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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 16:35:09
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I have read quite a few books about the drow and about their goddess Lloth. And i have come to wonder... Is she a purebread god or is she in truth a powerful demon as i think i remember her mentioned as in a book. She isnt mentioned in the 2nd edition Faiths and Avatars book. So i realy dont know what to believe. (Please no SPOILERS from novels as i dont want to ruin any of the books about the drow for future readers)... Please let me know what you know about the subject so that i can erase the question from my memory...
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"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 17:03:26
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First she was a lesser power of the seldarine named Araushnee, and consort of Corellon; then she betray her husband and was transoformed into a spider-shaped tanar'ri and banished to the Abyss.
She took the name Lloth as abyssal lord (lady?), and later became an intermediate power.
She's detailed in 2nd editions Demihuman Deities. |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 17:20:52
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| Cool... Thanks... Sounds like i have to pick up that book... All i wanted to know... Great. Thanks Misericordia. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 17:26:26
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| However originally in the 1e material that is not FR material she was a tanar'ri who became a goddess. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 17:39:52
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More precisely, in the original AD&D there is no hard distinction between gods and demon lords/archdevils. Lolth is a demon and effectively a god, but so is Asmodeus, Iuz, Orcus, Demogorgon, etc. The distinction came with 2nd Edition and its downplaying (originally, elimination) of demons and devils.
Her name is Lolth, not Lloth, except to the residents of Menzoberranzan and Uluitur. |
Edited by - Faraer on 15 Aug 2005 17:42:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 18:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Faramicos
I have read quite a few books about the drow and about their goddess Lloth. And i have come to wonder... Is she a purebread god or is she in truth a powerful demon as i think i remember her mentioned as in a book. She isnt mentioned in the 2nd edition Faiths and Avatars book. So i realy dont know what to believe.
Her fall is chronicled in the novel Evermeet.
Faiths & Avatars was part of a deific trilogy, and only covered the dominant deities of the Faerűnian pantheon. The second book, Powers & Pantheons, covered some of the lesser deities, as well as some of the other pantheons. The third book, Demihuman Deities, covered the deities of the demihumans: drow, halflings, gnomes, dwarves, and elves.
That trio of books is to me an invaluable resource for any Realms fan. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 20:08:03
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| OK... Sounds like i have to pick up both books... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 20:51:36
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AND in first edition she had 66 h.p.
There is ONE character of D&D that is happy about edition changes!!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 22:30:37
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| Yeah, well Lolth was not the sacred cash cow during First Edition (anyone else hearing Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days" in the background?) that she is now. Drow got really popular I think starting in Second Edition mostly. You know, everyone wanted to be like Mike...err...Drizzt. Nowadays shes just a goddess for all intensive purposes, since Demon Princes and Archdevils don't need followers and, if I read the rules correctly, cannot grant spells (the Book of Vile Darkness has a alternate rule allowing them to grant spells). |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
Yeah, well Lolth was not the sacred cash cow during First Edition (anyone else hearing Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days" in the background?) that she is now. Drow got really popular I think starting in Second Edition mostly. You know, everyone wanted to be like Mike...err...Drizzt. Nowadays shes just a goddess for all intensive purposes, since Demon Princes and Archdevils don't need followers and, if I read the rules correctly, cannot grant spells (the Book of Vile Darkness has a alternate rule allowing them to grant spells).
I agree fot the most part, but I remember the inundation with the Dark Elves starting Just before Unearthed Arcana (1st edition) was released. People were playing Dark Elves BEFORE then at an alarming rate, even before Drizzt. I think dark elves have a draw to them. Powerful and Evil, and a beauty to them as well.
I think Homeland and such cashed in on Drizzt's personality, more than Dark Elves themselves, but the Dark Elves were always a gamer favourite even before Crystal Shard.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:17:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
First she was a lesser power of the seldarine named Araushnee, and consort of Corellon; then she betray her husband and was transoformed into a spider-shaped tanar'ri and banished to the Abyss.
She took the name Lloth as abyssal lord (lady?), and later became an intermediate power.
She's detailed in 2nd editions Demihuman Deities.
She is also in the 2E Monster Mythology. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
More precisely, in the original AD&D there is no hard distinction between gods and demon lords/archdevils. Lolth is a demon and effectively a god, but so is Asmodeus, Iuz, Orcus, Demogorgon, etc. The distinction came with 2nd Edition and its downplaying (originally, elimination) of demons and devils.
A failed ploy to get on the good graces of the Religious Right, if I recall correctly. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
Yeah, well Lolth was not the sacred cash cow during First Edition (anyone else hearing Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days" in the background?) that she is now. Drow got really popular I think starting in Second Edition mostly. You know, everyone wanted to be like Mike...err...Drizzt. Nowadays shes just a goddess for all intensive purposes, since Demon Princes and Archdevils don't need followers and, if I read the rules correctly, cannot grant spells (the Book of Vile Darkness has a alternate rule allowing them to grant spells).
I agree fot the most part, but I remember the inundation with the Dark Elves starting Just before Unearthed Arcana (1st edition) was released. People were playing Dark Elves BEFORE then at an alarming rate, even before Drizzt. I think dark elves have a draw to them. Powerful and Evil, and a beauty to them as well.
I think Homeland and such cashed in on Drizzt's personality, more than Dark Elves themselves, but the Dark Elves were always a gamer favourite even before Crystal Shard.
Yep, I first encountered Drow in the 1E Fiend Folio, and 1E Unearthed Arcana, and fell in love with them. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:42:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade:
I think Homeland and such cashed in on Drizzt's personality, more than Dark Elves themselves, but the Dark Elves were always a gamer favourite even before Crystal Shard.
Well, I can chalk my ignorence of that to my relative uninvolvement in the RPG community back before Second Edition came on the scene (my group was never overly enamoured by the Dark Elves). Still, one has to admit Dark Elves have become ridiculously prevelent as time has gone on, to the point that I'm sick of hearing about them. Not that they don't have their cool moments, of course, but I've always been a fan of the surface elves...and dragons, dragons are cool.
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco:
A failed ploy to get on the good graces of the Religious Right, if I recall correctly.
Wasn't that also the reason they stared calling devils the Baatezu and demons the Tanar'ri? A kind of moral sanitization for perception's sake. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 02:47:16
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I prefer to distinguish the popularity of drow as despicable villains from their popularity as 'darkly romantic' antihero PCs. The latter tends to make me retch.quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
AND in first edition she had 66 h.p.
Although Gary Gygax didn't think much of the published Q1, which was based on a design on Dave Sutherland's tea towel. Met with an 'I killed Tiamat' convention boast, Gary asked 'How did you get past the 400 ancient dragons guarding her?'quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
A failed ploy to get on the good graces of the Religious Right, if I recall correctly.
Pretty much, and ill judged considering that that controversy only helped D&D's sales in the 1980s, as well as the moral bankruptcy of pandering to bigotry (the Code of Ethics, remember, forbade portraying any law-enforcement officer negatively -- outright political self-censorship). The demons and devils were reintroduced as 'tanar'ri' and 'baatezu' in the MC8 Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium appendix, and lo! the sky fell not down.
Since demon-worshipping cults and clerics are a sword-and-sorcery staple, I can't see a good reason for disallowing great demons and devils from granting spells, except that we're now so used to the Realms not working that way. |
Edited by - Faraer on 16 Aug 2005 03:01:09 |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 03:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer:
Since demon-worshipping cults and clerics are a sword-and-sorcery staple, I can't see a good reason for disallowing great demons and devils from granting spells, except that we're now so used to the Realms not working that way.
But if we did then we would be making fiends too much like gods and that would be bad...right? To be fair, the way the rules have been written in the past, even if a cleric has to pay homage to an evil god to get spells, they still are essentially a servitor of the fiends lord (or lady, I suppose) in question. Unless your DM is a sadist. And mine is.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer:
I prefer to distinguish the popularity of drow as despicable villains from their popularity as 'darkly romantic' antihero PCs. The latter tends to make me retch.
Thus my house rule: No Drow with alignments better than Choatic Neutral. Drow were created to be nasty villians, and shall remain thus for me (canon NPCs notwithstanding).
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer:
Pretty much, and ill judged considering that that controversy only helped D&D's sales in the 1980s...
To be honest I'd never thought I'd come to miss the 1980's... |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 10:19:05
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I really like Dark Elves but now there is an overabundance of them. I was in a game store the other day and one game had 3 dark elves, and a dwarf.
Nothing wrong with the dwarf, but now EVERYONE is playing 'the misunderstood darkelf'. It is enough to make me laugh hysterically.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 11:03:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I really like Dark Elves but now there is an overabundance of them. I was in a game store the other day and one game had 3 dark elves, and a dwarf.
Nothing wrong with the dwarf, but now EVERYONE is playing 'the misunderstood darkelf'. It is enough to make me laugh hysterically.
The misunderstood Dark Elf, is a concept that has gotten entirely out of hand, I agree.
At best any of my Dark Elf characters were Chaotic Neutral, and they tended towards evil more than good. They played upon the fear that most surface dwellers had of Dark Elves, to their advantage.
They weren't as "depraved" as the rest of the Dark Elves, but then again, they were chosen to go to the surface to gather information for their House, so tended to be infiltrator clerics (Cleric/Thief/Wizard in 2E or Ranger/Cleric/Rogue in 3E). |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 14:57:16
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My current Dark Elf character is Master of Sorcere, Chaotic Evil in alignment, and enjoys all the things that Dark Elves do - kill, betray, manipulate... that is fun!!
The misunderstood Dark Elf is just an archetype that allows people to play a very cool race but not change their moral values.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 19:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane:
The misunderstood Dark Elf is just an archetype that allows people to play a very cool race but not change their moral values.
I never get that. I mean Roleplaying Games are all about stepping outside reality, so why not go all the way? It can be fun to evil, really fun sometimes. Not having to worry about being patient and compassionate? It's a nice change sometimes from the honorable rogues, virtuous knights, reluctant heroes and all the other goodly(ish) fantasy figures (like the say, the goodly abberration from an evil race). I always figured Dark Elves were so cool because they were unabashedly evil. They had no problem with evil, they didn't conceal it, they didn't even see anything wrong with it. Their society said torture, murder, slavery and all the rest was acceptable, which is definately not what most gamers are used to I think. Of course I also think that one of the reasons they were so popular was the special abilities they had (i.e. magic resistance, levitation, faerie fire, etc.) which was all about making them a bigger challenge for PCs, but now that they are an accepted PC race I think they've been somewhat watered down, which stinks. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 21:23:44
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I'm making my comment to this a start of a new thread so Alaundo and Sage do not get angred at the Mournblade's tangential nature... AGAIN.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Lloth... Deity?
