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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 19:49:36
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| It would have to be a threat of truly cataclysmic proportions... Due to the fact that their goals, alignments and motivations are so different from each other... But it all depend on the nature of the threat. If it threatens to destroy both fractions it could certainly be a possibility. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 19:53:53
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If I may recall, Azoun himself had a slight alliance with the Zhents (if you could call it one) against the Tuigan army. So such a concept is not unheard of.
Now a Thayan-Zhentarim alliance: hot damn! |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 20:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
If I may recall, Azoun himself had a slight alliance with the Zhents (if you could call it one) against the Tuigan army. So such a concept is not unheard of.
Now a Thayan-Zhentarim alliance: hot damn!
You recall correctly. But remember, the Zhents were taking every advantage they could, anyway. Cormyrean forces had to leave Darkhold alone for a while, and the Zhentish troops that accompanied Azoun's Crusade were ordered by the Zhents to stay behind, providing a Zhentish presence in the area. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 20:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
If I may recall, Azoun himself had a slight alliance with the Zhents (if you could call it one) against the Tuigan army. So such a concept is not unheard of.
Now a Thayan-Zhentarim alliance: hot damn!
You recall correctly. But remember, the Zhents were taking every advantage they could, anyway. Cormyrean forces had to leave Darkhold alone for a while, and the Zhentish troops that accompanied Azoun's Crusade were ordered by the Zhents to stay behind, providing a Zhentish presence in the area.
And I would REALLY like to hear more baout General Vraak. I would like to see a story where he is actually the HERO.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 22:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
And I would REALLY like to hear more baout General Vraak. I would like to see a story where he is actually the HERO.
You've read Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, I trust? He was a character in there... |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 01:34:49
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Harpers, Moonstars rarely endeavor to work with the Zhentarim anyway, Moonstars may be practical and more open minded but I doubt the Zhents would want to work with an organization that recruits "weird" folk into its ranks unless the Zhents are so desperate that they must enter into an alliance with the Moonstars.
Harpers working with Zhents? A one in a billion chance that this would happen given the intense hatred both sides have for each other. But there may a slight possibility that Harpers may work with the Moonstars as afterall the Moonstars included ex-Harpers in its ranks.
But if something can coerce this three factions to unite into a temporary alliance for a common goal, then the threat to them must be very very significant, enough to threaten Faerun as well.
But I wonder are there any threats that can be considered very significant enough to coerce this three sides into one united force. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 01:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
If I may recall, Azoun himself had a slight alliance with the Zhents (if you could call it one) against the Tuigan army. So such a concept is not unheard of.
Now a Thayan-Zhentarim alliance: hot damn!
You recall correctly. But remember, the Zhents were taking every advantage they could, anyway. Cormyrean forces had to leave Darkhold alone for a while...
Indeed.
And also, we must reflect on how the decision did not initially sit well with Azoun (Crusade portrayed this at times, as I recall). He knew that the move he was making with the Black Network wouldn't be considered "appropriate" by many of his peers and allies, but he did it anyway because he appreciated the fact that the Zhentarim were necessary -- a "necessary evil" more likely.
quote:
...and the Zhentish troops that accompanied Azoun's Crusade were ordered by the Zhents to stay behind, providing a Zhentish presence in the area.
An appropriate analogy of this was the Romulan alliance with the Federation during that latter stages of the Dominion War in Deep Space Nine. The Federation knew that allowing the Romulans access to Dominion-conquered Federation worlds would also mean giving the Romulans access to these same worlds after the Dominion had been forced off -- worlds that they would try to hold on to once the war was over.
It was the same in the Realms. Areas liberated by the Army of the Alliance also undoubtedly left Zhentish agents in these areas... free to work their subtle techniques of population control while the army moved on to other battles.
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Edited by - The Sage on 16 Aug 2005 01:54:08 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 01:53:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
And I would REALLY like to hear more baout General Vraak. I would like to see a story where he is actually the HERO.
You've read Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, I trust? He was a character in there...
Oh YES!!!
And I especially liked how he was trying to be a covert good guy. I think he has potential to be a real good character. I have 2nd edition statistics for him somewhere, but I need to update him for third.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 01:54:31
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I can't quite agree with your analysis, Shadovar. The Harpers and the Tel'Teukiira would readily set aside their differences in face if a great threat. And though the individual members of the Moonstars wouldn't be happy about it, if Khelben ordered them to do so, they would work with the Zhents against a common foe.
Ditto, the Zhents wouldn't be happy about working with the Moonstars. But if Fzoul ordered it -- and remember, he and Khelben have reached at least one lasting agreement in the past -- then they would work with the Tel'Teukiira. There would be a lot of daggers in the back, sure, but the organization would, overall, work with the good guys if ordered to and facing a dire threat. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 01:58:08
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| Also the Alliance with Cormyr and Zhentil Keep was a political alliance. The alliance between Harpers and Zhents would be a conflict of Ideologies that certianly the harpers could not abide. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't quite agree with your analysis, Shadovar. The Harpers and the Tel'Teukiira would readily set aside their differences in face if a great threat. And though the individual members of the Moonstars wouldn't be happy about it, if Khelben ordered them to do so, they would work with the Zhents against a common foe.
Ditto, the Zhents wouldn't be happy about working with the Moonstars. But if Fzoul ordered it -- and remember, he and Khelben have reached at least one lasting agreement in the past -- then they would work with the Tel'Teukiira. There would be a lot of daggers in the back, sure, but the organization would, overall, work with the good guys if ordered to and facing a dire threat.
Perhaps, though the subordinates would well work with the good guys if ordered, but I suspect the subordinates would plan some kind of mutiny or rebellion against their leaders for reasons like:
1) Going against the organization's beliefs
2) The leader demonstrated "weakness"
3) Not having the interests of the organization in their hearts.
Such kind of alliance are very fragile and likely to break if say some petty dispute arises among the ranks of the organizations involved in the alliance. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't quite agree with your analysis, Shadovar. The Harpers and the Tel'Teukiira would readily set aside their differences in face if a great threat. And though the individual members of the Moonstars wouldn't be happy about it, if Khelben ordered them to do so, they would work with the Zhents against a common foe.
I'd agree with that.
The Harper Schism is more about ideaology and the application of that ideology in the Realms, than it is outright hatred.
As for Moonstars working with the Zhents... Well, I can't really see any major difficulties with that so long as the necessity for it is great enough. And I feel that the Moonstars would be more accomodating to some elements of the Zhentarim, that is, when compared to a possible relationship between the Harpers and the Black Network. The Tel'Teukiira allow LE vampires into their midst after all, which suggests that they are not as strict on alignment issues as are their brothers among the Harpers.
quote:
Ditto, the Zhents wouldn't be happy about working with the Moonstars. But if Fzoul ordered it -- and remember, he and Khelben have reached at least one lasting agreement in the past -- then they would work with the Tel'Teukiira. There would be a lot of daggers in the back, sure, but the organization would, overall, work with the good guys if ordered to and facing a dire threat.
I'd switch this around just a little and suggest that they ONLY real reason why the Zhents would work with the Moonstars is to save themselves. Facing a dire threat together would boost their chances of overall success, but while the Moonstars would be fighting for the Realms... the Zhents would be fighting for themselves.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 12:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
And I would REALLY like to hear more baout General Vraak. I would like to see a story where he is actually the HERO.
You've read Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, I trust? He was a character in there...
Oh YES!!!
And I especially liked how he was trying to be a covert good guy. I think he has potential to be a real good character. I have 2nd edition statistics for him somewhere, but I need to update him for third.
Wasn`t he in prince of lies? I don`t remember him from crucible. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 17:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
And I would REALLY like to hear more baout General Vraak. I would like to see a story where he is actually the HERO.
Well, there's always that whole "The Darklords" series idea, to complement the Classes and the Places, or even as a reverse Harpers. . . but that's just a dream of mine. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 19:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't quite agree with your analysis, Shadovar. The Harpers and the Tel'Teukiira would readily set aside their differences in face if a great threat. And though the individual members of the Moonstars wouldn't be happy about it, if Khelben ordered them to do so, they would work with the Zhents against a common foe.
Ditto, the Zhents wouldn't be happy about working with the Moonstars. But if Fzoul ordered it -- and remember, he and Khelben have reached at least one lasting agreement in the past -- then they would work with the Tel'Teukiira. There would be a lot of daggers in the back, sure, but the organization would, overall, work with the good guys if ordered to and facing a dire threat.
That pretty much summed up my thoughts on the subject. The question popped into my head as I was thinking about the Harper/Moonstar schism, which was largely due to Khelben's arrangement with Fzoul in the first place. I like to think of Khelben as having so many "irons in the fire" the he is constantly manipulating an action here, whispering into an ear over there, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if Khelben had intentionally caused the schism in order to create a new group for those that would not have been welcomed into the Harpers. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 22:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
It wouldn't surprise me if Khelben had intentionally caused the schism in order to create a new group for those that would not have been welcomed into the Harpers.
I can see that, but I don't think you carried it out far enough. As I see it, he needed a group that would admit folk the Harpers wouldn't, to accomplish goals that Harpers would shy away from. And he needed the group to be under his direct control, to keep them focused on his goals. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 02:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can see that, but I don't think you carried it out far enough. As I see it, he needed a group that would admit folk the Harpers wouldn't, to accomplish goals that Harpers would shy away from. And he needed the group to be under his direct control, to keep them focused on his goals.
You could interpret Khelben's actions with regard to the creation of the Moonstars like that -- but I think that the fact they were brought together for some as yet undefined purpose remains the true unifying factor here.
And we have to remember also that, operationally, the Tel'Teukiira perform their day-to-day duties very much like the Harpers still do. What is different, is the fact that the Moonstars are willing to go just that little bit further into the gray area between good and evil to bring up the changes necessary for keeping all things in balance.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 03:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can see that, but I don't think you carried it out far enough. As I see it, he needed a group that would admit folk the Harpers wouldn't, to accomplish goals that Harpers would shy away from. And he needed the group to be under his direct control, to keep them focused on his goals.
You could interpret Khelben's actions with regard to the creation of the Moonstars like that -- but I think that the fact they were brought together for some as yet undefined purpose remains the true unifying factor here.
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.  |
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DeathRage
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 03:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
So that meant that Khelben is willing to recruit people that are of LE, CE, NE alignments? Even Artemis Enteri will also be recruited if Khelben sees that there is an opportunity to do so? |
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathRage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
So that meant that Khelben is willing to recruit people that are of LE, CE, NE alignments? Even Artemis Enteri will also be recruited if Khelben sees that there is an opportunity to do so?
I haven't yet read the CIty OF Splendors, though that is on the agenda for the next couple of days, but I rememebr that Khelben was Lawful Neutral, so I do not see him as having a problem recruiting those of questionable morals.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathRage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
So that meant that Khelben is willing to recruit people that are of LE, CE, NE alignments? Even Artemis Enteri will also be recruited if Khelben sees that there is an opportunity to do so?
There are some evil races in the Moonstars. Hells one of them is a vampire. :) |
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Adarin
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by DeathRage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
So that meant that Khelben is willing to recruit people that are of LE, CE, NE alignments? Even Artemis Enteri will also be recruited if Khelben sees that there is an opportunity to do so?
There are some evil races in the Moonstars. Hells one of them is a vampire. :)
Despite Khelben's status as LN, I sometimes find it hard to believe, much less accept the fact that he is willing to recruit undead, evil races into the Moonstar ranks, I think the Moonstars should be renamed since there are such evil races in their ranks. |
There will always be parting of ways which is never of your preference. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathRage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
So that meant that Khelben is willing to recruit people that are of LE, CE, NE alignments? Even Artemis Enteri will also be recruited if Khelben sees that there is an opportunity to do so?
Not just the opportunity, but the need. He doesn't recruit people for the sake of doing so: anyone he recruits is going to be someone that can be of value to the organization and his goals. And unless it's just someone he wants to manipulate, the recruit will be loyal to the Blackstaff and share the stated goals of the Moonstars. Remember the words of Sage Schend:
quote:
Just be sure that if they're in the tel'Teukiira, they've been vetted and screened and triple-checked for their usefulness and loyalties at a level inconceivable to even the most ardent politicos on this world.
Steven
Who will say Khelben actually enjoys having the shadier members of the Moonstars around, as it's fun for him to watch them try and outmaneuver him as he's 17 steps ahead of them....
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:47:49
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| So I assume from the last few replies that those Moonstar agents that hail from evil races are still generally "loyal" to Khelben. But so far had any of these agents attempted to kind of go against Khelben? Just asking only. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:48:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Adarin
Despite Khelben's status as LN, I sometimes find it hard to believe, much less accept the fact that he is willing to recruit undead, evil races into the Moonstar ranks, I think the Moonstars should be renamed since there are such evil races in their ranks.
There's only a couple of vampires. Both of them agree with Khelben's overall goals. One was a former Harper.
Remember, just because someone is evil, it doesn't make them incapable of good acts.
And why should the group be renamed? The gods who support the Harpers obviously don't have a problem with Khelben's actions -- this is evidenced by the fact that as far as the Prestige Classes are concerned, Harpers who join the Tel'Teukiira retain all of their Harper benefits. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 05:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
So I assume from the last few replies that those Moonstar agents that hail from evil races are still generally "loyal" to Khelben. But so far had any of these agents attempted to kind of go against Khelben? Just asking only.
Not that we know of. The organization is still young, so to speak, and Khelben picks his people carefully. Malchor Harpell is likely the most reluctant member of the group, and he just wants to make sure the group is doing the right thing. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 07:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
So I assume from the last few replies that those Moonstar agents that hail from evil races are still generally "loyal" to Khelben. But so far had any of these agents attempted to kind of go against Khelben? Just asking only.
We can never really know the truth of this.
Cloak & Dagger suggests that Manshaka, the LE vampire who has joined with the Moonstars, has as yet not made his reasons for staying with the Moonstars known to anyone - - besides possibly Khelben.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 07:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not that we know of. The organization is still young, so to speak, and Khelben picks his people carefully. Malchor Harpell is likely the most reluctant member of the group, and he just wants to make sure the group is doing the right thing.
and
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
We can never really know the truth of this.
Cloak & Dagger suggests that Manshaka, the LE vampire who has joined with the Moonstars, has as yet not made his reasons for staying with the Moonstars known to anyone - - besides possibly Khelben.
I understand now, anyway, my thanks to you both for the replies to my question. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 17 Aug 2005 07:14:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 14:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
Indeed.
I'd even go as far as suggesting that there is a small corps of the Moonstars sequestered away somewhere in the Realms who operate directly as Khelben's personal "covert strike team" -- doing whatever he needs, when he needs it.
It could be that Manshaka is actually part of this small elite group.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 17:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yes, that's a given. But Khelben obviously needs folk with looser morals than the Harpers have, for whatever his purpose is. Not the whole organization, obviously, but at least a few -- kind of a black ops team, if you will. That was my point.
Indeed.
I'd even go as far as suggesting that there is a small corps of the Moonstars sequestered away somewhere in the Realms who operate directly as Khelben's personal "covert strike team" -- doing whatever he needs, when he needs it.
It could be that Manshaka is actually part of this small elite group.
StormWatch Black?
I can easily see Khelben maintaining his only little strike team like that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Moonstars, Harpers... Zhentarim?
