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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 05:36:17
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For my current campaign, I'm thinking about this :
A non-lawfull good organization (Red sashes) would cooperate with one of the [evil] PC (suspected shadow thief member) to get some critical info about a common ennemy (high-ranking member of the Xanathar for example)...
Do you see any problem here ?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 06:05:14
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Well only posible prblem might be objections to evil acts. However if LE there should be very workable. As the evil would adhere to bargin made for joint effort. Of course the good would have to define what would be aceptible in journey together.
I have seen others that for the greater good even allow a Paladin to travel for some time with evils. In a great part it depends on the ground rules of what can be aceptable and has been. Of course the evil could pretend to be good in order to achieve goals with the help of the good PCs. This of course works well until a detect Evil is cast (or some other event, ward for example, indicates alignment). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 11:07:27
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Heck, if two evil organizations (Hillsfar and Zhentil Keep) can work together, I'm sure your two organizations could manage. I think it does all depend on the evil characters alignment - if chaotic, no deal would be held; lawful - would adhere to his standards; neutral - would look to make the deal sweeter to him. But of course they would work together. Most evil entities are comprised of many evil people working together to pull the strings.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 18:04:47
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Of course evil orginisations should work together...as long as there is gain in it for them. It doesn't mean that there won't be some infighting, but in general they will work together, while working to subvert eachother.
Sort of like the camradrie on the playing field. You like your fellows, but you hate the other team. So you try to get the good ones to join your team... |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 19:19:23
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Is Hillsfar really evil, though? Strictly speaking, it's ruler is Neutral, it's just that his ideas are far from being politically correct.
I'd have to agree that generally, it depends on what the people in charge want to do. I am reminded of an Elminster quote from The Stories of Ed Greenwood--"Even evil people can be useful". Just because a character is "good" doesn't mean they wouldn't work with an evil person now and then. Heck, there is no rule saying they can't even be friends with each other. Be careful with paladins, though, because they generally are not supposed to willingly consort with evil beings. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 20:32:09
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In my example, it's a neutral/chaotic good "secret" organisation that was created to do the jobs that the Paladins & Lords can't do.
But I far they could go... if my evil PC offer them to hunt down the evil wizard of the evil organisation, how they would react ?
Could they even ask it? For a CG character, hunting down a LE high ranking officier of a evil organisation is certainly not a problem, but using an other member of an opposed organisation to hunt him down in is place ?
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 20:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Is Hillsfar really evil, though? Strictly speaking, it's ruler is Neutral, it's just that his ideas are far from being politically correct.
I'd have to agree that generally, it depends on what the people in charge want to do. I am reminded of an Elminster quote from The Stories of Ed Greenwood--"Even evil people can be useful". Just because a character is "good" doesn't mean they wouldn't work with an evil person now and then. Heck, there is no rule saying they can't even be friends with each other. Be careful with paladins, though, because they generally are not supposed to willingly consort with evil beings.
Why does Maalthir hate elves so much? Has he got any particular reason or is it just a case of typical stupid racism? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 21:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
But I far they could go... if my evil PC offer them to hunt down the evil wizard of the evil organisation, how they would react ?
They might well accept the offer, I don't know. Then again, how is your PC going to find and contact them? The Red Sashes *are* a secret organization, after all. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 21:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Why does Maalthir hate elves so much? Has he got any particular reason or is it just a case of typical stupid racism?
Honestly, I don't know. It may just be bigotry, but there is usually a reason for it. Maalthiir is a nasty guy and I believe what he has done to non-humans is bad, but suprisingly, he's not evil, he is actually Neutral--just neutral.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 01:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
They might well accept the offer, I don't know. Then again, how is your PC going to find and contact them? The Red Sashes *are* a secret organization, after all.
They met the twins escort of the Purple Palace in the first few sessions of the campaign. Eventually, they learned that they were part of a good&secret organisation, and lastly they heard about the red sasches and established the missing links 
One of the twin (Aletha) suspect that one of the PC was probably recruited into the Shadow thieves by her fault (She tried to use him to find info about the guild) but in fact, he was already "interested".
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 04:50:29
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| Hmmm, I don't see why you couldn't work something out, if your PC already has a history, of sorts, with the Red Sashes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 12:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Why does Maalthir hate elves so much? Has he got any particular reason or is it just a case of typical stupid racism?
Honestly, I don't know. It may just be bigotry, but there is usually a reason for it. Maalthiir is a nasty guy and I believe what he has done to non-humans is bad, but suprisingly, he's not evil, he is actually Neutral--just neutral.
He`s a racist but he isn`t evil? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 18:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
He`s a racist but he isn`t evil?
You don't have to be evil to hate or discriminate against someone, even unreasonably. In real-world history, there are plenty of examples of people maintaining racist attitudes but otherwise being good. It was simply because of their culture and upbringing, not because of their personal morals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 19:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
He`s a racist but he isn`t evil?
You don't have to be evil to hate or discriminate against someone, even unreasonably. In real-world history, there are plenty of examples of people maintaining racist attitudes but otherwise being good. It was simply because of their culture and upbringing, not because of their personal morals.
That's basically what I was thinking. I do agree that Maalthiir has done a share of bad things, but again, whomever it was that designed the character didn't actually make him evil. He is a tyrant, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did in fact care about his city and most of the people who live there.
I should point out also that this is my opinion, and I don't consider myself an expert on Maalthiir or the Moonsea area. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 20:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
He`s a racist but he isn`t evil?
You don't have to be evil to hate or discriminate against someone, even unreasonably. In real-world history, there are plenty of examples of people maintaining racist attitudes but otherwise being good. It was simply because of their culture and upbringing, not because of their personal morals.
That actually sounds like an excuse to commit evil acts. Are you telling me that some Nazi's were great people, just forced to do bad things because they were taught that way? Racism is ignorance - and ignorance breeds contempt, which can lead to evil.
And make note, I mention the Nazis not the Germans. Racism - the thought pattern - is just a pathway to evil.
Ok, I'm getting off of my soapbox now... and I agree to disagree with everyone.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 20:53:25
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This discussion is going in a direction I'd best not pursue...and I don't think anyone is trying to say that the Nazis were "great people".
But suffice it to say, Maalthiir is neutral, not evil, and as far as I can tell he has always been N. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Oct 2005 20:56:02 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 20:57:44
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All I was saying was racism shouldn't be looked at as a neutral action. I know no one was comparing any one in the Realms to Nazis, that's why I put this disclaimer.
Didn't want anyone to get angry...
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 22:39:26
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That was not a valid comparison. You are comparing inherently evil acts to being shortsighted and unwilling to see a person's worth. Racism can be as simple as discrimination and prejudice, and in a lot of places in the world, that's all it is.
I'm not defending it, or saying it's alright. It isn't. What I am saying is that if a person is brought up to believe -- or has some other reason for believing -- that someone is less than them, it doesn't make them an evil person. Shortsighted, yes. Evil, no.
To keep this grounded in the Realms, look at goblins. Just about every good or neutral race regards goblins as a brutish, evil, and uncivilized race. Goblins are capable of being more, but that's how everyone sees them. Regardless of whether or not this view is warranted, it's a form of racism: goblins are looked down on, simply because they are goblins. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 02:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
All I was saying was racism shouldn't be looked at as a neutral action. I know no one was comparing any one in the Realms to Nazis, that's why I put this disclaimer.
Didn't want anyone to get angry...
C-Fb
I know, but be careful about making comparisons to Nazis--it's a touchy subject that can get out of hand. Remember Godwin's Law...
"Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 06:07:23
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Okay... I see your points and I concede. It is a valid point, but in the objective world of D&D, it doesn't apply.
Sorry for my soapbox rant. I just can't stand racism as I have seen quite a bit of it in my time.
Forgive me, fellow sages... no more comparisons to true evil on this board.
C-Fb
P.s. - Goblins aren't evil anyway, they are misunderstood. |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Good/Evil organization cooperation
