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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  04:42:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  05:28:06  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact, I'd say Larloch comes as close as possible to qualifying for all three categories.

As Wooly notes, controlling 60+ liches would require a rather significant degree of ingenuity. He's probably forgotten more than Elminster will ever know. And his plans for just about everything in the Realms displays near reality-bending levels of cunning.

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  06:54:36  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.



Agreed. Whatever spells he created to be able to completely control through a mind link 60 liches, 3 Demi liches and a host of other undead creatures, as well as being personally powerful enough to make Szass Tam soil his britches in his presence and serve him certainly puts him up there. Heck, Ed has hinted that Larloch has found a level beynd that of a demi lich(which accounts for his ability to dominate them).

The clone spell, while ingenious, is not the best thing ever created. heck, Manshoon loses a ton of exp and levels every time he dies. Aumvor the undying, a lich, created the splintered phylactery spell, which ensures that no matter how many times he is destroyed, unless they find all 200+ pieces of his phylactery, he will rise again quickly without losing any levels. That spell alone is more ingenious than the clone spell.

In the end, the clone spell backfired in a terrible way, causing Manshoon's clones to all rise together and kill each other, losing tons of his caches of items he spent amassing(according to the sourcebooks).

Edited by - Firestorm on 15 Mar 2011 07:03:09
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  08:48:43  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Manshoon is/was just a above mid Level mage, far away from the top liga
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  11:45:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  18:44:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.



He cast spells like a mage, meets the game definitions of a mage, and his creator calls him a mage. How is your definition different?

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  19:58:45  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.



Kind of hard not to consider him ingenious. Only a mastermind could have put together and controlled the Zhentarim so well, and his clone spell is brilliant. But hardly the best spell ever created.

And he is a powerful wizard. But more on the Gromph Baerne/Middling prince of shade level, not the upper tier of Elminster/Telamont Tanthul/Larloch level
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  21:06:14  Show Profile Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.



Agreed. Whatever spells he created to be able to completely control through a mind link 60 liches, 3 Demi liches and a host of other undead creatures, as well as being personally powerful enough to make Szass Tam soil his britches in his presence and serve him certainly puts him up there. Heck, Ed has hinted that Larloch has found a level beynd that of a demi lich(which accounts for his ability to dominate them).

The clone spell, while ingenious, is not the best thing ever created. heck, Manshoon loses a ton of exp and levels every time he dies. Aumvor the undying, a lich, created the splintered phylactery spell, which ensures that no matter how many times he is destroyed, unless they find all 200+ pieces of his phylactery, he will rise again quickly without losing any levels. That spell alone is more ingenious than the clone spell.

In the end, the clone spell backfired in a terrible way, causing Manshoon's clones to all rise together and kill each other, losing tons of his caches of items he spent amassing(according to the sourcebooks).



ok, I have to admit, that's impressive. I conceide.

I realy need to keep reading. I have read only two novels after the WotSQ: Sacrifice of the Widow, and the Gossimer Plane.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2011 :  21:22:50  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Manshoon is the most Ingenious, Elminster is the most Powerfull and Knowledgeable, and Khelben is the Wisest and most Cunning.



I dunno... Larloch controlling 60+ liches is pretty ingenious. And though El knows a lot, I'm not sure he's the most knowledgeable.



Agreed. Whatever spells he created to be able to completely control through a mind link 60 liches, 3 Demi liches and a host of other undead creatures, as well as being personally powerful enough to make Szass Tam soil his britches in his presence and serve him certainly puts him up there. Heck, Ed has hinted that Larloch has found a level beynd that of a demi lich(which accounts for his ability to dominate them).

The clone spell, while ingenious, is not the best thing ever created. heck, Manshoon loses a ton of exp and levels every time he dies. Aumvor the undying, a lich, created the splintered phylactery spell, which ensures that no matter how many times he is destroyed, unless they find all 200+ pieces of his phylactery, he will rise again quickly without losing any levels. That spell alone is more ingenious than the clone spell.

In the end, the clone spell backfired in a terrible way, causing Manshoon's clones to all rise together and kill each other, losing tons of his caches of items he spent amassing(according to the sourcebooks).



ok, I have to admit, that's impressive. I conceide.

I realy need to keep reading. I have read only two novels after the WotSQ: Sacrifice of the Widow, and the Gossimer Plane.


Heh. Some of these characters never, or rarely make it into the novels. The sourcebooks have tons of information on them though.

Aumvor is a character I want to see make some cursory appearances given that his goal was to revive Nethril, and the Princes of Shade hold similar goals.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  02:18:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Nah. He doesn't even belong to my definition of a mage, let alone ingenious.



He cast spells like a mage, meets the game definitions of a mage, and his creator calls him a mage. How is your definition different?



It's in my file labeled For My Eyes Only.

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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  14:22:03  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't mean to sound like a total noob, but where are you guys getting all of this info on Larloch? I am just getting back into reading realms books so i am very rusty. This guy sounds like someone i would love to read about. Thanks!

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  23:00:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Mostly from what Ed said. Larloch very rarely appears in FR fiction.

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jordanz
Senior Scribe

553 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  15:44:05  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I've read it seems like there is not much that distinguishes Larloch from a Demi God in terms of raw power....
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  17:34:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

From what I've read it seems like there is not much that distinguishes Larloch from a Demi God in terms of raw power....



Personally, I think he's the equal of any demigod -- maybe even some lesser powers -- except for the lack of divinity.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  05:06:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

And if he wants to, he could ascend without difficulty.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  07:10:25  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


And if he wants to, he could ascend without difficulty.

Actually, I think Wooly hits on an important consideration when it comes to fathoming Larloch's power.

If we assume his power allows him to, essentially, sit as an equal of a demigod [minus the divine spark], then perhaps any pursuit of divinity is irrelevant to him.

Larloch certainly follows his own path. And I would expect that if he's achieved power that rivals that of any demigod, then he's largely free to determine his own course about where to go next.

For all we know, Larloch's great plans revolve around some secretive scheme that effectively ensures his place and power without him factoring in any need to obtain apotheosis on behalf of some other deity.

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Edited by - The Sage on 04 Sep 2011 07:25:28
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  07:23:23  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'm not fond of gods, myself. So I say I am glad Larloch chose to stay what he is despite his obvious ability to attain godhood. [And when it comes down to it, it would sound more impressive to read: "A lich slaps a god," than "A god slaps a lich."]

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Salacar
Acolyte

Denmark
33 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2011 :  23:54:49  Show Profile Send Salacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Certainly the Srinshee must be an extremely powerful spellcaster, maybe the most powerful one, but this all relies on the rumors, speculations and Ed's own hinting about her being true.
If we simply look at an individual based on their potential, instead of proven power, then there's another spellcaster who must be considered.
I speak of course of the Terraseer.
He is without a doubt, if not THE oldest, then one of the oldest beings on Faerun, and as a Sarrukh he would have had access to ancient arcane knowledge that the Netherese could only dream of. Plus if we look at it entirely rulebook based, remember that a single level in a character class puts a Sarrukh straight into epic level, and who knows how many levels he could have gained by simply using his time wisely between hibernations for 26,000 bloody years?
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:20:53  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Certainly the Srinshee is a very powerful sorceress but no one can compare to the Old Mage of Shadowdale , even in his current somewhat precarious state.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:50:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

It's been more than six years since this thread was created, and there have been a lot of changes to the status of the spellcasters listed as options in the poll. Szass Tam has grown considerably more powerful and ambitious, so has Telamont. I wonder, though, why Vhostym wasn't included. Is being a native of Abeir-Toril one of the criteria?

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:59:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

I think Szass Tam is someone to look out for. Anyone who read the last novel of the Undead trilogy might speculate how invincible Tam really is. The minute Larloch slips up, I expect Tam to be right there to take his place. Lets not forget how close Szass Tam came to achieving total power and domination...

One wonders why, instead of casting the Ritual of Unmaking, he didn't just try to replicate Karsus's Avatar and steal a deity's divinity---Ao, if it's even possible.

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Azuth
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USA
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Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  17:35:50  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[quote]One wonders why, instead of casting the Ritual of Unmaking, he didn't just try to replicate Karsus's Avatar and steal a deity's divinity---Ao, if it's even possible.



I suspect it's because Ao is not a divine power, and he is utterly "inaccessible" to mortals. Even the deities have to request his presence. That's just my suspicion of course.

Azuth


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The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2012 :  08:33:32  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[quote]One wonders why, instead of casting the Ritual of Unmaking, he didn't just try to replicate Karsus's Avatar and steal a deity's divinity---Ao, if it's even possible.



I suspect it's because Ao is not a divine power, and he is utterly "inaccessible" to mortals. Even the deities have to request his presence. That's just my suspicion of course.

Azuth



Oh, well, he may do it one step at a time. Steal a greater deity's divinity (3 or more deities, if he can). As a greater god, he would have to interact with Ao once in a while. Whatever he learns out of those brief "meetings" he can use to modify the Karsus's Avatar-like spell to make it effective against an overgod.

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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
67 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2012 :  17:24:29  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello!

I may be wrong, but usually never see any Sarrukh listed as "one of the most powerful spellcasters." Except Terraseer.

From what I know, the sarrukh are even older than Srinshee, for example. I believe they have more than 35,000 years of existence.

I think I still have not seen the stats of sarrukh represent well all this knowledge. Terraseer himself has only 35 levels ... but for his age because he would not have more than 40 levels?

Thanks!
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3738 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2012 :  20:07:45  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

I think I still have not seen the stats of sarrukh represent well all this knowledge. Terraseer himself has only 35 levels ... but for his age because he would not have more than 40 levels?

-It usually does, but age doesn't have to line up with level. Just because someone/something is five thousand years old (picking a random age) means that it's super powerful. If something has just been sitting around for that amount of time and not really doing all that much, there's no reason it'd be growing all that much more powerful (levels) during that time. With the Sarrukh, that is partially in play, since most of the living ones have been in different stages of hibernation for thousands of years.

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Light
Learned Scribe

Australia
231 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2012 :  07:42:26  Show Profile Send Light a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

I think I still have not seen the stats of sarrukh represent well all this knowledge. Terraseer himself has only 35 levels ... but for his age because he would not have more than 40 levels?

-It usually does, but age doesn't have to line up with level. Just because someone/something is five thousand years old (picking a random age) means that it's super powerful. If something has just been sitting around for that amount of time and not really doing all that much, there's no reason it'd be growing all that much more powerful (levels) during that time. With the Sarrukh, that is partially in play, since most of the living ones have been in different stages of hibernation for thousands of years.

I agree with rodrigoalcanza, one would think that each of these liches would be (since they are most likely over 35,000 years old which IIRC is when their empire fell) over level 40 or at least over level 30. However, the 60 lich-kings of Oreme rotate the leadership role every 4 years while the other 59 hybernate. So the way I see it is that over the past 35,000 years each Sarrukh has only been awake for almost 600 years (35,000 / 60). Add to that whenever they were born and you have their "true" ages.

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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
67 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  04:05:20  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I sometimes wonder, for example, that Khelben was 27 levels and Szass Tam had 29 levels (before 4th edition). But Khelben was much older than Szass Tam, Chosen of Mystra and other qualities, because then he would have less levels?

I could also compare well with Elminster.

I remember that someone has told me about it, saying, for example, these characters have a long history and may have suffered a loss levels at some point in their lives, for different reasons.

I also think that among these wizards could be the case Khelben known more spells that Tam. And spells more powerful! So Khelben has fewer levels but would be more powerful.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  14:39:25  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another thing to consider is that it just seems absolutely ridiculous (to me at least) to stat out NPC's at level 50, 60, 70, etc. Besides, being a higher level does not mean you are "more powerful" than a wizard of a lower level.

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Sightless
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USA
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Posted - 14 May 2012 :  15:24:37  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the issue is,

What is being used to describe power? What is the bases for comparison?

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2012 :  22:09:21  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

I sometimes wonder, for example, that Khelben was 27 levels and Szass Tam had 29 levels (before 4th edition). But Khelben was much older than Szass Tam, Chosen of Mystra and other qualities, because then he would have less levels?

I could also compare well with Elminster.

I remember that someone has told me about it, saying, for example, these characters have a long history and may have suffered a loss levels at some point in their lives, for different reasons.

I also think that among these wizards could be the case Khelben known more spells that Tam. And spells more powerful! So Khelben has fewer levels but would be more powerful.



BlackStaff was level 31
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