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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 17:47:53
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I was just wondering, what with the old referenses to the Great Wheel and the new cosmology of the Realms, if it would be more beneficial to assume that the "Great Tree" always existed, or if there could be a more "Crisis on Infinate Earths" explanation to how the cosmology was sundered and realigned.
I guess what I am asking is not so much if you like the Great Wheel or have adopted it, but if you have any ideas about if there may have been some kind of massive cosmological realignment, and after that realignment no one remembers the "old ways" things were.
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 18:11:35
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I do not feel very strongly about this, especially after the Players Guide allowed both systems, if I understand it correctly.
I've never been a fan of planar adventures, to changing names is no problem. The players accepted the changes (most of them do not know what the great wheel is) with the ingame explanation of sagely disagreement and naming schools.
I'm probably lucky  I would hate to do a planar crisis/Galactus/Ao kind of story. |
Edited by - Snotlord on 09 Aug 2005 18:13:27 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 18:15:00
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My players generally don't care, except for the fact that their is a Fugue Plane, Hell, the Abyss, and their deities home plane . . . oh, and they hate the Plane of Shadow, lol.
What I am trying to glean here is just if anyone has tried to write a meta story into why the planes shifed into separate cosmologies, etc. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 18:27:55
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| According to the 3e game designers, the Tree has always been FR's cosmology, so you answered your own question. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 19:08:30
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Hurmph . . . no one wants to play . . . perhaps if I phrase it another way . . . I'm not looking for weather it always has per se, but if anyone has any "What if?" stories for how the Great Wheel could have be split from the Great Tree . . .
Ah well . . . gotta quit reading my old comics . . . |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 19:53:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I do not feel very strongly about this, especially after the Players Guide allowed both systems, if I understand it correctly.
I've never been a fan of planar adventures, to changing names is no problem. The players accepted the changes (most of them do not know what the great wheel is) with the ingame explanation of sagely disagreement and naming schools.
I'm probably lucky I would hate to do a planar crisis/Galactus/Ao kind of story.
They don`t even know what the wheel is? I feel like crying. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 19:57:20
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| I just thought it would be interesting to have the PCs find documents that referred to the PAST history, that has been rewritten, and have them be just completely confused by the apparent contradictions. The other thing that might be fun is to have someone show up that actually remembers the old multiverse, the way it was (yes, I am thinking of poor Psycho Pirate in his room in Arkham at the end of Crisis, so sue me, lol). |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 21:02:15
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MY explanation is simply that the Realms gods made their own planes CONNECTED to the great wheel. It is still there. For example Banes realm is based in Acheron. He has a gate city there leading to his realm.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 23:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hurmph . . . no one wants to play . . .
Ah well . . . gotta quit reading my old comics . . .
Hah! I knew it! A Galactus fan!
Seriously, I'm sorry to derail the thread. It should be possibly to create a story arc to explain this huge planar crisis. Something like Bastion of the Broken Souls and The Quicksilver Hourglass. Both adventures are excellent planar crisis adventures, and could serve as templates for the story the Sir Knight wants to outline or even play.
I played Bastion in the realms, and it turned out beautiful with some tweaking. The heroes of my first 3e game saved faerun twice, so I have no qualms about big stories when the mood strikes me.
Maybe Ao was a bad overgod and wanted to have his cosmos for himself, and created the Great Tree. Maybe the other overgods did not like that, and connected the Great Tree with the Great Wheel.
The Chosen of Mystra learn that something is wrong and set out to save Faerun from Ao's careless meddling. But something goes wrong and the Chosen become trapped on a mystic pocketdimemsion, and everything looks dark indeed. Enter the heroes.
Halastar, the last chosen left on Faerun, has a clear moment and explains the situation to the heroes, so that they can rush out and save the world.
... eh, not to bad? With some preparation and clever foreshadowing, this could work? I've done worse
(ok, no more wine for me tonight) |
Edited by - Snotlord on 10 Aug 2005 10:38:33 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 23:11:52
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quote:
They don`t even know what the wheel is? I feel like crying.
No, strange and high-powered stuff has never been a hit in my games. We had been playing Money-grubbing Knights and Evil Barons (tm) in my homebrew setting for 15 years when I wanted a new/old setting for 3e back in 2000. Planar stuff was never important, except for the an Elric reference every now and then.
You're a planescape fan? |
Edited by - Snotlord on 10 Aug 2005 10:36:16 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 23:39:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
No, strange and high-powered stuff has never been a hit in my games. We had been playing Money-grubbing Knights and Evil Barons (tm) in my homebrew setting for 15 years when I wanted a new/old setting for 3e back in 2000. Planar stuff was never important, expect for the an Elric reference every now and then.
You're a planescape fan?
Or he could be a 1e fan, since the Wheel has existed long before Planescape. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 04:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
No, strange and high-powered stuff has never been a hit in my games. We had been playing Money-grubbing Knights and Evil Barons (tm) in my homebrew setting for 15 years when I wanted a new/old setting for 3e back in 2000. Planar stuff was never important, expect for the an Elric reference every now and then.
You're a planescape fan?
Or he could be a 1e fan, since the Wheel has existed long before Planescape. :)
Ah yes Elric references and 1st ed. You both said things very close to my heart.  |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 09:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
They don`t even know what the wheel is? I feel like crying.
[/quote]
No, strange and high-powered stuff has never been a hit in my games. We had been playing Money-grubbing Knights and Evil Barons (tm) in my homebrew setting for 15 years when I wanted a new/old setting for 3e back in 2000. Planar stuff was never important, expect for the an Elric reference every now and then.
You're a planescape fan?
[/quote]I don`t play planescape, but the planes grip me almost as much as the realms. In my opinion any experienced player should know at least the basics of the planes. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:45:39
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I use the Great Tree in my campaign. I have done a lot of thinking about this. I have long suspected there must have been some sort of world shaking event that shattered the material plane into segregated cosmoi, forcing Ao to reboot the FR cosmology back to the begining of time. Thus people on Abeir-Toril always remember the planes as having been set up according to the Great Tree, even though there was a time when all the worlds were joined together.
By the way, not to split hairs, but the 3E designers have not said that it has always been this way. What SKR said was that the material will be presented as if the cosmology has always been this way.
This leaves room for the possibility that there was indeed a "crisis" which fractured the unified 2E Material Plane into multiple universes. Well... actually, sort of the reverse of the DC Infinite Crisis which unified separated infinite disparate universes into a single cosmos. 
But DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths is the model I have always had in mind. What precipitated this crisis, I don't really know. Maybe the events from Die Vecna Die. Maybe an invasion from the Far Realms. Maybe the return of Tharizdun.
Another possible culprit might have been the Sundering cast by elven high magic, which may have had consequences that reached far beyond its intended scope, severing the FR cosmology from the Wheel and requiring Ao to step in and perform major tree surgery. The Sundering is said to have had effects that reached far through time, and the true damage to Realmspace might not have become apparent until circa 1370 DR
Another possibility that occured to me was an influx of interloper gods. If the word got out that Toril and Ao had liberal immigration laws for deities, then dying deities of other worlds might have started trying to interlope into Realmspace en masse. Perhaps Ao was suddenly overwhelmed with appeals of interloping gods to establish themselves in Realmspace. Or a competing or malicious overgod of another sphere might have sent infinite recursive fragments of deities to Toril to try and interlope in some sort of massive denial of service attack. Ao would have been forced to separate his crystal sphere from the unified material plane to secure the safety and integrity of Realmspace.
There are more esoteric reasons one could imagine for the crisis. A war among overgods. An attack by an entity with divine rank beyond 40, sort of an epic overgod, which caused all the overgods to remove their various crystal spheres from the old material plane into new material planes, as the old one was rendered a cosmic radioactive wasteland.
Whatever the reason, I am sure this would make for a great story to be told some day.
In the meantime I just assumed it did happen. And since Ao's repairs to the cosmology rebooted and seamlessly fixed the timeline, no one has any memory of the alternate timeline or being part of the Great Wheel, except in so far as Greyhawk's Great Wheel is still connected to the Great Tree and is still accessible by Shadow Plane, portals, Sigil, the Infinite Staircase and other means of travel between different universes.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 18:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
By the way, not to split hairs, but the 3E designers have not said that it has always been this way. What SKR said was that the material will be presented as if the cosmology has always been this way.
Yes he has said that and so you are wrong here. He referenced the tv event they use and thus the planes have always been the Tree for FR. Gray you are wrong here, sorry but you are.
And, since the game designers wrote the material, they are saying that the planes have always been this way both in the material and how they design that material. It's not either or, Gray.
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm20.showMessage?topicID=22.topic&index=1 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Aug 2005 19:33:08 |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 20:15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hurmph . . . no one wants to play . . . perhaps if I phrase it another way . . . I'm not looking for weather it always has per se, but if anyone has any "What if?" stories for how the Great Wheel could have be split from the Great Tree . . .
A what if story, if you want it.
Not so much the wheel broke from the tree, but the tree breaking from the wheel.
We may know the "belief factor" of the planes. Cities, towns, realms on the plane drift in the direction of the plane that corresponds to the prominent alignment of the inhabitants.
This worked out well, except for some pantheons, like the one of Toril, several Deities became allied, despite differing alignments.
The deities started to move closer to each other, so they can gain the protection afforded living close to their allies.
The differing alignment of these deity realms in near proximity caused the wheel to "spit" these areas out, for they did not fit in the alignments of the planes of the great wheel.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 22:29:30
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Ofcourse since the campaigns are YOURS you do whatever you wnat with them.
Read RESSURECTION. Lloth's realm was part of the Abyss, which is part of the great wheel. She brought it out of the Abyss I imagine to have exclusive power over it.
I have never envisioned the realms as JUST the great tree. Part of that may come from the fact I have been using the great wheel for way way too long.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 00:31:32
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| Once 4th-Edition restores the Realms to the Great Wheel cosmology, we can finally end these discussions... |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 00:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
Once 4th-Edition restores the Realms to the Great Wheel cosmology, we can finally end these discussions...
Yeah, but we'll have yet another set of retcons to argue about.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 01:05:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
Once 4th-Edition restores the Realms to the Great Wheel cosmology, we can finally end these discussions...
Yeah, but we'll have yet another set of retcons to argue about.
Yup, yup to both. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 06:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
By the way, not to split hairs, but the 3E designers have not said that it has always been this way. What SKR said was that the material will be presented as if the cosmology has always been this way.
Yes he has said that and so you are wrong here. He referenced the tv event they use and thus the planes have always been the Tree for FR. Gray you are wrong here, sorry but you are.
And, since the game designers wrote the material, they are saying that the planes have always been this way both in the material and how they design that material. It's not either or, Gray.
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm20.showMessage?topicID=22.topic&index=1
Huh? How am I wrong? Sean's quote from the webpage you linked to was: "officially materials will present the cosmology as if it's always been this way." Isn't that what I said he said?
I don't know if you are familiar at all with DC comics, Kuje, but circa 1985 the DC universe had a 50 year history with hundreds maybe thousands of superheroes and supporting characters, with a tremendous amount of history and a continuity that was unwieldy and often conflicting.
As a result they decided to reboot the entire universe using an in-continuity story about a nemesis who was trying to destroy all the infinite parallel planes of the multiverse. The last few remaining Earths banded together to fight back and succeeded in saving what was left by creating a unified universe with a revised timeline going back to the dawn of time.
In addition to be a rip-roaring fun story, it also served a very important purpse to allow DC to revise continuity and straighten out a lot of inconsistencies and have a better, more coherent universe in which they could tell better stories. It was a great success for DC.
Now how this relates to the Realms is that I think there is room for an as yet undisclosed Realms-Shaking event that could have occured around 1370 or 1371 DR that might explain the changeover in the cosmology, and how the cosmology was rebooted and the timeline revised back to the begining of time.
Thus the inhabitants of the Realms would believe the cosmology had always been this way--even though the change occured circa 1370 DR.
I think an in-continuity story explaining the changeover and why no one remembers it would be a beneficial thing.
I think the Sundering might possibly be a good candidate for the cause of this hypothetical "crisis" as it has been said the Sundering had effects that resonated both forward and backward through time. The Sundering could have started a crack in the fabric of the multiverse, the full repercussions of which only began to seriously show and threaten the cosmos around 1370. Additionally the "crack" could have extended backwards to the dawn of time requiring Ao to repair the timeline all the way back to the begining.
This is all just wild speculation on my part. There are so many ways you could go with such a Crisis story. But the point is that KnightErrantJR's suggested "crisis" strikes me as a great idea, one which would give a meaningful explanation for the cosmology change and help explain some inconsistencies between 2E and 3E continuity.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 06:39:35
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Your wrong because FR has never been apart of the Wheel/Ring according to the 3/3.5e design philosphy. This is no different then how they retconned in sorcerers, how they split wood/wild elves into 2 different subraces, added star elves, etc.
Since the game designers write the material, then the Wheel/Ring has never been the planar cosmology for FR with this retcon. That's what a retcon is, and that is what SKR is saying.
But I'm tired of this, so I'm done replying to this thread because as I said on the WOTC boards, I'm tired of these planar threads turning into flames or the like. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Aug 2005 06:56:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 07:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But I'm tired of this, so I'm done replying to this thread because as I said on the WOTC boards, I'm tired of these planar threads turning into flames or the like.
And I agree with this as well.
I'd also like to see the focus of this scroll shift back to it's original discussion, that is, before Big Al returns from his "regular" meeting with THO .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 10:53:20
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Yeah, I really didn't intend for this to be a thread on weather or not you like or use the current cosmology, just about if anyone thought the idea of, in their own campaign, that the FR might have once been connected to the Great Wheel, then split into the Great Tree, in an event that would have rewritten the timestream. It just appealed to my warped sense of comic book nostalgia.
And of course if there were someone that managed to remember the old time stream and tried to manipulate any altered events that haven't fully "healed" then you could turn it into a "Zero Hour" event, which will much further confuse anyone that didn't understand the original reference.
At any rate, I think I'm done trying to make any comments on the planes or the afterlife in the Realms becuase it just seems to tick people off rather than generate honest discussion. I guess some wounds are a little too tender. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 18:55:46
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First of all I use FR as it has always been, a part of the Great Wheel, and to be honest I abhore the retroactive changes, and even more the decisions behind them and the lack of in game explanations regarding them.
That said, in a fit of whimsy, I wrote up a little page or two story regarding what beings from the Great Wheel thought about once Toril and its deities simply vanished, whisked away off to their own little cosmology (presumably by Ao). It's more than a bit dark, but I had fun with it. http://www.planewalker.com/forums/viewTopic.php?intTopicID=607 |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 11 Aug 2005 18:56:16 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 19:39:38
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Ha! That story was a hoot!
So your take on the "crisis" event was that the Torilian gods fled from the Blood War and the other more ancient beings of an infinitely large cosmos, and that they established a private refuge in a separate cosmology motivated by an odd mix of hubris and fear.
It is irony indeed that the source of their fears followed them and tainted their refuge. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 19:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Ha! That story was a hoot!
So your take on the "crisis" event was that the Torilian gods fled from the Blood War and the other more ancient beings of an infinitely large cosmos, and that they established a private refuge in a separate cosmology motivated by an odd mix of hubris and fear.
It is irony indeed that the source of their fears followed them and tainted their refuge.
Aye, in the story for whatever reason Ao decided to shelter his cosmos from the older, more ancient, more dire forces out there. Perhaps he saw a dire fate for his creation if it remained in the Wheel proper (Blood War spill over, etc) and tried to shelter it, but as the title of the story said, ever seeps through.
Of course I wouldn't actually use that story's premise, but it was just me playing with the idea at some seriously early hour of the morning, probably high on caffeine from espresso or something. It was fun for what it was. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 21:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Your wrong because FR has never been apart of the Wheel/Ring according to the 3/3.5e design philosphy. This is no different then how they retconned in sorcerers, how they split wood/wild elves into 2 different subraces, added star elves, etc.
Since the game designers write the material, then the Wheel/Ring has never been the planar cosmology for FR with this retcon. That's what a retcon is, and that is what SKR is saying.
But I'm tired of this, so I'm done replying to this thread because as I said on the WOTC boards, I'm tired of these planar threads turning into flames or the like.
Well that is all well and good, but tell that to people that have been with the realms since DRAGON. I would beg to differ and say that YOU in fact are wrong.
I have proof that realms was once or is part of the great wheel, and I am sure 3/4 of the scribes do here as well.
Ressurection is NOT the proof I was talking about. In fact in the 1st edition realms guide box set, it explained what part of the great wheel many of the Realms gods came from. Tyr actually WAS a viking god, and Mielikki WAS a finnish god, and yes even Sune was equated with Athena. You can find this in the 1st edition box set. It also talks about the planes, and so you will see that NO, in fact the realms WERE part of the great wheel.
I meant no offense, but it is rather annoying to hear someone deemed as WRONG because of an updated book. Get familiar with the older material before you make such statements.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 11 Aug 2005 21:37:02 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 22:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Your wrong because FR has never been apart of the Wheel/Ring according to the 3/3.5e design philosphy. This is no different then how they retconned in sorcerers, how they split wood/wild elves into 2 different subraces, added star elves, etc.
Since the game designers write the material, then the Wheel/Ring has never been the planar cosmology for FR with this retcon. That's what a retcon is, and that is what SKR is saying.
But I'm tired of this, so I'm done replying to this thread because as I said on the WOTC boards, I'm tired of these planar threads turning into flames or the like.
Well that is all well and good, but tell that to people that have been with the realms since DRAGON. I would beg to differ and say that YOU in fact are wrong.
I have proof that realms was once or is part of the great wheel, and I am sure 3/4 of the scribes do here as well.
Ressurection is NOT the proof I was talking about. In fact in the 1st edition realms guide box set, it explained what part of the great wheel many of the Realms gods came from. Tyr actually WAS a viking god, and Mielikki WAS a finnish god, and yes even Sune was equated with Athena. You can find this in the 1st edition box set. It also talks about the planes, and so you will see that NO, in fact the realms WERE part of the great wheel.
I meant no offense, but it is rather annoying to hear someone deemed as WRONG because of an updated book. Get familiar with the older material before you make such statements.
Kuje knows that, and he uses FR within the Great Wheel. He was stating that the current 3e FR stance in the books, and according to at least one designer responsible for the retcon, is that FR has always had its current new cosmology and never had the Great Wheel and you should just ignore all the editions worth of material that say otherwise because we say so. It's innane, but sadly that's the current official word. 
Not that I give a mezzoloth's behind in its favor mind you. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 22:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Well that is all well and good, but tell that to people that have been with the realms since DRAGON. I would beg to differ and say that YOU in fact are wrong.
I have proof that realms was once or is part of the great wheel, and I am sure 3/4 of the scribes do here as well.
Ressurection is NOT the proof I was talking about. In fact in the 1st edition realms guide box set, it explained what part of the great wheel many of the Realms gods came from. Tyr actually WAS a viking god, and Mielikki WAS a finnish god, and yes even Sune was equated with Athena. You can find this in the 1st edition box set. It also talks about the planes, and so you will see that NO, in fact the realms WERE part of the great wheel.
I meant no offense, but it is rather annoying to hear someone deemed as WRONG because of an updated book. Get familiar with the older material before you make such statements.
Sigh,
After four years, I can't believe that this debate is still coming up.
The Wheel/Ring has been retconned out and the Tree has always been FR's cosmology. You didn't read my reply, did you? I said "The 3/3.5e design philosophy is this: The Tree has always existed as the cosmology and so that is now the canon cosmology. The Wheel/Ring is not the canon cosmology for FR and it never has been due to the retcon." Why is this so hard to grasp? The Player's Guide to Faerun also makes this clear because it says, "FR's cosmology is seperate and different then the core cosmology of Greyhawk, which is shaped like a Wheel/Ring." And so there are current sourcebooks and 3/3.5e game designers who have said, "FR's cosmology has always been the Tree because we RETCON'd it." And even Ed knows that there are now two seperate cosmologies, because he said so to Shemmy last year. There's FR's old cosmology, which never existed in FR because of the retcon, and then there's the retconned cosmology, which is the Tree, which has always existed.
And for the record, if you read my NPC file, you would see that I own all but 3 FR sourcebooks. Plus I own all but 1 Planescape sourcebook, which is the stetchbook, most of the Spelljammer sourcebooks, and a quarter of Ravenloft sourcebooks. So, I know what the planes are like in the old lore, thank you very much. And I know what they are in the new lore as well.
However, I repeat, to make it clear, hopefully. The game designers retconned out the Wheel/Ring and thus FR's cosmology has never been the Wheel/Ring and it's always been the Tree, according to 3/3.5e's retcon.
Now I'm truely done with this debate.
And let's get this back on topic! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Aug 2005 23:54:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 23:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And let's get this back on topic!
Indeed. I don't want to have to lock this one. |
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Crisis on Infinate Campaign Settings: Cosmology
