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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 02:07:32
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The last installment of Eric Boyd's Vampires of Waterdeep trilogy of adventures is in this issue. This installment is a pretty good ending, and some of the hooks mentioned are a good idea for the entire story arc. I would definately recommend reading the whole set before decided how you want to run this adventure.
For anyone that wonders how defeating evil might be worse in the long run, or how someone evil could cause some good to occur in order to advance their own adgenda, this is the adventure to check out. Truly a good plan by a Master Vampire.
But on top of all of this, we also find out in issue 128 that next issue will have yet another FR adventure in it, this one by Wil Upchurch entititled The Twisted Run, set in the Silver Marches and designed for 17th level characters.
Oh, and finally in this issue . . . 3.5 stats for the Froghemoth!
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 06 Oct 2005 02:08:23
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 14:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The last installment of Eric Boyd's Vampires of Waterdeep trilogy of adventures is in this issue. This installment is a pretty good ending, and some of the hooks mentioned are a good idea for the entire story arc. I would definately recommend reading the whole set before decided how you want to run this adventure.
Glad you liked it and thanks for the feedback.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 03:40:45
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| Eric can you explain the Ad-hoc experience award part from room G5 to me? I don't really understand why Arrick and Medechai are part of the threat from Artor, and hense why they're not worth XP. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 17:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
Eric can you explain the Ad-hoc experience award part from room G5 to me? I don't really understand why Arrick and Medechai are part of the threat from Artor, and hense why they're not worth XP.
Artor is theoretically a CR 21 monster. Part of that CR is the ability to create spawn and employ them as tactical weapons against the PCs. If you view Artor plus his spawn as the collective threat to be opposed, then defeating all of them is like defeating a CR 21 monster.
If however, Artor is too powerful (he's quite a threat for a party of 14th level characters), then you can interpret the threat this way: destroy the lesser vampires and drive off Artor. (Artor has been laying his plans for a century ... if you effectively deprive him of his lair, then you've undone a century's worth of plotting.) In that case, the CR for the individual servitor vampires is appropriate for each. You won't actually defeat Artor, but you do get a story award for driving him off.
Does that help?
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 17:37:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Artor is theoretically a CR 21 monster. Part of that CR is the ability to create spawn and employ them as tactical weapons against the PCs. If you view Artor plus his spawn as the collective threat to be opposed, then defeating all of them is like defeating a CR 21 monster.
If however, Artor is too powerful (he's quite a threat for a party of 14th level characters), then you can interpret the threat this way: destroy the lesser vampires and drive off Artor. (Artor has been laying his plans for a century ... if you effectively deprive him of his lair, then you've undone a century's worth of plotting.) In that case, the CR for the individual servitor vampires is appropriate for each. You won't actually defeat Artor, but you do get a story award for driving him off.
Does that help?
--Eric
OK,
So if you kill everything you get one CR 21 reward. If you kill all the servitors and drive off Artor, you get the reward for all the servitors plus the 7500 story reward.
I guess that makes sense. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2005 : 01:01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, I need to call my local store to see if they got this issue in yet. But I'm thinking only those with subscriptions have recd it so far. I really need to subscribe to both Dragon and Dungeon again...
Nope. I picked up Dungeon 128 the other day at Barnes & Noble. Oddly, though, my FLGS didn't have it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Oct 2005 01:02:13 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 07:35:48
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Uhh, guys? Artor is WEAK for a CR 21 monster. Once you reach epic, you can do truly hellacious things.
I actually wrote Dungeon and said "This is hardly the bada** I expected. This guy should be WAY tougher than he is." A Vampire who's been in a lair for 100 years or more should have access to, literally "Any magic item he darned well wants." and have better stats than what he's got. When you can dominate people to give you inherent bonuses of +5 to every single stat, it SHOULD happen. He should have better stats than he's got, too. I'm positive that they put all of his raises into Charisma, too. Wasn't this guy a FIGHTER?
I was VERY disappointed with the Morlin writeup. He should have been the closest thing to a GOD that CR 14 characters should face. And if the PC's live, they should never WANT to face anything like him again. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 11:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
A Vampire who's been in a lair for 100 years or more should have access to, literally "Any magic item he darned well wants."
I disagree. Just because someone has been around for a while, it doesn't mean they're going to be a walking arsenal of magical goodies. Simply being in one place for a while doesn't mean that everything is going to be available to you. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2005 : 15:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Uhh, guys? Artor is WEAK for a CR 21 monster. Once you reach epic, you can do truly hellacious things.
I actually wrote Dungeon and said "This is hardly the bada** I expected. This guy should be WAY tougher than he is." A Vampire who's been in a lair for 100 years or more should have access to, literally "Any magic item he darned well wants." and have better stats than what he's got. When you can dominate people to give you inherent bonuses of +5 to every single stat, it SHOULD happen. He should have better stats than he's got, too. I'm positive that they put all of his raises into Charisma, too. Wasn't this guy a FIGHTER?
I was VERY disappointed with the Morlin writeup. He should have been the closest thing to a GOD that CR 14 characters should face. And if the PC's live, they should never WANT to face anything like him again.
While you are welcome to beef up Morlin in your campaign, for Dungeon he is supposed to be "CR appropriate". Mechanically, he works out to being a CR 21 monster, but I think CR 18 might be more appropriate. Likewise, for treasure and stats, he is balanced mechanically with what is appropriate for a CR 21 monster.
There's a general philosophical problem with "uber-bad-guys" being limited in terms of their treasure and magic. Why don't they have everything under the sun? In general, 3e has either said "they don't" or "well, it's not available in the current scenario (by hook or by crook".
Finally, IMO he is a fighter with a great strength, but his charisma is actually more important to his success and station. Ultimately, the campaign arc is about disrupting a very efficient predator who has created a situation in which he can thrive unmolested and unrestricted. The real goal is disrupt the status quo, flushing out a great evil that preys on Waterdeep's populace.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 00:58:26
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Eric which God is Artor Morlin patron deity?
As hes got levels of Blackguard and that PrC is a Divine spellcaster he has to have a Divine Patron to gain spells..... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 03:53:00
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Well, let's have a look at this philosophically. Morlin is a "legendary" opponent. He should be a legendary opponent. They could have done dozens of things to accomplish this. Fighter 12/Blackguard 4/Master Vampire 3 would have been just as effective and ten times more dangerous.
Putting his raises into STR and giving him a Cloak of Charisma +6 would have been more effective. There were a DOZEN things that would have made this guy more dangerous without doing very much.
The problem here is that it assumes a lack of intelligence on the part of the bad guy. Why WOULDN'T he dominate low level wizards to beef him up with magic items and pay a better price for them? Why Wouldn't he spend money on items that would increase his combat effectiveness?
The answer to this is "Your PC's do, so there's no reason NOT to." I am very tired of 3.5 assuming that NPC's are either A) Dumb, B) not as capable of the PC's in terms of the resources they acquire, or C) Adventuring the way PC's do. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 07:09:52
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I'm not sure you understood Eric's reply, so we'll go through it slowly. He wrote up Artor Morlin to reflect the level of the adventure that people were paying $$ for in Dungeon Magazine. If we "beef up" Artor to reflect the fact that he's an uber-NPC, then we have an adventure that is unbalanced and an opponent that is going to wipe the floor with your PC party - much to their indignation. It is EASY to add magic items, levels and benefits to a monster, NPC or adversary. It is MUCH harder to strip away such frippery if said monster, NPC, adversary is too powerful for your game or players. And BTW, Artor Morlin is Eric's creation (and to a much lesser extent mine too) - he got him exactly right and as he should be. If you make up your own legendary vampire lord, you can write-up him/her in the "right" way and no-one will tell you different. Well, except for the people who think you got him/her "wrong".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 11:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
The problem here is that it assumes a lack of intelligence on the part of the bad guy. Why WOULDN'T he dominate low level wizards to beef him up with magic items and pay a better price for them? Why Wouldn't he spend money on items that would increase his combat effectiveness?
Just because an option is available to an NPC, it doesn't mean it has to be exercised... There's plenty of reasons someone wouldn't do what you suggest, not the least of which is secrecy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 14:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
The answer to this is "Your PC's do, so there's no reason NOT to." I am very tired of 3.5 assuming that NPC's are either A) Dumb, B) not as capable of the PC's in terms of the resources they acquire, or C) Adventuring the way PC's do.
Whether or not this is a good role-playing rule, it is a game balance rule and Paizo prints modules that endeavor to follow the rules as written. If you look in the DMG, the table for "GP value of stuff/Treasure" for NPCs/Monsters is lower at ever level than the comparable amount of stuff for PCs.
Artor is built with an elite array, a set of classes, and has the maximum amount of "stuff". His CR is calculated according to the formula in the Rules as Written. He is using his dominate ability to maintain his position in House Gost and Waterdhavian society. He is also maxing out his number of servitor vampires (although one is offstage). One of his servitor vampires even has servitor vampires of its own.
I share your frustration that sometimes its hard to explain why an NPC has a limited amount of stuff, but I believe the solution is to come up with an in-game explanation, not just add more stuff. Otherwise, every great wyrm dragon hoard is going to be worth a billion gp and have 1,000 magic items, which is a campaign buster. In Artor's case, the explanation is that he's always had to maintain a low profile in Waterdeep. If he dominated hundreds of mages and set up a magic item factory, Khelben, the Guild, and 1,000 adventuring bands would be after him in a heartbeat. Artor is very aware how precarious his place in Waterdeep truly is. Witness how carefully he's moved to reclaim his old lair, despite the lack of a credible threat to keep him from just seizing it.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 14:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Eric which God is Artor Morlin patron deity?
As hes got levels of Blackguard and that PrC is a Divine spellcaster he has to have a Divine Patron to gain spells.....
Good question. I'd probably say Talos, worshiped under the Calishite name "Bhaelros", although Tempus would be a reasonable candidate as well. Despite his blackguard status, I'd say Artor is not particularly religious.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 15:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Eric which God is Artor Morlin patron deity?
As hes got levels of Blackguard and that PrC is a Divine spellcaster he has to have a Divine Patron to gain spells.....
Good question. I'd probably say Talos, worshiped under the Calishite name "Bhaelros", although Tempus would be a reasonable candidate as well. Despite his blackguard status, I'd say Artor is not particularly religious.
--Eric
The one step rule prevents it from being Tempus (CN) or Talos (CE), with the exception of Paladins of Sune all divine spellcasters must be within 1 step of their deities alignment. Artors LE so he must have made a deal with a LE, LN or NE evil deity to become a Blackguard
Azuth(LN): He doesnt have any Arcane spell casting
Bane: Artor doesnt seem to want to Lord it over the people of Waterdeep as there Tyrant or spread hatred so I doubt hes made a deal with Bane
Helm: In a perverted sense I guess Artor is Waterdeep guardian against Vampires but I dont think Helm would create blackguards
Mask: Nothing "Thievy" about Artor
Shar: Maybe, there is after all a strong Sharran presence in undermoutain but I would have thought they'd have dragged Artor into
Shars clergy if it was her
Auril: Nothing aboout Artor screams cold or Winter other than the fact hes undead
Gargauth(LE): Depending on Artors history he may have been corrupted by Gargauth could make sense if Artor was orginally a Paladin (he replaced all his Paladin levels with Blackguard levels when he fell)
Hoar: Artor seems to have a beef with the Shoon empire maybe the Shoon Empire wronged him some way and Hoar offered to help him see Vengence on them by turning him into a Blackguard or Vampire.......
Jergal: Artors Undead status doesnt really play to Jergals portfolios
Loviatar: Nothing about Artor seems to suggest he gets enjoyment from inflicting pain
Red Knight: Plays to Artors Warrior history but Im not sure that the Red knight would create Blackguards or do deals with Vampires
Tiamat: Nothing about Artor suggest ties to Dragons or Unther
Mykrul: My favoured choice it plays up to Artors Vampire status and could also provide a link to the Eye of Mykrul which is not far away
Bhaal: Artor seems to be more of a Warrior than an Assassin
In order of Preference Id go with
Mykrul
Hoar
Gargauth |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 16:07:04
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| Don't forget though, in light of what Eric said about Artor, its entirely possible we have the "Ed Divine Rule" going on here. Normally people have to be within one step of their god to gain divine powers, and there is no "cause" worshipping going on in the Realms, but that doesn't rule out that Artor may have a divine patron that grants him blackguard status without him fully understanding why or that they do so . . . heck, an ancient vampire with a convoluted plan to keep vampires not under his watch from entering Waterdeep, who knows what god might decided to aid someone with that goal . . . |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2005 : 23:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The one step rule prevents it from being Tempus (CN) or Talos (CE), with the exception of Paladins of Sune all divine spellcasters must be within 1 step of their deities alignment. Artors LE so he must have made a deal with a LE, LN or NE evil deity to become a Blackguard
Hoar: Artor seems to have a beef with the Shoon empire maybe the Shoon Empire wronged him some way and Hoar offered to help him see Vengence on them by turning him into a Blackguard or Vampire.......
Good point again! I like Hoar best, Myrkul second.
He was never a paladin.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 01:40:47
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Are we going to see anything more on Artor's background in the future?
Its been strongly hinted that theres something coming up for Amn, perhaps a 3ed version of Lands of Intrigue.......... Might Artor pop up in the sections covering the Shoon Empire......... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 03:13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Are we going to see anything more on Artor's background in the future?
Its been strongly hinted that theres something coming up for Amn, perhaps a 3ed version of Lands of Intrigue.......... Might Artor pop up in the sections covering the Shoon Empire.........
Nothing planned for Artor as of yet. If I did follow up, I'd be tempted to reveal the long-sealed dungeons of Morlin Castle which now lie beneath the town of Daggerford.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2005 : 22:06:10
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Well, the problem with the idea that you can't have secrecy with a dominate DC of 25 or 24 as opposed to 27 is a hole in the system.
Second, you don't have to do it to EVERY guy. You just have to do it to ENOUGH people every so often that it goes undetected. Unless you use training rules (And I do for this very reason) this guy is going to be level 20 in 2.5 game years.
As far as I'm concerned, that's WAY too soon. When I run a game, it takes a LONG time to reach levels like that. There are other PC's in the game, and they've been around longer, and they certainly don't deserve to be upstarted by some guy who ran around with the benefits of 13 equal level encounters draining 25 percent of your resources and got his levels the cheap way.
My problem is, that the first thing I do when I look at a bad guy is I look at his intelligence score. Let's take Artor Morlin as an example. He's pretty smart. He wants to remain undetected. Let's use the secrecy example for a minute, Rupert.
I want secrecy. So I secretly hire a bunch of adventurers to get X, Y, and Z magic items for me. I use proxies the whole way through. Some are dominated, some aren't. In fact, I create my own go-between between dominated guy A and dominated guy B who ISN'T dominated just so people don't spot him.
I fully realize that running around in a city with Khelben Arunsun in it is hardly a cakewalk. But then, Khelben isn't walking the streets and checking for who's dominating whom either. Yeah, he needs to be secret, and he has to avoid competent people and powerful adventurers.
But if that's the case, just get your Greenstone Amulet or have a circlet of Mind Blank crafted and you're done. It's a use activated magic item, but you only need one use/day, it lasts 24 hours.
This is the problem that I see with some fo this stuff in general. The strictly regulated treasure/etc rules really punish high INT npcs.
And if you think it's bad for the NPCs, wait until you see what the PC's do to get around the treasure values per encounter. I don't stop them from doing this...IF IT'S IC, but..
One of the biggest flaws in the game is the Leadership feat. I take the Leadership Feat. My cohort is a cleric, a wizard, or a druid. It doesn't matter what class I am. The cohort's purpose is to be an item crafter. Now, if I'm a shmuck, I'll never let the cohort make anything for anyone other than me. But, if I'm good to my cohort, and really roleplay this person as my boon companion, it works to my advantage to buy the cohort magic items, have the cohort craft items for themselves, etc...
Magic items mean way too much in this edition of the game, which is, perhaps, the entire real point of this discussion, and the reason why Artor Morlin can't be as fearsome as I would like him to be.
Now, to talk about campaign busters for a moment. Despite ALL the voodoo math, my game has run for eighteen+ years through three editions of the game, and it still works. I tax my player characters, They make sure they're devout if they have patron deities, they give a lot of this money to their churches, they pay maintainence and upkeep costs on their demenses, dwellings, and pay salaries out to their followers.
One of my PC's spent hundreds of thousands of gold pieces on a temple he didn't even belong to, for the specific purpose of just making the diety happy.
It's unbelievably hard in this game not to find something to do with your money. I just find "Main Line Leader Type NPC's" to be not tough enough.
Minions are minions, but the big bad guy should be really BAD. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 04:03:24
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| Okay, I've done some cleaning on this thread... Let's keep things civil, folks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 06:06:55
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Hey, where'd my post go - I was super civil! Although that FURRY Staff of the Irritated Moderator is pretty dang good - doesn't leave any telltale signs of "intervention".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2005 : 14:20:55
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Wooly, that's awesome - not a trace of what was, but now there can only be a what is! Huzzah!
C-Fb
P.s. - Dang, I knew I should have gotten a subscription to Dungeon last May.. figures. |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2005 : 23:35:31
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In my response to a letter to the editor (both letter and response are printed in Dungeon #131), I managed to sneak in a bit more Realmslore that was cut for space reasons from "The Fireplace Level." Specifically, I reveal the identity of the lich from whose phylactery the grisgol was made.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2005 : 13:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Hey, where'd my post go - I was super civil! Although that FURRY Staff of the Irritated Moderator is pretty dang good - doesn't leave any telltale signs of "intervention".
-- George Krashos
And now we know what it feels like to be within a comic book retcon like CRISIS. 
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Dungeon #128: The Fireplace Level (Spoilers)
