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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 19:19:10
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Poll Question:
The 3.0 player's hand guide states that gnomes have a racial +2 to Constitution, and -2 to Strength. In the Baldur's Gate games, as well as in other similar games, instead they have a +2 intelligence, -2 wisdom.
Both situations I can see some reason behind. Gnomes are tough like dwarves, and since they are small in size they aren't as physically powerful. But also, Gnomes are naturally academically smart, clever, and love to learn things. When is the last time you have heard of a gnome with average intelligence? At the same time, Gnomes also tend to get themselves into a lot of trouble. So how do you perfer to play Gnomes?
Personally, I apply both.
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"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 19:39:19
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Well, since my son plays a gnome I could see them taking a hit to Wis, HOWEVER, I'd be more inclined to see them take a Str hit.
Seeing Humans as 'base/neutral", I was always amused at TSR for putting an int bump on a gnome, thereby making gnomes by and large more intelligent than humans. Course they changed that in 3.x |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 20:01:58
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I don't see Gnomes as smarter than any of the other races, just more interested in certain areas. I see haflings much the same way. Not more intelligent, just differently focused.
It isn't just how smart you are, its how you apply your intelligence. The reason they Gnomes seem smarter in general is that they have had a hundred years more life experience than most humans.
Not smarter, just better educated. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 21:06:18
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quote:
It isn't just how smart you are, its how you apply your intelligence. The reason they Gnomes seem smarter in general is that they have had a hundred years more life experience than most humans.
Not smarter, just better educated.
I was more thinking that Gnomes are bred to be book smart, but not street smart. Gnomes are bred to to tell the fairly fine and introcate details of arcane or scientific devices, and their society seems to put less emphasis on common sense. Maybe not born smarter, but your environment plays a huge role. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 22:15:57
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And my vote goes to first option. Gnomes are sometimes a little odd, but they still haven't got naturally low intelligence. That's just 'cause of their culture( I mean gnomes just are little odd sometimes). But they aren't strong, they are even weak in my opinion, when compared to other races. But they are intelligent!
Which race is the race that invents crazy machines all over the time?
Gnomes! If you have read novels that contain gnome characters, you can't argue. |
Edited by - ode904 on 11 Aug 2005 22:18:13 |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 22:58:59
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quote:
And my vote goes to first option. Gnomes are sometimes a little odd, but they still haven't got naturally low intelligence. That's just 'cause of their culture( I mean gnomes just are little odd sometimes). But they aren't strong, they are even weak in my opinion, when compared to other races. But they are intelligent!
Which race is the race that invents crazy machines all over the time?
Gnomes! If you have read novels that contain gnome characters, you can't argue.
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. You're argueing that they are naturally super intelligent, and you picked the first option, which doesn't included a bonus to intelligence? |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 23:59:45
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| +2 Int, -2 Wis. Maybe both, but I've just never imagined gnomes to be tough in the same way dwarves are, or weak in the way halflings are. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 11:22:45
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| The Gnomes are in my eyes the intelligent counterpart to dwarfes (no offense to the dwarfes) and therefore they must get the int bonus. If they didnt they would just be another race of dwarfes... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 11:59:56
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| Gnomes are tough. Isn`t it stated in one of Salvatores novels that the svirfneblin were some of the drow`s most dangerous foes? And speaking of that, when and how did Blidgenstone get destroyed? I thought that they simply evacuated the city in one of Salvatores novels. And does anyone know the current whereabout of Belwar Dissengulp? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 12:23:04
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| No sorry... After his last appearence in Salvatores old novels i havent heard of any returns of the old most honored burrow warden... Sad... He was a cool character. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 15:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
quote:
It isn't just how smart you are, its how you apply your intelligence. The reason they Gnomes seem smarter in general is that they have had a hundred years more life experience than most humans.
Not smarter, just better educated.
I was more thinking that Gnomes are bred to be book smart, but not street smart. Gnomes are bred to to tell the fairly fine and introcate details of arcane or scientific devices, and their society seems to put less emphasis on common sense. Maybe not born smarter, but your environment plays a huge role.
I think ability score adjustments should represent physiological aptitudes rather than environmental. Gnomes are small (-2 STR) and tough (+2 CON), but intelligence is affected by the society they grew up in. A gnome that grew up in Lantan may have an above average intelligence, but a gnome that grew up in a small village in an isolated region would not have the same kind of intelligence. I guess basically I'm saying that racial ability score adjustments should represent physiological differences, while the assignment of the ability scores we roll during character creation represent environmental differences. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 15:10:23
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| Intelligence is also a variabel dependent on the evolution of the species. Humans are more evolved than horses and i have always thought of Gnomes to have a little edge in comparison to other races... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 17:13:28
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quote:
Isn`t it stated in one of Salvatores novels that the svirfneblin were some of the drow`s most dangerous foes?
Well Let's just face it, the svirfneblin just plain rock in general.
quote:
but a gnome that grew up in a small village in an isolated region would not have the same kind of intelligence.
Well you see that's the thing, even isolated, village Gnomes seem to show high intelligence. And lets just face it, gnomes aren't the simple, farmer types: generally speaking gnomish culture has an economy centered around gadgits, mining, trade between elves and dwarves (since they act as a happy middle ground), explosives, and the Arcane Arts: Gnomes don't do simple things! Infact, if you ask me, gnomes over complicate things! A gnome would invent an elaborate machine with billions of moving parts, simply for the purpose of pushing a single button.
quote:
Intelligence is also a variabel dependent on the evolution of the species. Humans are more evolved than horses and i have always thought of Gnomes to have a little edge in comparison to other races...
Agreed! Gnomes probably have a monumentally large forebrain (area of the brain associated with creativity, problem solving, and thinking), where as they would have a diminished rear end of the brain (associated with instincts, awareness, and common sense). |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 18:11:28
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| Everyone is talking about the gnomes being the Forgotten people, and an idea just struck me. What if Salvatore wrote a novel about gnomes, svirfneblin more specifically, with Belwar being one of the protagonists. Since there has been NOT A SINGLE FR NOVEL about gnomes, this just might work. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 20:17:44
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quote:
Everyone is talking about the gnomes being the Forgotten people, and an idea just struck me. What if Salvatore wrote a novel about gnomes, svirfneblin more specifically, with Belwar being one of the protagonists. Since there has been NOT A SINGLE FR NOVEL about gnomes, this just might work.
Actually, I was already thinking of a gnomish character, a svirfneblin.
Somewhere in this world, whether studying the nooks and cranies of Zentil keep, infiltrating Amn's richest Merchants, or even in your own shadow where you stand, is the figure whose true name was never learned, but can be named as the illustrious 'Tom's Shadow'. They say that 'Tom's Shadow' is the best at what he does. If you want to know the inside of even the most impenitrable fortress, you can be sure that 'Tom's Shadow' will do it, for a price of coarse. All that is known about Tom's Shadow is that he was once one of the fabled Svirfneblin residing in the deepest places of the world. An aspect which already helps him in his career in the finest espionage. But further more, there are rumors that this svirfneblin himself is actually amoung the race of beings that are known today as 'The Shades'. Tom's Shadow, the svirfneblin shade, trained in roguery, illusion, arcane trickery, and dancing among teh very shadows. You know that feeling that you get sometimes that you're not alone: who knows, Tom's Shadow may be having a bad day.
In D&D statistical Translation: A svirfneblin Shade with levels in illusionist, rogue, arcane trickster, and shadow dancer. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 03:20:21
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I always thought it would be a good idea to have a gnome hold a lantern out for you and then quickly cast a Flesh to stone spell on him. Afterwards he could guard your lawn for all eternity.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 00:50:00
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quote:
I always thought it would be a good idea to have a gnome hold a lantern out for you and then quickly cast a Flesh to stone spell on him. Afterwards he could guard your lawn for all eternity.
EEP!
^he being a gnome, runs like a bat out of the underdark^
You cruel, cruel man... |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
quote:
I always thought it would be a good idea to have a gnome hold a lantern out for you and then quickly cast a Flesh to stone spell on him. Afterwards he could guard your lawn for all eternity.
EEP!
^he being a gnome, runs like a bat out of the underdark^
You cruel, cruel man...
WELL!
You would be Well fed!!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I always thought it would be a good idea to have a gnome hold a lantern out for you and then quickly cast a Flesh to stone spell on him. Afterwards he could guard your lawn for all eternity.
 I'm sure Elminster may have acquired a couple over the years. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:29:33
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| The funny thing is, in the old grey box it talks about how wise gnomes are, lol. I don't think gnomes had much of a cultural identity other than "halfway between halfing and dwarf" until DragonLance came along and made them mad scientists. I think they were refined a bit for standard D&D into somewhat scientific, smart, trickers, a bit more book smart than halflings but a bit less larcenous (at least the adventuring ones). At least the absent minded trickers idea gives them a bit more of a cultural hook for portraying and playing them. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 06:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
quote:
And my vote goes to first option. Gnomes are sometimes a little odd, but they still haven't got naturally low intelligence. That's just 'cause of their culture( I mean gnomes just are little odd sometimes). But they aren't strong, they are even weak in my opinion, when compared to other races. But they are intelligent!
Which race is the race that invents crazy machines all over the time?
Gnomes! If you have read novels that contain gnome characters, you can't argue.
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused. You're argueing that they are naturally super intelligent, and you picked the first option, which doesn't included a bonus to intelligence?
Ahh sorry Sir Luther!
I meant the other option, and said that I think it isn't still right choice. I would say +2int and -2str, but no offence |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 13:44:24
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quote:
Ahh sorry Sir Luther!
I meant the other option, and said that I think it isn't still right choice. I would say +2int and -2str, but no offence
Oh no offence taken, I was simply confused as to what you meant.
quote:
The funny thing is, in the old grey box it talks about how wise gnomes are, lol. I don't think gnomes had much of a cultural identity other than "halfway between halfing and dwarf" until DragonLance came along and made them mad scientists. I think they were refined a bit for standard D&D into somewhat scientific, smart, trickers, a bit more book smart than halflings but a bit less larcenous (at least the adventuring ones). At least the absent minded trickers idea gives them a bit more of a cultural hook for portraying and playing them.
I find that gnomes are interpreted differently in other campaign settings than FR. For instance, in the Baldur's Gate computer game, Gnomes really did have the bonus to int and penalty to wis. I mean Forgotten Realms Gnomes, if you ask me, really are their own sort of thing from regular gnomes.
Having gnomes as 'something between halfing and dwarf' if you ask me if kind of bland. FR gnomes are down right cool! |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 21:09:30
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I will say this...
I never met a PC Gnome I didn't like. And they sure can get you out of a lot of situations.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 23:00:32
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| Given the current Gnomish archetype, tinkerer, inventor, alchemist and spellcaster, the +2 Intelligence and -2 Wisdom fits. First, Gnomes seem to be of above average intellect and learning, whether by nature or nuture is irrelevent. Secondly, Gnomes are often shown to be somewhat dangerous in the avenues of invention they pursue, casting them as being unwise. Now, personally I do not think Gnomes are particularly foolish, but given their Forgotten Realms archetype, the intelligence bonus and wisdom penalty fit. Physically, Gnomes are not particularly strong or sturdy according to thier archetype, nor are they weak. Thus, I don't see a physical penalty being appropriate. Irregardless, Gnomes rock, and are always fun to have around. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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cudi
Acolyte
Germany
21 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2005 : 17:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Gnomes are tough. Isn`t it stated in one of Salvatores novels that the svirfneblin were some of the drow`s most dangerous foes? And speaking of that, when and how did Blidgenstone get destroyed? I thought that they simply evacuated the city in one of Salvatores novels. And does anyone know the current whereabout of Belwar Dissengulp?
Belwar, I think is now in Mithral Hall with some svirfneblins displaced. I thimk he is on S. Marches |
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Lord Desolation
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 22:26:24
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| I think that gnomes are a very smart race building all of there machines and gadgets. But they dont have the wisdom to use them correctly. Thats why there such a hardy race but they dont have the natural strength which is why they build there machines. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die." |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2008 : 14:41:37
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| I apply both... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 07:36:46
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| +2 Int and Con, -2 Str and Wis |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Gnomes (Int or Con)
