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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 17:30:10
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Poll Question:
Owing to the success of the War of the Spider Queen series and the edgier direction Realms fiction is heading (with RAS's AE / J[spoiler] and Kemp's Cale / Riven / crew), one could speculate on a series devoted to villains -- either a 4-booker, like the class and places series, or an open ended series like the Harpers.
I attached a small survey (everyone loves surveys!) to vote on the organization, so we can see where the heaviest leanings are. Who knows? It could be a series called "The Zhents" or "The Enclaves" or something of that nature.
In your actual post, note which particular villain (if anyone in particular) you'd like to see a novel focusing upon and some reason it would be the greatest ever, that sort of thing. 
DON'T read anything into this: There is not, to my knowledge, a series in the works at WotC devoted to villains, either already in the Realms or in the planning stages. I'm not a spy sent to sniff for ideas -- this is just a series concept I think would be cool, and wanted to see what my fellow sages and readers thought.
Related to this topic, I believe both DL and the more standard D&D novel lines have had a "villain" series or at least villain-focused books. Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Lord Toede, and The Dark Queen spring to mind.
Have at it!
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 17:44:21
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I wouldn't mind reading a novel about the Eldreth Veluuthra. And just what is the Twisted Rune doing, particularly with the portal knowledge they stole from Halaster?
I also wouldn't mind seeing the Zhents actually doing something effective, as opposed to how they were portrayed for an awfully long time.
But I still like the idea I presented elsewhere: a series of novels, each focusing on a different Manshoon clone -- ones other than the official three, of course.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Aug 2005 17:45:41 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 17:52:35
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Well met
My word, a very difficult choice indeed. Like Wooly, I would very much like to see a novel on the Eldreth Veluuthra, as they have intrigued me greatly since coverage in the recent Champions of Ruin.
However, I voted for the Zhentarim. Based on the fact that they have been the longest standing villain interest of mine, and that I believe they deserve a good dedicated coverage and some worthy success stories.
In addition, i'd also like to see the Shade situation picked up, once again. I felt it hanging too much with the ending of The Return of the Archwizards Trilogy. However, I was happy to hear of Cormyr involvement with the Shade situation recently in Farthest Reach, albeit a mere passing mention.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 18:11:58
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In fiction, villains are not protagonists, they're obstacles that the hero overcomes as part of the hero's journey. A villainous protagonist is a contradiction in terms; personally I don't want to read about an antiheroic protagonist in the Realms either and I find the whole 'sympathetic villainy', 'monsters are people too' thing a silly, voguish, implausible drag. You're asking the reader to empathize with a protagonist who carries out acts of cruelty and evil -- and succeeds thus and gain's the hero's reward, so validating wickedness and trivializing suffering -- and I can't imagine who would want to do so over the length of a novel. I think 'cool' and 'edgy' pseudo-heroes are the last thing modern sword and sorcery needs. If the villains aren't to be protagonists, then a Villains series is just a marketing gimmick.
Sorry Erik, but I feel quite strongly about this.
It would be bass-ackwards to have a Villains series before an Adventurers series, in any case. |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Aug 2005 18:24:09 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 18:24:20
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| I wouldn't mind to read about a series about the Red Wizards of Thay, or at least one about Thay. It seems to me that Red Wizards in FR novels don't have very long lives, as all they seem to be are fodder for Elminster and the Seven Sisters... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 18:34:35
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Call me biased, but I'd love to do any number of books linked to the Twisted Rune or the Shadow Thieves, as I had a hand in fleshing out their structures and details.
Steven
Who won't mention the other villainous groups planned/discussed among mugs with Ed that never made it to the page.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 18:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In fiction, villains are not protagonists, they're obstacles that the hero overcomes as part of the hero's journey. A villainous protagonist is a contradiction in terms; personally I don't want to read about an antiheroic protagonist in the Realms either and I find the whole 'sympathetic villainy', 'monsters are people too' thing a silly, voguish, implausible drag. You're asking the reader to empathize with a protagonist who carries out acts of cruelty and evil -- and succeeds thus and gain's the hero's reward, so validating wickedness and trivializing suffering -- and I can't imagine who would want to do so over the length of a novel. I think 'cool' and 'edgy' pseudo-heroes are the last thing modern sword and sorcery needs. If the villains aren't to be protagonists, then a Villains series is just a marketing gimmick.
Sorry Erik, but I feel quite strongly about this.
It would be bass-ackwards to have a Villains series before an Adventurers series, in any case.
No need to apologize, good sir! I think I was a bit unclear.
When I say a series devoted to villains, I don't mean necessarily a series with villains as the main character -- I mean novels dealing, in some shape or form, with a specific organization or a specific villain.
For instance, take Manshoon: the novel could be about a wizard who finds himself apprenticed to Manshoon. Through his eyes, we get a greater degree of insight into Manshoon's life and outlook on things. He isn't necessarily represented as a true villain, nor as a hero -- rather, we can see his motives and justification for his actions, incredibly wrong-headed as they might be.
It's more like a concept devoted to getting inside a villain's head, rather than a sinister, destructive romp through the darkness.
I think the role of villains need not always be the protagonist, and I agree that a villain as a straight protagonist isn't necessarily interesting -- it's all about the conflict, I think.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:09:48
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I apologized just because I'd rather reinforce the subject of a thread than go against it. Lord Toede, at least, does protagonize Toede, I think. But if 'The Villains' is like 'The Citadels' and 'The Dungeons' rather than 'The Harpers' and 'The Nobles'...
I dislike the whole 'assigning subjects to authors' way Realms fiction (and franchise fiction generally) works, so the first thing is, what organizations do authors want to feature? A story is bound to be better if it's begging to be told rather than having to be contrived.
My second instinct is to steer clear of the well-known 'iconic' groups, who, though they haven't been adequately explored, have been overexposed compared to the local, smaller, more secretive groups who make up the bulk of organized villainy in Faerūn. So I clicked 'independent'.
I also just don't like the idea (which isn't always the execution, I know) of these 'The ___' series because I'd rather see an organic patch of life in Faerūn, in which various different villains can be part, than books highlighting one thing in particular. 'Now it's time for the Red Wizards!' Handheld camera work rather than repeated establishing shots of the evil fortress, you know?
We've got a lot of short views inside the Zhents in Ed's work, and will likely get more in the Knights books, so unless someone has an excellent new angle on them, I'd rather not go there. Of course, the Manshoon clones potentially are that angle.
Thay, the churches of Mask or Talos, criminal groups, the Twisted Rune, the Dragon Cult, a sinister force within the Harpers, merchant cartels, the Knights of the Shield, the Four or another evil adventuring party, could all work... |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Aug 2005 19:15:05 |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:13:53
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Poll question: Zhents or Shade...tough call, though.
Broader topic in thread:
There's no reason a villian can't be a protagonist. A protagonist is only a character that has obstacles to overcome. That's the real defining characteristic of a protagonist. So, with a villian protagonist, the "good" guys become the obstacles.
There is plenty of literature out in the world that deals in the black and white of good and evil (especially in fantasy). I love literature that deals with these issues so plainly BECAUSE it is different from our own world, but we all know our own world is nothing like that and I also enjoy letting some reality of the blurred lines between the two (good and evil) creep into literature. Literature is a big, open space. There's room for a little of everything!
I've longed for a good villian-based story and I have yet to read one that truly succeeded in making the reader sympathize with and even root for the "bad" guy. Maybe he's not always so bad?
Look at modern mafia movies. Good Fellas is a great example. Ray Liota's character is just as rotten as they come but you sympathize with him, root for him and like the guy. By doing so we're not saying that leading the life of a criminal is a "good" thing. We're saying "Wow, this character is like me in x-way or like my friend in y-way and I can recognize him as a real, developed person." Granted, a person who is making different choices than we would by breaking laws and doing things we find unreasonable. But by watching that person do those things, we're not endorsing it.
The escapism provided by literature and films would be sorely diminished if every piece had to stick to the rules of 'Good=white and Evil=black'. The gray area is vast and is there for our exploration.
Just my 2 cents. |
http://www.edgentry.com |
Edited by - EdGentry on 17 Aug 2005 19:14:39 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:32:48
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I don't agree that 'A protagonist is only a character that has obstacles to overcome'. A story is inherently about a hero winning the boon for himself and his society and, ultimately, reactualizing the cosmogony. That's what human beings respond to, and a villain can't fill the hero's world-redeeming role. This structure underlies not just literal quest-narratives but all stories -- including your example of Goodfellas in which Henry Hill has not just recognizable qualities but heroic ones, despite the ostensible Mafia setting -- and it supports and permits moral ambiguity and exploration. If the bad guy isn't always so bad, if he's heroic in the end, he's an antihero (and I'm just personally tired of cynical, reluctant protagonists in popular fiction -- give us a break!). Black and white isn't what I'm advocating.
I think! |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:50:02
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I'd like to see the Zhentarim given more serious treatment, and yes maybe even come out on top for once. I'd like to see much more of Manshoon and Fzoul, and I'd really like to see what Sememmon is up to these days, as well as Scyllua Darkhope. So we could have a four part series that focuses on these characters
The Manshoon Wars self explanatory
The Black Hand of Bane Resurrection of Bane through the eyes of Fzoul
Darkhold Fugitives Ashemmi and Sememmon's adventures since fleeing Darkhold.
Darkhope Scyllua Lays claim to Scardale as the "rightful" heir of the Aumersair family.
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:54:31
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Faraer,
I was not suggesting that you (or anyone who holds the opinions you mentioned) did not think nor did I suggest that you were advocating black and white. If that came across, I most certainly do apologize.
The word "only" was poorly chosen by me in my first post. However, I do believe that the primary characteristic of a protagonist is that he/she has obstacles to overcome. That is not, by any stretch, to say that it is the only. Again, poor word choice on my part.
I don't believe a story has to be about a hero winning a boon for himself or his society or that a story has to be about a hero filling a world-redeeming role is certainly a new one to me.
A hero is a protagonist who must win a boon or redeem something (and many other things are specifically attributable to heroes as well). A protagonist can be a much broader definition.
American storytelling in particular is very comfortable with the "good" guy obtaining some new wonderful concept or ideal for himself or his society, but not all cultures agree that such a thing is necessary for a story to be a story, nor do all American storytellers, of course.
Out of curiousity, what boon in the end does Henry Hill win for himself or society other than a life that he himself identifies as miserable? What world-redeeming role does he fill?
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http://www.edgentry.com |
Edited by - EdGentry on 17 Aug 2005 21:10:16 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 19:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I dislike the whole 'assigning subjects to authors' way Realms fiction (and franchise fiction generally) works, so the first thing is, what organizations do authors want to feature? A story is bound to be better if it's begging to be told rather than having to be contrived.
Fear not, good sir -- WotC, to my knowledge, is not in the business of "assigning" subjects to authors. Perhaps they do assign a very general theme, but it's always very general: a type of warrior based prestige class (The Fighters) or a dungeon, known or unknown (The Dungeons). And that's really just a way of organizing the novels into groups, so that you don't just get a flood of stand alones -- not so bad for us fans, but it overwhelms many readers not to have some order. So yeah -- I guess that's a marketing gimick.
Then again, with the very VERY broad guidelines they give, you can do almost anything -- including telling stories that itch to be written.
quote:
My second instinct is to steer clear of the well-known 'iconic' groups, who, though they haven't been adequately explored, have been overexposed compared to the local, smaller, more secretive groups who make up the bulk of organized villainy in Faerūn. So I clicked 'independent'.
A good point. A really excellent novel would be about Shuruppak (sp?) -- either about him, or about a group of heroes organized to hunt him down. That'd get epic, though. 
quote:
I also just don't like the idea (which isn't always the execution, I know) of these 'The ___' series because I'd rather see an organic patch of life in Faerūn, in which various different villains can be part, than books highlighting one thing in particular. 'Now it's time for the Red Wizards!' Handheld camera work rather than repeated establishing shots of the evil fortress, you know?
I can see that. That's why I'd prefer a "Villains" or "Darklords" series, where authors have freedom to branch out very far. The Zhents might be a feasible choice, because they're about as widespread as the Harpers, which was why the Harpers could be done.
quote:
We've got a lot of short views inside the Zhents in Ed's work, and will likely get more in the Knights books, so unless someone has an excellent new angle on them, I'd rather not go there. Of course, the Manshoon clones potentially are that angle.
Oh yeah -- Manshoon clones go beyonds Zhents. You can easily do a Shadow Thief novel on Manshoon. . .
Earlier you asked about what we as authors would want to do:
I have a soft spot in my heart (and a story in my head) for Scyllua Darkhope. Oh, and it'd be a good one. . . and totally not a Zhentarim novel.
Also Shuruppak would be fun, and the Shadow Thieves of Westgate I'd enjoy. One focusing on the Crinti of Dambrath would be enjoyable as well.
I think also two parts of the appeal of writing in the shades of gray Ed mentioned are 1) the freedom (you're not locked in the cliche black-and-white, good-and-evil fantasy) and 2) the challenge (telling a thrilling story without slipping into the whole "make bad into good, villain protagonist" thing).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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EdGentry
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 20:15:29
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I agree, Erik. I can see Faraer's point about bad guys becoming antiheroes/reformed bad guys. I'd love to see someone truly pull off the bad guy stays the bad guy but we love him anyway.
It is doable!
Is it marketable? Maybe not. Who knows.
Faraer: I'd enjoy continuing this line of thinking, but I think perhaps we should do it privately as to not garner the wrath of Alaundo for hijacking this thread, heh. I'm leaving for GenCon in the morning but would be glad to continue this discussion via email upon my return if you would like.  |
http://www.edgentry.com |
Edited by - EdGentry on 17 Aug 2005 21:09:01 |
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Smyther
Learned Scribe
Canada
121 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 21:02:23
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Now, THIS is a tough choice. I eventually choose 'Other' for the Twisted Rune, a group I would love to see written about. Many other Amnian groups could also be fleshed out, such as the Flames of the Dark Sun, the Shadow Thieves, the Sythillisian Empire... (Note that I am not saying these because I like Amn, but that I like Amn because of these groups).
Incidentally, there is a notable book about a villain as a protagonist (though, in my opinion, a mediocre tale): I, Strahd (no, Alaundo, no staff! Just a passing mention of Ravenloft!)
There are some stories, like Erik said, that itch to be written. Unfortunately, they are unlikely to be published due to WotC dumping some ideas. It's unlikely to ever see a story featuring the return of Bane, as the event has already been fully covered in the supplements (although I did have an idea: don't focus on the return, but on a few peoples' lives as the unstoppable (and not tried to stop) return affects them). The Eldreth Veluuthra are unlikely to be seen as there is already a trilogy in progress that heavily deals with elves. Although, I must admit, I'm surprised that they haven't been mentioned in the trilogy already, as they are active in the High Forest and Cormanthor and would consider the daemonfae abominations to be fought (and because Rich Baker had a hand in the creative direction of Cloak & Dagger, detailing both Dlardrageths and Eldreth).
Oh, so many novels could be done... I dream but doubt I'll see the day. |
So sayeth the Smyther, the Dark Bard of Amn. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 21:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Smyther
Incidentally, there is a notable book about a villain as a protagonist (though, in my opinion, a mediocre tale): I, Strahd (no, Alaundo, no staff! Just a passing mention of Ravenloft!)
Indeed -- it's a wonderful novel! And in conjunction with Vampire of the Mists (which stars a Realmsian, Jander Sunstar), it gives an excellent example of the kind of story I'm talking about.
quote:
The Eldreth Veluuthra are unlikely to be seen as there is already a trilogy in progress that heavily deals with elves. Although, I must admit, I'm surprised that they haven't been mentioned in the trilogy already, as they are active in the High Forest and Cormanthor and would consider the daemonfae abominations to be fought (and because Rich Baker had a hand in the creative direction of Cloak & Dagger, detailing both Dlardrageths and Eldreth).
Who knows? There's always book 3. Don't know what'll happen.
quote:
Oh, so many novels could be done... I dream but doubt I'll see the day.
Yes. . . only one recourse:
Get on the board of directors at Wizards and dictate what must be done, or flood the publishing department with recommendations.
Hmm. That's two recourses.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 00:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by EdGentry
I agree, Erik. I can see Faraer's point about bad guys becoming antiheroes/reformed bad guys. I'd love to see someone truly pull off the bad guy stays the bad guy but we love him anyway.
It is doable!
Is it marketable? Maybe not. Who knows.
It can be done (example that springs to mind is Renton in Trainspotting) but I do think it's hard to pull off.
As for what I'd like to see, I'd like to know what Sememmon has been up to, I'd like to see something on the church of Talos and something on the current situation at Darkhold would be interesting. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 01:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I'd like to see the Zhentarim given more serious treatment, and yes maybe even come out on top for once. I'd like to see much more of Manshoon and Fzoul, and I'd really like to see what Sememmon is up to these days, as well as Scyllua Darkhope. So we could have a four part series that focuses on these characters
The Manshoon Wars self explanatory
The Black Hand of Bane Resurrection of Bane through the eyes of Fzoul
Darkhold Fugitives Ashemmi and Sememmon's adventures since fleeing Darkhold.
Darkhope Scyllua Lays claim to Scardale as the "rightful" heir of the Aumersair family.
Someone go and tell Phil Athans hes been retrenched!
Xysma you are to report to WOTC offices in Seattle you are now the new head of the book department! |
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 02:14:19
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Hmmm...difficult choice, well I generally prefer to read more about Shade and the Zhentarim.
For the Zhentarim, it would be nice to have a deeper look into the organization activities and true goals and motivations through the eyes of its famous leaders such as Manshoon(More preferably). It would be good to have a look into Manshoon's life and how this bad boy behave everyday.
For Shade, Shade appear mysterious and covered in a lot of secrets, but I would like to read more about Telamont Tanthul, I want to read more about him, see him in action and how he leads the Enclave, I mean beyond his everyday glacial calmness which make him look like an near zombie devoid of expressions. Also, more on Telamont's personal goals and motivations would be the extra points I would like to know more as well. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 02:25:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't mind reading a novel about the Eldreth Veluuthra. And just what is the Twisted Rune doing, particularly with the portal knowledge they stole from Halaster?
I like to see some developments with the Twisted Rune, especially in light of the "portal" knowledge acquisition. The effects of such knowledge upon the Realms might be difficult to portray in a novel however, unless the writer focused on just one or two of the Twisted Rune's ambitious plans.
The EV, not so much. I'm content enough to learn more about them in the source material.
quote:
I also wouldn't mind seeing the Zhents actually doing something effective, as opposed to how they were portrayed for an awfully long time.
But I still like the idea I presented elsewhere: a series of novels, each focusing on a different Manshoon clone -- ones other than the official three, of course.
And I've repeated elsewhere. This is definitely an campaign area that at least needs some further attention in the Realms.
I wouldn't like to see it just focus on the Manshoon Wars however. I want the novels to follow through on the entire process... from their initial creations (especially regarding the vampire clone) to their ultimate ends.
quote:
I wouldn't mind to read about a series about the Red Wizards of Thay, or at least one about Thay.
I mentioned something about this in another thread with a similar topic.
Reading about Szass Tam's eventual rise to power in Thay would make an interesting tale for this reader.
quote:
Call me biased, but I'd love to do any number of books linked to the Twisted Rune or the Shadow Thieves, as I had a hand in fleshing out their structures and details.
And we, as the reading public, would love to see you do this as well .
quote:
Steven
Who won't mention the other villainous groups planned/discussed among mugs with Ed that never made it to the page....
Oooh! How I would have loved to have been a mug during those meetings  .
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 02:43:23
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I agree with Wooly that I would like to actually see a book about the Zhentarim where they actually make some gains and look dangerous and competent. While I like the Last Mythal series so far, and I liked how the politics of the Heartlands were shown, especially in relations to the dales and their not so friendly neighbors, the Zhents pretty much got hosed again.
Call me a traditionalist too, but I would love to see the Red Wizards and their servants get some good novel treatment. I would love to see some good SUBTLE plots from them, in the vein of our Thayan friend that showed up in Elminster's Daughter. Of course, I would love to actually see some interesting stories about Thayan Knights as well. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 04:35:30
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While I'd read any of the choices, I think that creating, or digging out, an unexplored group for any and all of the books in a series as such would be preferable both to the reader, and the writer.
Also, they would have to be the antagonists, although the protagonist can have some close ties for it to still work. It's just hard to really empathize with any protagonist in any story if they have few redeeming qualities.
Not that it can't be done, but when done wrong, it is usually very wrong. |
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Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 08:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Call me a traditionalist too, but I would love to see the Red Wizards and their servants get some good novel treatment. I would love to see some good SUBTLE plots from them, in the vein of our Thayan friend that showed up in Elminster's Daughter. Of course, I would love to actually see some interesting stories about Thayan Knights as well.
You wouldn't call releasing Eltab in an attempt to depose Szass Tam subtle? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 11:20:11
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| I would love to see a series of books on the Cult of the Dragon... It is a group that intrigues me and i would very much like to see some novels where you could take a peak into the deepest of their organization and also get a real feeling of how it works... That would be top of the world for me... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 11:42:56
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| You mean kind of like in the The Year of Rogue Dragons-trilogy? And if I've understood the blurbs regarding Queen of the Depths correctly, there's a chance we will get to plunge the depths of one of its cells in that book as well. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 18 Aug 2005 11:44:58 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 12:32:01
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| I havent read the year of the rogue dragon-trilogy... Is it any good. Perhaps i should look into it if it is worth reading... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 14:47:35
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| It's okay, not in the top-5 of my list of Forgotten Realms-series, but it's definately on the upper half. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 15:05:29
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| Unfortunately Erik when other threads of this nature pop up.You always get a few that say that you can't have an evil protagonist,and make it work well.I happen to disagree,and would love to see it more often.Elaith Craulnober definitely comes to mind...I would also love to see the origins of the Phaerimm up until the current realms year. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 17:30:05
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Fantasy themes and tones go in and out of style, just like anything else. We're currently in a pop culture cycle that applauds "gritty" and "dark," and prefers antiheroes to heroes. Witness the success of such shows as "The Sopranos." Or we want deeply flawed heroes, such as the plastic surgeons on "Nip/Tuck," or Dennis Leary's Tommy character on "Rescue Me," or even the ensemble in "Seinfeld." We root for the thieves in such movies as "The Italian Job" and "Ocean's Eleven" to pull off their heists.
In this particular mood, a series with villians or antiheroes as protagonists would probably be well accepted by many readers. But there's another factor to consider, and that goes to the heart of the definition of fantasy literature. Bob Salvatore's answer is straight to the point: Fantasy = Good Wins. If you want to celebrate the triumph of evil, read horror. You'll notice that his books seem to strike a chord with a lot of readers. So do the Harry Potter books, which focus on struggle between "good wizards" and the followers of a dark lord. That said, even Bob is veering more toward moral ambiguity with his Robin Hood character in THE HIGHWAYMAN, and the upcoming books about Jarlaxle and Entreri. One of his greatest strengths is knowing his audience and giving them what they want.
That said, the struggle between good and evil is still the central issue examined in most fantasy books. When the central character is unlawful, he must be shown breaking unjust laws and standing against tyrants. If he is evil, he must either be vanquished, or he must prevail against someone who is even MORE evil. In the movies mentioned above, the thieves are likable people out to revenge betrayal and the murder of a friend, or seeking to put a Very Bad Guy in his place and win back a lost love. Tony Soprano is a murderous sociopath, but after we met his mother, he didn't look quite so bad. Bob's highwayman is robbing the rich to feed the downtrodden. Even in the War of the Spider Queen series, when SOMEone had to win and that someone had to be chosen from a list of thoroughly evil people, readers tended to root for the drow they found most likable.
Since FR has had a series about villains--the War of the Spider Queen--reader reactions might provide a reasonable predictor for future, similar series. Most FR readers like drow, and Bob's participation in this series added a lot of appeal for his fans. A good question to ask is whether or not other FR "bad guys" could gain a similar following.
The criticism I saw most frequently lobbed at WotSQ was, "Why did XX have to die? He was my favorite character in the series!" This was closely followed by, "There just didn't seem to be much resolution. Nothing really changed, nothing really HAPPENED." Well, that's not strictly true. Quite a lot happened, and quite a lot changed. But the story, by its very nature, lacked the traditional "good wins" resolution, and I think that had a subconscious influence on many readers' perceptions. People enjoyed the series and most agreed that the final book was very well written, but even though the ending was logical, readers of traditional fantasy are expecting something that the series--again, but its very nature--simply could not deliver. And I think those deep-seated perceptions and expectations will make it difficult for anyone who writes stories with villains as protagonists.
I have long wanted to write a book about Elaith, so I've given this matter a lot of thought. I think it would be possible to pull off adventures told from the perspective of an evil character, but I'm very aware of the pitfalls, not the least of which is one of the worries Bob had about over-exposing the drow: stripping away the veil of mystery that is a large part of their appeal. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 19 Aug 2005 19:01:26 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 19:43:46
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Good points, Elaine! I find myself in agreement.
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Fantasy themes and tones go in and out of style, just like anything else. We're currently in a pop culture cycle that applauds "gritty" and "dark," and prefers antiheroes to heroes.
This is definitely the case, and who knows how long this trend will last?
I just want to clarify that my suggestion does not necessarily mean a series of novels with antiheroes as the main characters -- merely novels that focus upon villains. Perhaps the heroes need to work to uncover and defeat a particular plot of a particular villain, or perhaps the villain is a kind of supporting character -- as I would imagine Elaith would be -- either forced to work with the heroes or manipulating the situation to his/her own end.
quote:
In this particular mood, a series with villians or antiheroes as protagonists would probably be well accepted by many readers. But there's another factor to consider, and that goes to the heart of the definition of fantasy literature. Bob Salvatore's answer is straight to the point: Fantasy = Good Wins.
I think he's right. And neither do I want to seem to be going against that definition.
Really, this series just involves a different theme -- darker, less certain. The good hero might win, but you get the real sense she might not. And if good does triumph, it doesn't do it wholesale -- there will be sacrifices. The villain won't die, or his plan will achieve partial success.
And even if evil wins, there's still a little bit of hope -- still a glimmer of good's ultimate victory. Even if the hero dies heroically, a little bit of good rubs off on the villain -- it plants a seed of light in the darkest heart. Maybe it hasn't happened yet, but you see how good will win in the end, even if you don't see it actually doing so.
I don't think that reading about villains, or even seeing villains succeed, jeapordizes fantasy literature's theme of good triumphing over evil. Because evil is, I think, by nature corrupting, alienating, and ultimately self-defeating. There's a reason villains can't succeed -- they can't work together effectively. There's too much backstabbing and betrayal going on constantly.
(And here's something I strongly believe:) In a lot of ways, a story that plumbs the darkness is more uplifting than one that is all about light's inevitable victory.
For instance, I find George R.R.'s work more moralistic than some other fantasy -- he really makes me hate the villains and love the heroes, and he makes me understand the nature of good and the nature of evil.
Villains shouldn't be faceless creatures in the dark -- they should have motives, hopes, dreams, and desires of their own.
quote:
If you want to celebrate the triumph of evil, read horror.
Ah yes. I find horror so limiting, in just the way that the "light always has to triumph absolutely" fantasy is. You KNOW the darkness is going to win, and you KNOW the light can do whatever it wants, in vain. It cheapens the struggle, I think.
quote:
I have long wanted to write a book about Elaith, so I've given this matter a lot of thought. I think it would be possible to pull off adventures told from the perspective of an evil character, but I'm very aware of the pitfalls, not the least of which is one of the worries Bob had about over-exposing the drow: stripping away the veil of mystery that is a large part of their appeal.
And we've long long-ed to read one!
Sorry if my post strayed a little from the topic. By all means -- continue posting your favorite villains and the ones you'd like to see featured in books!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 23:25:50
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| Well, it certainly can be done. Knight of the Black Rose (and Spectre . . .) was very popular, and it most definately had a villian for a protagonist. True, there are horror elements to Ravenloft, but with the right cast of characters and an author who could handle it, FR could pull it off. |
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A series based on villains? (No -- not a hint)
