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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 03:12:28
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Why did the cosmology even change? WHy was it necessary? From a marketting standpoint it does not seem wise. The core D&D material is the great wheel. SO why the heck did they even bother screwing it up?
Thoughts??
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 03:48:02
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Monte Cook that helped make the planescape setting thought it was a good idea.
It makes sense since Lolth was killed in Greyhawk, she should be dead.
But Lolth was alive in Faerun.
This instance potentially alienate fans of two different worlds.
It allows the happenings of one world not effect every other world, and it allowed the planes better represent the individual worlds. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 09:26:37
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That is pretty much how I understood it, but still it was weak. I pretty much viewed the deities of otherworlds as aspects. You can still have the wheel and Lolth be dead on Greyhawk. It is merely her aspect there that has been destroyed.
Tyr is a POWERFUL god in the realms, but when he is locked into the Norse Pantheon he has to sacrifice some of that power. Logival thinking is all well and good, but when it comes to the planes and the divine, anything can be the case.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 10:11:18
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| By separating the cosmologies the designers and author can screw around with planes and gods without worrying about other cosmologies. I like a uniquely realmsean cosmology better than a generic one, and maybe the designers felt the same. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 12:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
By separating the cosmologies the designers and author can screw around with planes and gods without worrying about other cosmologies. I like a uniquely realmsean cosmology better than a generic one, and maybe the designers felt the same.
I get headaches trying to accept this multiple realities thing(great tree splitting of from great wheel, several versions of Lloth and Tyr etc). It just doesn`t feel right. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 14:56:07
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Well, Lolth dying on one world while sticking around in another does not feel that much better. So if we're looking for one cosmology to explain everything we're bound to not be satisfied, so in the end we have to figure out what works on our own campaign.
So why add to the chaos by creating a new cosmology? For the reasons mentioned earlier I guess. |
Edited by - Snotlord on 13 Aug 2005 14:57:19 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 17:11:57
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Why The Designers Changed the Cosmology:
The decision was made at the outset by the designers of 3E to separate out all the cosmologies. Each campaign world would be given its own unique cosmology, and they would no longer share a unified Great Wheel cosmology as envisioned in the Planescape setting.
The chief proponent of this change (you might be surprised to learn) was none other than Planescape guru Monte Cook, as he shares in his design diary at this link here: http://www.montecook.com/diary33.html
Once the decision was made that all the campaign worlds would have separate cosmologies in 3E and that Greyhawk would use the Great Wheel cosmology for its own, it fell to the Forgotten Realms designers to design a new cosmology for the campaign world of Abeir-Toril.
They did not consider using a clone of the Great Wheel for the FR cosmology because they decided that the features of the Great Wheel, which is divided by alignment, did not work as well for the Realms in the absence of a unified cosmology shared by other campaign worlds.
Gary Gygax was heavily influenced in the creation of his Wheel by Michael Moorcock's books where his planes were divided along an alignment axis of Chaos vs. Law. The Forgotten Realms as conceived by Ed Greenwood were never strongly influenced by Moorcock's philopsophy.
Anyway, the Great Wheel was going to be used as the core Greyhawk cosmology, so they figured Faerūn should not have just a copy of Greyhawks planes, but rather a unique cosmology tailored to Faerūn's rich cultures and history. The FR designers decided to go with a new structure divided along pantheon boundaries.
Sean K. Reynolds was assigned the task of designing a new FR cosmology. He chose to create a tree-like structure with each branch of the tree representing a different outer plane ruled by the major pantheons of Faerūn.
You can read a little bit about his thoughts on designing the new cosmology at this link here:
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm20.showMessage?topicID=22.topic
and here:
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm20.showMessage?topicID=23.topic
He dropped such plane names as Limbo, Nirvana, Gehenna, Hades, Ysgard, Elysium, etc. as the Realms never had any ties to Budhism, Catholicism, or Norse or Greek mythology--with a couple of notable exceptions. And certainly neither Greek nor Hebrew nor Latin nor Sanskrit had ever been spoken on Toril (although the common tongue sounds suspiciously like English and the Jotun language of the Giants sounds a lot like Norse or Danish  ) The new cosmology would be steeped in lore that came from the mythology of Faerūn and would be named in accordance with the unique cultures and linguistic heritage of the Realms.
SKR decided to take many of the divine realms of the Faerūnian deities and expand them, using them as the foundation for the planes of the new cosmology.
Players Guide to Faerūn added to and tweaked the cosmology a bit, establishing that the planes in the FR cosmology are not static and timeless, but can change over the ages. The Great Tree became a dynamic thing, where planes grow and split off, or new planes can be added as new gods and faiths arise and sometimes these branches die and planes fade away when their pantheons die off or are forgotten.
The Great Tree is a young cosmology, and so far it doesn't have a lot of lore to support it yet. Many people who either had long established campaigns or who discovered the wealth of wonderful Planescape sources out there have preferrered to stick with the Great Wheel over the new canon cosmology.
Both cosmologies are each wonderful in their own way and have a great many things to recommend them. Pick whichever one suits your sensibilities. Use the one you feel is right for your campaign and which lets you tell the kind of stories you want to tell and run the adventures that are most exciting for you and your group.  |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 13 Aug 2005 19:25:07 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 19:09:12
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| Bravo! This belongs in a Faq. |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 22:38:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
Bravo! This belongs in a Faq.
I think Grey has this saved as a .doc on his hard drive so he can cut and paste as needed :) |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2005 : 03:24:50
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You too Alac? Lol.
But I did want to say that another deity off top my head that was killed in Point A (Menzoberanzan, this case being...gah can't think of her) is alive in Point B (Now CN) |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
You too Alac? Lol.
Good point,saveing it now. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 13:56:21
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Now I know that any points that are made after gray's are going to see sincerely dimiuitive, but when reading about the great tree and the weave, I couldn't help but notice the whole Gaia Theme that Forgotten Realms has. Mystra touches everything, grants life, and branches all over the world. Anyone who has seen 'Final Fantasy' the movie has seen a Computer generated interpretation of Gaia (which is kind of how I'd interpret the weave to look like to). That, or maybe the weave of white/green light that comes out at the end of FF7. But either way, I've also heard of the interpretation of Gaia being a giant tree of life, that branches and folds, and is constanlty growing outward.
FR does seem like a very Pagan campaign setting: high magic, rune magic, a weave that encompasses the entire world, a great tree of life and time, MANY different gods. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 15:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Now I know that any points that are made after gray's are going to see sincerely dimiuitive, but when reading about the great tree and the weave, I couldn't help but notice the whole Gaia Theme that Forgotten Realms has. Mystra touches everything, grants life, and branches all over the world. Anyone who has seen 'Final Fantasy' the movie has seen a Computer generated interpretation of Gaia (which is kind of how I'd interpret the weave to look like to). That, or maybe the weave of white/green light that comes out at the end of FF7. But either way, I've also heard of the interpretation of Gaia being a giant tree of life, that branches and folds, and is constanlty growing outward.
FR does seem like a very Pagan campaign setting: high magic, rune magic, a weave that encompasses the entire world, a great tree of life and time, MANY different gods.
I think that's what they were going for with part of their pantheon. But over in Unther and Mulhurond, the deities have a distinct Sumerian/Eqyptian feeling, away from the rune magic/paganism. I think one of the great things of the Realms is that there is a place for everyone to explore whatever form of expression through gaming that they want.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 17:53:40
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quote:
I think that's what they were going for with part of their pantheon. But over in Unther and Mulhurond, the deities have a distinct Sumerian/Eqyptian feeling, away from the rune magic/paganism. I think one of the great things of the Realms is that there is a place for everyone to explore whatever form of expression through gaming that they want.
True. Ideally the FR is actually a world where the philosophy of the world on one end isn't the same as the other. Another awesome thing about the realms, and perhaps another reason why FR needed its own cosmology: To show FR's variety. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
Edited by - Sir Luther Cromwell on 15 Aug 2005 19:01:03 |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 19:09:39
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| To each their own, I suppose. I guess I'm just too old and too set in my ways to ever give up the Great Wheel. Its not that the Tree is a bad cosmology, I've just been too long on the planes to change. Besides wheres one to put Sigil on the tree? Nowhere? There's my problem. In any case, from a design standpoint, its a good idea. Its not like anyone is ever going to resurrect Planescape comercially, so there's really no need to have a shared cosmology any longer. So let the designers be creative, thats what they're there for. Of course, I don't really see how the Wheel was particularly impractical for Toril with its alignment driven arcitecture, in the Outer Planes at least, but in any case. In the end, whats done is done, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Of course, I have to ask how you can create a multiverse that doesn't comply with the Unity of Rings or the Rule of Three...oh well... |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm
pie
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- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 20:58:59
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I have to agree wholeheartedly with Edain. The change in cosmology was as bad an idea as GEORGE LUCAS making up little organisms that generate the force. THere are lots ofthings to criticize the new star wars movies about but Mediclorions (I don't care about the spelling I barely acknowledge their existence) were the worse. I hate them, and so ignore them.
I equally hate the new cosmology change because it fixed nothing, added nothing, confused everything, and was not needed. If alignments are universal concepts, the planes most likely WOULD align themselves that way. I have a suspicion that people were looking to the future to make a new book ABOUT the realms planes. That would be a very Hasbro thing to do.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 21:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Now I know that any points that are made after gray's are going to see sincerely dimiuitive, but when reading about the great tree and the weave, I couldn't help but notice the whole Gaia Theme that Forgotten Realms has. Mystra touches everything, grants life, and branches all over the world. Anyone who has seen 'Final Fantasy' the movie has seen a Computer generated interpretation of Gaia (which is kind of how I'd interpret the weave to look like to). That, or maybe the weave of white/green light that comes out at the end of FF7. But either way, I've also heard of the interpretation of Gaia being a giant tree of life, that branches and folds, and is constanlty growing outward.
FR does seem like a very Pagan campaign setting: high magic, rune magic, a weave that encompasses the entire world, a great tree of life and time, MANY different gods.
How is the Forgotten realms any more pagan that any other setting? (unless you use medieval Europe.) Pagan is a HUGE term which WOULD include Sumerian gods as well as Norse gods. The Rune magic is not a 'Pagan' thing as much as it is a Norse concept. Further more how is High magic and the Weave a pagan idea? Also keep in mind the Greeks had a pantheon of gods. I would agree on the point that a Pantheon makes them Pagan yes, but no more so than any pantheonistic D&D world.
MAYBE it is possible that the designers designed the NEW cosmology to emulate the various different modern pagan movements. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 22:24:15
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Well, I think hate would be, in my case, overstating my opinion. I'm indifferent to the Tree cosmology, I don't use it, I don't need it and ultimately I don't care too much how it develops. I'm glad the designers are having a chance to make something new and creative, I just don't think its necessary.quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade:
The change in cosmology was as bad an idea as GEORGE LUCAS making up little organisms that generate the force. There are lots of things to criticize the new star wars movies about but Mediclorions (I don't care about the spelling I barely acknowledge their existence) were the worse. I hate them, and so ignore them.
That's the problem with most retroactive alterations to an established system, some people, sometimes a lot of people, are going to find that the change doesn't connect well with existing material or destroys aspects of existing material, and therefore dislike the change. Perfectly understandable. Its why I dislike it when designers get out, to use an EverQuest term, the nerf bat. The difference is that in an MMO its often necessary and ultimately for the greater good. In the case of a pen and paper RPG its a little like the designers playing god to some. I do have to ask though, what happened to the astral plane? It doesn't show up in the Tree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did not the Drow from WOTSQ take an astral jaunt? Also, can someone tell what is Wizards obsession with everything shadow and Shadow Plane. Is it just me or had Third Edition Forgotten Realms had more shadows, shades, shadow magic, shadow gods and shadow planes than ever before? It seems a bit much to me. I mention it because I love the Plane of Shadow cop out in the Tree cosmology. Its the only thing that to me is insulting. I can accept they wanted to change things, even appreciate their creativity, even if I disagree with their motives, by the "Oh yeah, you can still go the other Primes through the Plane of Shadow, don't worry," seems a tad too much like trying to buy the dissatisfied masses off to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell:
FR does seem like a very Pagan campaign setting: high magic, rune magic, a weave that encompasses the entire world, a great tree of life and time, MANY different gods.
As Mournblade said, the Forgotten Realms hardly has the monopoly on pagan concepts. The term pagan refers, generally, to those who are not Christian, Jewish or Muslims (i.e. not a monotheist), which encompasses not one, not two, but all campaign settings published by TSR or Wizards wherein gods are handled (Dark Sun and Alternity, as well as D20 Modern do not count). High Magic, Rune Magic, etc do not amplify its pagan nature over any other setting. Greyhawk had many gods. Dragonlance had lots of magic. You can insert any of the major Campaign Settings and find pagan influences. Take you pick, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, the list goes on. I have yet to see Wizards put out a campaign setting that is monotheistic in nature. Perhaps, you are trying to illustrate that FR is heavily influenced by Celtic belief or something, but again you'd be overstating the matter.quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell:
True. Ideally the FR is actually a world where the philosophy of the world on one end isn't the same as the other. Another awesome thing about the realms, and perhaps another reason why FR needed its own cosmology: To show FR's variety.
Well, the Forgotten Realms variety has little to do with design so much as sales figures. Shoehorning Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zahkara onto Toril was brilliant marketing. Thats not to say they aren't great settings or fun. Its just by connecting the Realms to the three other settings they guaranteed a market. To be fair the Realms themselves are not as diverse as you might think. With the exception of Mulhorand and Unther, the rest of the Realms all worship the same pantheons (i.e. Tyr, Bane, Sune, Corellon, Lolth, Moridin and the rest). I don't see how they fitted in poorly with the Wheel. Corellon and other Demihuman gods, for instance, were basically used in most of the other settings. Tyr and several others were nicked, more or less, for Norse and Danish pantheons. Mulhorand and Uther basically use a clone of the Egyptian Pantheon. I fail too how Forgotten Realms is particularly unique its gods. Its only really unique stuff is Lord Ao and Mystra, the rest is pretty standard, but with some twists. I don't know, I cannot see the argument that Forgotten Realms didn't fit very well into the Wheel as being particularly convincing thats all. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm
pie
"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 16 Aug 2005 03:09:29 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 12:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Now I know that any points that are made after gray's are going to see sincerely dimiuitive, but when reading about the great tree and the weave, I couldn't help but notice the whole Gaia Theme that Forgotten Realms has. Mystra touches everything, grants life, and branches all over the world. Anyone who has seen 'Final Fantasy' the movie has seen a Computer generated interpretation of Gaia (which is kind of how I'd interpret the weave to look like to). That, or maybe the weave of white/green light that comes out at the end of FF7. But either way, I've also heard of the interpretation of Gaia being a giant tree of life, that branches and folds, and is constanlty growing outward.
FR does seem like a very Pagan campaign setting: high magic, rune magic, a weave that encompasses the entire world, a great tree of life and time, MANY different gods.
How is the Forgotten realms any more pagan that any other setting? (unless you use medieval Europe.) Pagan is a HUGE term which WOULD include Sumerian gods as well as Norse gods. The Rune magic is not a 'Pagan' thing as much as it is a Norse concept. Further more how is High magic and the Weave a pagan idea? Also keep in mind the Greeks had a pantheon of gods. I would agree on the point that a Pantheon makes them Pagan yes, but no more so than any pantheonistic D&D world.
MAYBE it is possible that the designers designed the NEW cosmology to emulate the various different modern pagan movements.
Isn`t pagan a term invented by the christhian church to describe all other religions? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Misericordia
Seeker
Italy
66 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 12:52:30
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quote:
Isn`t pagan a term invented by the christhian church to describe all other religions?
Pagan (from latin pagus=village) was a term used by christians to describe the resistance of rural people to conversion, and they're strong beliefs in Ancient Gods. |
Omnia sunt communia. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 13:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
quote:
Isn`t pagan a term invented by the christhian church to describe all other religions?
Pagan (from latin pagus=village) was a term used by christians to describe the resistance of rural people to conversion, and they're strong beliefs in Ancient Gods.
The medieval christians practically wrote the book on religious persecution. They even went and changed the name of an ancient finnish god, Perkele, into a curse!(and said curse is still being used today. I just feel my hackles rising when I hear the word "pagan") |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 13:41:11
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quote:
How is the Forgotten realms any more pagan that any other setting? (unless you use medieval Europe.) Pagan is a HUGE term which WOULD include Sumerian gods as well as Norse gods. The Rune magic is not a 'Pagan' thing as much as it is a Norse concept. Further more how is High magic and the Weave a pagan idea? Also keep in mind the Greeks had a pantheon of gods. I would agree on the point that a Pantheon makes them Pagan yes, but no more so than any pantheonistic D&D world.
This is sincerely my bad. When using the term Pagan, I wasn't using it in a historical, but perhaps a politically correct sense. I'm worried that using this word is going to end in some ugly discussion, but to be totally open the word I was looking for was 'Wicca'. A couple of good friends of mine are into Wicca and they do use Runes (however runes, as you did accurately point out Mournblade, did originate from norse cultures), they do believe in an entitity named Gaia that, when described, reminds me quite a bit like the weave. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 17:17:48
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Folks, we should probably steer clear of discussions of pagans and paganism, and get back to the topic of the changed cosmology.
And so far as the changed cosmology goes, I should also like to see us refrain from any Tree/Wheel debates. Those always get ugly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2005 : 21:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, we should probably steer clear of discussions of pagans and paganism, and get back to the topic of the changed cosmology.
And so far as the changed cosmology goes, I should also like to see us refrain from any Tree/Wheel debates. Those always get ugly.
Yeah they are like the Mediclorions. But at least 80% of the SW fans are united in not liking the little worms.
Reminds me of Malaria... EEESH!!!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 02:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade:
Yeah they are like the Mediclorions. But at least 80% of the SW fans are united in not liking the little worms.
Reminds me of Malaria... EEESH!!!!!
Except quinine won't help a bit with the little Force pests. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm
pie
"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 15:46:37
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Wait a second, I just thought of a way to fix all of this!! Merge the two!
The great wheel represents a world divided into the three ethical alignments, Law, neutrality, and chaos, correct?
Well, consider a universe where the great wheel was simply one axis (the X-axis for example). What if this universe had the great tree as its Y-axis.
The way this works: The roots of the tree represent evil (the underdark, hell, darkness, etc.), the middle of the tree represents neutrality (on a moral level, such as the earth), and the branches represent good (the heavens, the sun, the sky, light, etc).
This way, we get a picture that represents the entirity of ALL alignments. A great wheel, which is centered around the great tree. The very center of the universe it totally neutrality (true neutral) Could this work?
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"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 17:17:34
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My idea for merging the two is to assume that the Tree reaches each deity's domain, and goes no further. The domain, though, lies on a plane of the Wheel. So the Wheel remains accessible, you just have to go thru the Tree to get to it.
As for the other planes, I suppose they could be treated in a similar fashion. Toril's Plane of Shadow, for example, would be like a subplane, part of the Wheel's Plane of Shadow.
That's the best way to merge the two that I can think of... Though, to be honest, I'm no expert on planar lore, and haven't really pondered the whole issue that much. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2005 : 17:37:54
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Ed Greenwood and I both assume that each planar map is a limited, unreliable, mortal diagram of the infinite planes, that all the connections shown on both maps work -- probably. It quite mistakes the character of the planes to think that a two-dimensional diagram is anything more than an approximate guess. (The new planes group the gods in a much better way than AD&D's alignment-divided, inappropriately named outer planes, but the new planes are inadequate for everything other than gods' homes.)quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Yeah they are like the Mediclorions. But at least 80% of the SW fans are united in not liking the little worms.
No such information is available: all you can say is that a few people rant about midi-chlorians on messageboards. People who ignore things don't bring them up repeatedly.
They are a wonderful part of Star Wars's symbiosis theme, and they don't demystify the Force, as is sometimes claimed, any more than the existence of neurons explains consciousness. |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Aug 2005 17:38:41 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 07:19:53
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Well according to some writings in Bantha Tracks in SW INSIDER, it was the outcry on Mediclorions that actually made them play a MUCH lesser role than was intended. They were mentioned again in Revenge of the Sith, but they were originally intended to have a greater part in the story. Mediclorions DID in fact demystify the force and that is why so many people were angered about it. The symbiosis theme in SW is very weak, and did not have to be played out by the worms. Symbiosis relationships in nature are sometimes but not always beneficial to both parties.
Anyway, back on topic. I have always used the domains of the tree in conjuction with the great wheel. ON Toril you can reach the deities realms Either through the pathways of the trees, or by venturing into the proper outer planes. In cases where alignment would conflict in a deities residence, I have the deities domain as an additional Link to an outer plane. For example Fury's heart is home to Both Talos and Auril. Fury's heart itself is NOT placed in the Abyss and instead is placed in Gehenna (I think that is the plane between the abyss and Hades.) In cases where a deities alignment is greatly different, the Greatest Deitie's alignment decides what plane the realm is in. I have been playing it this way for years and it seems to work, which is why the cosmology change is not as bad as it could of have been.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 16:27:16
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quote:
Anyway, back on topic. I have always used the domains of the tree in conjuction with the great wheel. ON Toril you can reach the deities realms Either through the pathways of the trees, or by venturing into the proper outer planes. In cases where alignment would conflict in a deities residence, I have the deities domain as an additional Link to an outer plane. For example Fury's heart is home to Both Talos and Auril. Fury's heart itself is NOT placed in the Abyss and instead is placed in Gehenna (I think that is the plane between the abyss and Hades.) In cases where a deities alignment is greatly different, the Greatest Deitie's alignment decides what plane the realm is in. I have been playing it this way for years and it seems to work, which is why the cosmology change is not as bad as it could of have been.
That's actually a really good way to go about it. I can see how that works. Now what would be awesome is if there was a gran visual aid for this, so maybe there could be some possibility of taking away any confusion there may be for future players/GMs. |
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"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2005 : 01:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
That's actually a really good way to go about it. I can see how that works. Now what would be awesome is if there was a gran visual aid for this, so maybe there could be some possibility of taking away any confusion there may be for future players/GMs.
If you look at the Cosmology tree in the Forgottne Realms Campaign Guide they show a diagram of the links. I have placed Eilestree's main home in The Beastlands (I think, I do not have my notes or even a digram of the great wheel here in Arizona). So lets just say for sake of argument her main realm is in the beastlands. If A PC wants to travel to the beastlands there are a couple ways to do it. 1) The traditional, ethereal to Astral to Beastlands, 2) Conduit from Faerun (Conduits have same hazards as Astral with regards to the realms) to the Demonweb pits (to Eilistraes home there) to the beastlands, 3) Conduit from Faerun to House of Nature (Anchored to the Beastlands even though Sylvanus is Neutral) to the Beastlands. Also the tree of the domains As I call it have FOUR main anchor points: House of the Triad (on Mount Celestia), Arvandor (on the old Olympus or Arborea), The Abyss, and the Nine Hells. Basically the four extreme alignments. So any faerunian character can travel to any one of these realms via conduit and still reach any plane of the great wheel via traditional travel.
There are Deity only portals on some of the planes (example Bane is on Acheron, and HE can travel to the Hells but none other), set up as the Deity deems necessary.
I still maintain in my campaign that there are OTHER pantheons and MANY of them are trying to get a foot hold on Toril. A LONG TIME back story line I have going on, which has gone on for several groups, is that TYR is ACtively moving against TALOS. Talos has been knoocked down one level of Deity rank in my campaign though he is still a greater god. The REASON is that TYR is trying to gate THOR into the realms. When that happens Thor will steal the storms from Talos, and Talos will only maintain destruction. If Thor ever DOES enter the realms he will either join a domain house or Ao will allow him to build a domain of his own.
One new god that exists in the realms albeit on a cult level is ARIOCH of the Melnibonean Pantheon. He is not the greater god he is in Deities in Demigods here but he is Working on it. His power is SEVERELY curtailed with the birth of Bane. Arioch saw the death of Bane as an oppurtunity and moved. But the Lord of Chaos NOW has to contend with BOTH TALOS and BANE and is losing.
This will make the Purists SCREAM, but There is no way I am shaking the Great Wheel. It has worked this way for the last 15 years (Except the tree part has been changed and detailed to fit in with the cosmology as presented in the guide), and my players love it. So no need to change.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 19 Aug 2005 01:16:10 |
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Why change a cosmology in the first place?
