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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 04:15:37
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This started coming up in the historical analog and Maztica trilogy threads, so rather than risk a derailment, I started this one.
Unlike Maztica, which felt a bit too much like a slighly more magiced up version of the real world, Kara-Tur, I felt, followed the D&D model for the european sword and sorcery mold, i.e. it flavored everything asian, but threw in a lot of new ideas and fantasy staples.
Gargantuas, Krakentoa, the Black Leopard Cult, Dragon Claw, Mad Monkey, a good and evil version of China (more or less), and all new classes made the setting feel like a setting and not just a "we need something that is just like earth, but more fantasy" psuedo setting.
I truly think that the reason Kara-Tur didn't take off, at least in part, is that, while the information was facinating, the original setting boxed set had horrible organization, and from country to country the entries weren't even standardized. Presentation, not content, killed it.
So, what does everyone else think?
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 05:07:22
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| I agree that Kara-Tur was a fun campaign setting that tragically suffered from a lack of support. I think that while the organization was bad in the Campaign Setting, Kara-Tur's biggest problem was she was overshadowed by all of her incredibly detailed and beloved counterparts. I mean, it had to compete with Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, etc., and ultimately I think it didn't have enough of a hook to draw people in over her more popular and more developed fellow settings. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 16 Aug 2005 05:08:22 |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 05:17:42
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I never particularly liked the premise behind Kara-Tur, but I did enjoy the fact that we had an "oriental" base to add-on to the campaign of the Forgotten Realms.
I'll note however, that I have never ran any campaigns using the Kara-Tur expansion, so this may somewhat affect my overall opinion since I believe those who have campaigned in the region have more definitive feelings about it.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 05:20:30
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| So no stories about being the last member of a ninja clan that self destructed when one of the cousins betrayed the others in the group during a routine assasination that turned out to be an assault on a fortress of a Daimyo that had beeen replaced by an Ogre Mage, and that after hunting down and killing the traitor said ninja retired from the assasin profession and became a Shukenja and refused to strike a living creature . . . or is that just me? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 05:22:25
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| And Lady K, its good to actually see you around . . . your Sage has spoken so well of you its nice to see such a well regarded scribe. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 05:24:31
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Edain, I agree that it had a lot of competition at the time, though I think that had it been presented as a bit better integrated into the existing Realms (embassies from Western nations, perhaps even a few NPCs from the "standard" Realms sprinkled in), that it might have felt more like part of the Realms rather than a separate campaign setting.
(Yea, I know it was originally a separate campaign setting, but that was just the bare bones treatment in the hardcover) |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 06:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
So no stories about being the last member of a ninja clan that self destructed when one of the cousins betrayed the others in the group during a routine assasination that turned out to be an assault on a fortress of a Daimyo that had beeen replaced by an Ogre Mage, and that after hunting down and killing the traitor said ninja retired from the assasin profession and became a Shukenja and refused to strike a living creature . . . or is that just me?
I think that may be part of my problem with Kara-Tur though . . . That is, creating effective and interesting stories using the material that has been published for the expansion. That's really not a fault of the setting, but rather of my imagination.
And KnightErrantJR, thanks for the comment. 
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 16 Aug 2005 06:07:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 06:20:09
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I think what killed Kara-Tur wasn't the competition (after all, most of the other settings were launched well into 2E, after Kara-Tur had quietly fallen by the wayside), but the mindset of the gaming community.
Most fantasy is, quite simple, pseudo-European. As most gamers are products of Western civilization, we have a Western mindset. So, with Kara-Tur, we Westerners had to think a different way, in a setting where the rules of society were different and where life was different. We are quite familiar with our pseudo-medieval setting, but the Oriental setting was new and unfamiliar. So it didn't have the same draw.
Also, most DMs would be wary of incorporating Eastern elements. When many of us think of the Orient, we think of what we've seen on TV and in movies. We think of samurai and ninja, and not a whole lot else. I can see how many DMs, falling into that same mindset, would be wary of trying it out. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 06:39:53
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I know it was intimidating to me as a player. Though I never played Kara-Tur, I was part of an L5R game for a while, and the hardest part for me was getting my mind around the completely different mentality. Just one small example: if someone insults your samaurai character, my first instinct is to challenge them to a duel to regain my honor. But actually, my life is not my own and I have to clear said duel with my lord first, and he has to ok my risking my life.
Now, I'm not sure if that was true in RL or in Kara-Tur (well, Wa and Kozakura, to be specific), but it's just a small example of how hard it is for western players to wrap their minds around the different mentality.
And the fact that I'm a history buff and want things to be as close to realistic as possible doesn't help either. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 08:57:56
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i agree with wooly and hoondatha. it´s the difference in kara tur´s culture that "killed" it. though i´d absolutely love to play or dm a game in kara tur, the lands of the horde or zakhara (sp?), i fear that i´d have a hard time understanding the culture of these regions.
the same applies to most of the southern countries: calimshan, halruaa, luiren (though the realm of the halflings seems to be one of the easier ones: "just like hobbiton, only warmer"  ), maztica.
even the bedines of anauroch give me a pause, and i am sure that the elven mindset, or any non-human mindset at that, should be harder to wrap my mind around than it seems, if i´d only tried to understand them truly.
but that is the beauty (or one of many beauties) of the realms: it´s fictitious AND very detailed, so simplifications still leave over enough details to portray the world in a way that seems realistic. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 10:07:40
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IN the 1st edition I played Kara Tur quite extensively. The reason for that was mostly that many of my players were martial arts practitioners and into eastern philosophy. If you read Eastern Philosophy then Kara Tur is easy to handle, but it is difficult otherwise.
Philosophy is just as important in an eastern setting as anything else. I agree that the cultural aspect killed it.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 11:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
IN the 1st edition I played Kara Tur quite extensively. The reason for that was mostly that many of my players were martial arts practitioners and into eastern philosophy. If you read Eastern Philosophy then Kara Tur is easy to handle, but it is difficult otherwise.
Philosophy is just as important in an eastern setting as anything else. I agree that the cultural aspect killed it.
I agree with that, I had to practically force some of my players to loot their fallen foes in a Rokugan game, and also mark magical items as belonging to their clan to get them to even claim them for their own.
They were taking the concept of looting the dead as dishonorable way too seriously. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 12:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
IN the 1st edition I played Kara Tur quite extensively. The reason for that was mostly that many of my players were martial arts practitioners and into eastern philosophy. If you read Eastern Philosophy then Kara Tur is easy to handle, but it is difficult otherwise.
Philosophy is just as important in an eastern setting as anything else. I agree that the cultural aspect killed it.
I´m very interested in japan, so the cultural aspect has never slown me down. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 14:43:08
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I agree with the thread wherein there is a cultural basis for most common fantasy gaming. Many of the staples of the fantasy gaming community are drawn from western writings, which are (very) loosely based on figures in Western and European histories.
I will also comment on how difficult it would be as a DM to incorporate aspects of the Orient into a common gaming setting without causing imbalances that could be crippling. This is particularly true if the DM in question is unfamiliar with the flavor and rules. Think about some of the martial arts Kits, Weapons, and abilities like Ki, etc... These are replicated in part in the Monk class, but are given new life in the expansions like Oriental Adventures. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 19:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR:
Edain, I agree that it had a lot of competition at the time, though I think that had it been presented as a bit better integrated into the existing Realms (embassies from Western nations, perhaps even a few NPCs from the "standard" Realms sprinkled in), that it might have felt more like part of the Realms rather than a separate campaign setting.
I think that was kinda why Kara-Tur was put on Toril as opposed to it's own sphere, to tread on the Forgotten Realms brand. I mean, in the Kara-Tur Campaign Setting they named dropped Elminster's name. In anycase, while connecting it to the Realms even more might have helped sales, I think it would have hurt the campaign setting's character. I always liked the way it was forgeign and very distant from the Realms. Of course, on the other hand, it does make Faerun and Kara-Tur feel a bit too much like the Eurasian continent at times.
As for the Eastern culture being a turn off, I suppose I never had that problem, but that's me. I always liked adding in different non-European inspired ideas, custom, cultures, ideas, etc. into my campaigns. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 21:42:27
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I spent two years in Japan. I love the place. Revisiting Kara-Tur as a campaign after my time in Japan opened whole new doors.
I do not mind that kara Tur is part of a Eurasia like continent. As I have said I am a historian, and part of the draw to fantasy for me was the middle ages, before I even understood sword and sorcery past Walt Disney and the Brothers Grim. (I was about 8 when I picked up D&D basic Set circa 1981). I think Kara TUr works as a separate area of the forgotten realms. Zakhara though is a definite JAMMED jigsaw piece.
In the realms I run Kensai and Samurai are all around but they are all from very far away. One will not find an ELVEN kensai unless there is a very good background history. FOr me to have a land where both KNIGHTS and SAMURAI can serve a lord is kind of counter intuitive. I need the cultural divide, to make places for all these different classes and PC's.
The MOnk I leave untouched, because I envision them as westerners that have touched on the power on the CHI. But generally I don't like east/west amalgams. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 01:17:05
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The Eurasia concept works because it gives another look at Toril, and helps players realize that Toril is more than just Faerun. I am unfamiliar with oriental adventures, but at the same time the option is always great. Kara Tur was definately not a Tack on, just something that had a bit of a bad wrap because it requires a certain type of DM and players. What it requires is that we momentarily put aside our own history and world, and explore someone elses. A lot of people have trouble doing this.
I have noted, however obvious when you think about it, the connection between Oriental Adventures DMs, and people who are interested in Japanese Anime or Manga, particularily series' that are much more fantasy based.
However, having Kara-Tur by itself kind of isolated itself. Yes, there are people who are interested in it, and the fact that it's there is awesome: but it looks like the type of thing that perhaps wouldn't have enough people into it for it to go really far. This way, the option for Oriental Adventures is still there, and since it's part of Toril it will never have to worry about its supports falling from under it. Not to mention, it being Faerun's neighbor naturally encourages Faerunian Sages to do some Oriental Studies. I know I've been inspired to (if only to better understand Toril itself). |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 01:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
The Eurasia concept works because it gives another look at Toril, and helps players realize that Toril is more than just Faerun. I am unfamiliar with oriental adventures, but at the same time the option is always great. Kara Tur was definately not a Tack on, just something that had a bit of a bad wrap because it requires a certain type of DM and players. What it requires is that we momentarily put aside our own history and world, and explore someone elses. A lot of people have trouble doing this.
I have noted, however obvious when you think about it, the connection between Oriental Adventures DMs, and people who are interested in Japanese Anime or Manga, particularily series' that are much more fantasy based.
However, having Kara-Tur by itself kind of isolated itself. Yes, there are people who are interested in it, and the fact that it's there is awesome: but it looks like the type of thing that perhaps wouldn't have enough people into it for it to go really far. This way, the option for Oriental Adventures is still there, and since it's part of Toril it will never have to worry about its supports falling from under it. Not to mention, it being Faerun's neighbor naturally encourages Faerunian Sages to do some Oriental Studies. I know I've been inspired to (if only to better understand Toril itself).
UGGGGHHH!!!! Running Kara Tur like an anime is RECIPE for disaster. There would be a bunch of Teenage Girls running around with their abnormally large boobs and swords. They would each have some fuzzy marshmallow with Rabbit ears as a familiar, and everytime they attacked they would YELL annoyingly.
Whenever they got emotional their face would warp and spray tears. The villain would be EXTREMELY sexy and every female on the planet would want to fall in love with him, except for the teeny bopper heroes.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 03:29:26
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quote:
UGGGGHHH!!!! Running Kara Tur like an anime is RECIPE for disaster. There would be a bunch of Teenage Girls running around with their abnormally large boobs and swords. They would each have some fuzzy marshmallow with Rabbit ears as a familiar, and everytime they attacked they would YELL annoyingly.
ROFL
Looks like someone only ever watched Sailor moon. Ya, however some anime is like this, not all of it is. Some of the more underground stuff, such as Requiem from the Darkness or Samurai X (the movie, not the show), are MUCH more realistic. I'd be the first one to tell you that there is a lot of bubble gum anime out there. But also, there is a lot of good stuff to (you just have to look for it). |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
[br
ROFL
Looks like someone only ever watched Sailor moon. Ya, however some anime is like this, not all of it is. Some of the more underground stuff, such as Requiem from the Darkness or Samurai X (the movie, not the show), are MUCH more realistic. I'd be the first one to tell you that there is a lot of bubble gum anime out there. But also, there is a lot of good stuff to (you just have to look for it).
Don't worry I am VERY familiar with Anime. I have even been in movie theatres that show it exclusively (When I was in Japan). The only one I ever liked Akira, Loduss Wars, Genocyber, and Ninja Scroll. I have seen others but sadly they ALWAYS fall short of what I expect. I have come to really dislike anime. I know the obscure anime as well as the bubble gum anime. I have just come to get so sick of the anime conventions that I jsut stopped watching it. Most things improve with time... Not so with Anime. its like MILK.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:35:32
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Okay,
Enough about anime and let's return to Kara-tur. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Why I Miss Kara-Tur (and why it wasn't a tack on)
