousands was important enough to deal with."
Feel free to ask for a copy of the setup. (Kuje and I talked about this months ago and said it was fine, so I trust that it's at least decent.)
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 00:43:33
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The 2E "Lands of Intrigue" boxed set introduced this plot development. FRCS didn't expand upon it because that's not what the FRCS was out to do. The upcoming "Power of Faerūn" book updates the Sythillian situation. Hopefully that will be sufficient for your needs. Of course, you could always ... *gasp* ... make some stuff up yourself.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 03:59:34
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My problem here is not "I can't make anything up myself."
My problem here is twofold.
One: How much of a military force do these guys have such that they can hold off both Amn and Tethyr, neither of which are particularly friendly towards them.
Two: I'm really trying to figure out the kind of effect the actions of a small group of PC's would have on troop movements of Amn and Tethyr once things start getting to higher levels.
Now, you guys can just say "Do whatever you want" and I probably WILL. But, the sourcebook is also pretty vague. (I do own it, I'm not a moron, guys, really, no matter what I might say to Mr. Boyd.) :)
The things I don't mind estimating are "Adjusting the power level of individual X", making things a challenge for the party, whatever.
What I do mind is going through the trouble to do this only to hear the words "Sorry, there were 5,000 troops in this location."
I will reread the supplement to see if there is anything of particular use, but in the end, I'll probably just run the plot, kill the Empire off, and see what happens. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 06:02:14
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Well, there is no 'official' answer to your query - I suspect because Steven Schend left it open for DMs to put in X goblins, Y hill giants and Z mercenaries if they ran this plot development in their own games.
As to the answer to your first query: the answer is "enough". They have "enough" power to hold off the Amnian armies and hold onto the territory they've gained so far. Last time I heard, Tethyr wasn't doing anything other than protecting its own borders and the breakaway Amnian town (Riativin?): it isn't at war with the Sythillians. Of course, I could be wrong about that.
The answer to your second query can only be given in the context of your campaign and what your players want to do. Do they want to aid the 'war effort' generally (by raiding Sythillian camps/outposts; scouting for the Amnian armies; helping Amnians escape from Sythillian 'territory', etc.) or do they want to do specific things (assassinate the two ogre mages; lead a mercenary army to liberate Murann; infiltrate Murann to free the Council member trapped there; etc.)?
Before you start lamenting about the paucity of information in the sources, you might just want to get a feel for what your players want to do here. For all you know, they might travel to Athkatla, jump on a boat and go pirate hunting in the Nelanther: whereupon all your hard research and finely laid plans will be worse than useless.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 06:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, there is no 'official' answer to your query - I suspect because Steven Schend left it open for DMs to put in X goblins, Y hill giants and Z mercenaries if they ran this plot development in their own games.
As to the answer to your first query: the answer is "enough". They have "enough" power to hold off the Amnian armies and hold onto the territory they've gained so far. Last time I heard, Tethyr wasn't doing anything other than protecting its own borders and the breakaway Amnian town (Riativin?): it isn't at war with the Sythillians. Of course, I could be wrong about that.
How dare a loremaster mispell a Realms place name? Riatavin, actually.
Also, while looking this up, I noted my FRCS has acquired an awesome old book smell somehow... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 07:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
How dare a loremaster mispell a Realms place name? Riatavin, actually.
 You forgot the AGING before the loremaster. And if I had a $ for every little error that has snuck into the Realms because I missed it in the proofs - nothing major mind you (well okay, a few middling ones) - I'd buy the Realms off HASBRO. If only I could go back and fix 'em all.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 07:28:18
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Old Riatavin event from my game, somewhat ironically.
PC is being followed by someone in Riatavin. He walks by a young messenger boy while he's being tailed. He says "I need my party of adventurers. Look for the weirdest bunch in town." He hands the boy 50 GP. Instead of coming back with the PC's, the young messenger comes back with a surly looking group of seven Half-Orcs. The Half-Orcs try to strong arm the tailer, and a bidding war ensued, which the PC won. He then paid the half orcs off and left. :)
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 07:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
How dare a loremaster mispell a Realms place name? Riatavin, actually.
You forgot the AGING before the loremaster. And if I had a $ for every little error that has snuck into the Realms because I missed it in the proofs - nothing major mind you (well okay, a few middling ones) - I'd buy the Realms off HASBRO. If only I could go back and fix 'em all.
-- George Krashos
This is what black markers and errata are for, George... |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 07:33:39
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To get back on topic, the "Enough" answer works only insofar as your PC's are not brilliant geniuses, George.
I run a game for five people with IQs of 140+. They're all brilliant. They've seen a lot of stuff from me, and I've known them all for a very long time. My Realms world has run for 18 years as of this week. (My god, did I just say that?) And I run 3-5 active groups at any one time, in various parts of the world. It's nutso. :) Not all of them are as big of geniuses as the longest running group, but most of my players are "Pretty smart to disgustingly smart."
I have my work cut out for me every time I run. :) If I didn't have so much practice, I wouldn't be able to do that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 11:30:04
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I don't see what the intelligence of your players has to do with anything... It doesn't matter if you have Einstein or Charley from Flowers For Algernon in your group. Either way, the Empire has enough troops that no one has attempted regular military action against them.
Make up what you need and what works for your campaign. Remember, in the absence of specific lore, anything that complies with existing lore can thus be considered correct. It's your Realms. Have fun with them. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 16:43:27
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Well met!
In one of the campaigns in my gaming group our characters have gathered an army of about 150 brave crusaders called 'The Fist and Fury' (the army consists mostly of followers of Helm and Tempus) to battle the Sythillisian forces. I could give you *TONS* of details about our (mis)adventures in Amn.
Basicly, our DM decided that the Horde would not stop at taking Murann, and they kept on going towards Athkatla, until our characters and the crusaders finally stopped one of their advancing armies in Crimmor.
Our characters estimated the number of the Sythillisian forces to be about 100 000 goblins, orcs, troll barbarians, hill giants, mountain giants, etc.
We fought against many foes who has character/prestige class levels. Hobgoblin fighter/rogue/assassins, high-level orc and goblin warriors, troll barbarians, giant shamans (=adepts or clerics), ogre magi blackguards, etcetera. Not to forget those vile prestige classes from 'Book of Vile Darkness'
I suggest using 'Monster mythology', 'Savage Species' and 'Book of Vile Darkness'.
Oh, I almost forgot - our DM created a whole council of ogre mages to lead the forces, besided Sythillis and Cyrvisnea. Ogre magi monks are tough to kill, believe me  
Also, we had a lot information how Twisted Rune, Church of Cyric, Shoon VII and Knights of the Shield were all politically involved/allied with this army of evil.
Hopefully this helps, at least a bit.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 18:34:39
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Suggestions--Look to LOI and groups of military forces with whom you can team up if you want to make major drives vs. the Empire.
As for Tethyr's motives, they were initially quite ready to sit and wait it out, letting the ogres and forces take it out vs. Amn (as it helped cement Riatavin in their hands and they were still weak from their own Reclamation). The situation might be different now, with either Hhune or Vajra conscripting adventurers to get in there in small ways and disrupt the unity of the monstrous army.
A good spies-eye-view of the situation might be to sneak people into Murann to get a look-see (and perhaps regain some major relic in one of the churches there, in which a resistance movement recruits the adventurers for more actions vs. the monsters).
Other ideas and options--churches on the outside could be recruiting people to go in with scalpel precision to take out the Cyricists within the mix. This could be nearly any church (as most have a grudge vs. the Mad God) or even another sect of Cyricists or Banites looking to bulwark their orthodoxies (and making strange bedfellows while doing so, thinking they can always betray their own allies as well--Josef Stalin would be a perfect model for a Banite High Priest, wouldn't he?).
Last (and easiest to implement) idea: The monsters still have supply lines into and out of the Small Teeth as well as their home grounds and young back there. Why not a surgical strike vs. their homes and such to either claim their treasures or foment dissent by making them hungry, etc. You could also try and get Umar's ghost all riled up, lead her toward the monsters' homes, and let her wreak havoc for you.
Steven
Who left things on this wide open to give GMs as wide a berth as possible, since he'd sewn up the other dissent to the south and rebuilt a feudal society (which also still has lots of things adventurers can do there) |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 21:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Suggestions--Look to LOI and groups of military forces with whom you can team up if you want to make major drives vs. the Empire.
I suppose there is info in LOI that describes who you can team up with if you want to make major drives FOR the empire as well? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 01:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Suggestions--Look to LOI and groups of military forces with whom you can team up if you want to make major drives vs. the Empire.
I suppose there is info in LOI that describes who you can team up with if you want to make major drives FOR the empire as well?
There's some mention of other racial groups that are prepared to support the Sythillisians.
And we know from LoI that some more evil-aligned religious groups are supporting the Empire. Some of which are only helping the Sythillisians because they'll expect the Empire's help with their own problems later -- the most notable of these groups are the Cyricists of the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Oct 2005 01:05:57 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 10:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Suggestions--Look to LOI and groups of military forces with whom you can team up if you want to make major drives vs. the Empire.
I suppose there is info in LOI that describes who you can team up with if you want to make major drives FOR the empire as well?
There's some mention of other racial groups that are prepared to support the Sythillisians.
And we know from LoI that some more evil-aligned religious groups are supporting the Empire. Some of which are only helping the Sythillisians because they'll expect the Empire's help with their own problems later -- the most notable of these groups are the Cyricists of the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse.
Thanks. Precisely what I needed to know. Long live the empire! |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 20:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And we know from LoI that some more evil-aligned religious groups are supporting the Empire. Some of which are only helping the Sythillisians because they'll expect the Empire's help with their own problems later -- the most notable of these groups are the Cyricists of the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse.
See also the Church of Cyric entry in Lords of Darkness. It details to some extent the Twin Towers and the involvement of the church in the affairs. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 06:02:29
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Well, I have decided that the main motivator in the entire game will be Priamon "Frostrune" Raksek. Raksek's goal, and this goal has been the same since the consolidation of the the Sythillissan Empire, is to use the Sythillissan empire to consolidate the surrounding terrain, allow the Rune to get what they want, and acquire the secrets of the Lythari Portals from the Wealdath.
The best moment in the game should be when the PC's finally cross the Small Teeth mountains to warn the Elves of the Wealdath that the Empire is coming, and they stare in shock at the booming of falling trees and the scent of burning wood. :)
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 07:26:49
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I think you should let the Ogre Magi win the day! That would throw most of the PCs for a loop, and then make them the heroes!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 15:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Well, I have decided that the main motivator in the entire game will be Priamon "Frostrune" Raksek. Raksek's goal, and this goal has been the same since the consolidation of the the Sythillissan Empire, is to use the Sythillissan empire to consolidate the surrounding terrain, allow the Rune to get what they want, and acquire the secrets of the Lythari Portals from the Wealdath.
The best moment in the game should be when the PC's finally cross the Small Teeth mountains to warn the Elves of the Wealdath that the Empire is coming, and they stare in shock at the booming of falling trees and the scent of burning wood. :)
The frostrune, eh? Wonder if Halaster is going to mess around with the empire because of that.
Ps. Why does the frostrune want to find lythari portals? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 16:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Ps. Why does the frostrune want to find lythari portals?
I'm wondering this, myself. Most people don't know about the lythari, remember. Even to the elves of the Wealdath, the lythari are elusive and legendary. And their portals just go to their home plane -- so even if the Frostrune did somehow find a lythari, there's very little benefit in gaining access to their portals. (And Amlaruil was going to block the portal that led to Evermeet.)
Further, I would think that it's not so much a traditional kind of portal, like what Halaster builds. I think it's more a racial ability to plane shift to their home plane, more than anything else. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 17:02:39
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After reading Elaine's Silver Shadows, they kind of sounded to me like fey crossroads that only lythari can access, which don't have the traditional guardians. The lythari can cut across the crossroads to get to, say, the Greycloak hills from the Wealdath, but the lythari can also go into the "deep faerie" to borrow a term from the etherial plane, and actually enter Faerie where they have their settlements.
In essense, the lythari act as their own fey guardians on their fey crossroads, but otherwise, they work much the same way, except that they can stay in between in order to enter their own settlements in Faerie.
Hopefully that makes sense to someone other than me . . . |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2005 : 17:26:53
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| I'd agree with the comparisson to the Crossroads. They could even be the same thing exactly, with the Lythari having the equivalent to a CD (Corps Diplomatique) plate for crossing the 'border'. (Those familiar with European borders will now what this 'CD' means in getting across a non-EU border). |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 04:49:32
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Priamon is the Portalmaster for the Rune. That is what he does. It is the entire essence of his nature, to want to control portals he can't normally access. Remember that he's hundreds of years old, knows things that no human wizard who hasn't lived the same amount of time can have access to, plus the ability to subjugate a bunch of these creatures and bend them to his mighty will appeals a lot.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 06:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Priamon is the Portalmaster for the Rune. That is what he does. It is the entire essence of his nature, to want to control portals he can't normally access. Remember that he's hundreds of years old, knows things that no human wizard who hasn't lived the same amount of time can have access to, plus the ability to subjugate a bunch of these creatures and bend them to his mighty will appeals a lot.
But next to no one knows of the lythari. I don't care how old he is, for him to have any knowledge of a race that is legendary to elves is unlikely... It's even more unlikely that he'd know anything of their magic, which has no possible use for him.
As for his age, he's not even 200. He was born in 1189, according to the Stardock module. And there is nothing in his write-up to imply that he would get his jollies by subjugating lythari. He's looking to strengthen the power of the Twisted Rune, and this maneuver does nothing to aid in that cause.
That was the objective behind the kidnapping of Halaster: to learn more about portals so that they could use them to gain power, and to get back at Khelben and the Lords. It has nothing to do with wanting to be some master of portals, or having any driving desire to know all about any kind of portal magic.
In short, what you're suggesting is out of character and rather unlikely to be something he even thinks of.
It may help to go back and read his description again. It's in the Stardock module, which is available for free on the Wizards downloads page.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 07:27:37
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Uh, wanting?
Rupert? Read Lords of Darkness, too. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 07:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Uh, wanting?
Rupert? Read Lords of Darkness, too.
Nothing about wanting to be a master of portals in the 3e one, at least. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 07:39:52
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Also, Rupert, I sat down and actually did the math. He can know about the Lythari on a "1" on a D20. He's a 24th level 3.5 Character with the Lich Template. Assuming an INT of 17 at first level (Better than the Elite Array, I know, but I'm being nice because he's a master villain) that's 6 raises, that's 23. +5 Inherent bonus to INT from Wishes is 28. Headband of Intellect +6 is 34. Lich gives +2 INT, that's 36. That's +13 from INT. A maxed Knowledge Arcana check gives him 27 ranks and a +2 bonus from 5 ranks of Spellcraft. If a DC 43 check on a 1 isn't enough for you when it only takes a 25 Spellcraft DC to teleport around the underdark, it's perfectly understandable, but Lythari don't have that many hit dice. :)
And why is this Knowledge: Arcana and not Knowledge: Nature? Because he needs to know about the portals, and he already (According to Lords of Darkness) has the ability to make them.
Second: Why would he not try this strategy a second time? I can't see how an undead lich would really fear a bunch of elves with bows all that much. Baelnorns, he might fear, but he's obviously not a moron, he successfully kidnapped Halaster. (And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for those lousy adventurers.)
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 07:41:15
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Uh, Arriva, somewhere in the text of one of these books is the statement that "Priamon Raksek is the Portal Master for the Twisted Rune."
It COULD be in LOI. I might be getting old. (36 is old, let's face it) |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 07:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Uh, Arriva, somewhere in the text of one of these books is the statement that "Priamon Raksek is the Portal Master for the Twisted Rune."
It COULD be in LOI. I might be getting old. (36 is old, let's face it)
Oh, yes, that's there-there's just nothing saying he has the ambition to try and exterminate the most elusive elven subrace to gain access to their portals. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 13:30:36
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Hm . . . I don't want to be contentious, but I don't picture lythari portals the same way as wizard portals. That's why earlier I mentioned that they seem more like fey crossroads to me, which are, for lack of a better, more erudite description, druid portals as opposed to wizard portals.
Even if Priamon knows of lythari, and knows they exist, that doesn't mean he knows about their ability to pop in and out of reality in different parts of Faerun. I can see him knowing what is written in their entry in Elves of Evermeet for example, which doesn't mention their portals at all. Knowing elves exist doesn't give you any knowlage of the elfgates that they use to get to the various elven kingdoms and ruins throught Faerun.
I'm not saying its not possible, and it may work great for your campaign. I would just come up with some more justification for how he has found out about them and why they have peaked his interest. But that's just me. |
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Amn and the Sythilissan Empire
