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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
Here is what I remember...there are 3 types of mythals, 3 methods on making a mythal
1) Elven High Magic mythals (created by elven high magic  )
2) Wizardly mythals (created by 10+ Lv spells/true dweomers/epic magic/etc.)
3) Layers of wards and magical fields, one on top of each other, until it seems you have a mythal effect (like Netherese Mythalars, Undermountain, Silverymoon or the drow mansions)
and I have a dim memory that I read somewhere that during the Descent (when the dark elves were deemed "Drouew" (sp?) and fled into the Underdark and became the drow) Corellon removed the drows connection from the Weave thus the drow cannot work Elven High magic anymore...thus they cannot cast or manipulate an Elven High Magic Mythal...so a drow creating a mythal would have to resort to #2 or #3 method
and yes, the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves is the best book overall for mythals..the old box set Ruins of Myth Drannor may have a bit of info too (the Cormanthyr book's Myth Drannor mythal was based of the box set's mythal)
You sure that the Silverymoone "Mythal" is only layers of normal wards and protective spells??? |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls?
Yep.
Then they traveled back in time 14,000 years and taught High Magic to the Elves of that era, so they could pull off the Sundering.
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, the original lore had them flat out excluded from being able to use it. I'd take that to mean that even if trained, they'd not be able to use it.
True.
However, it was rumored that the Drow had developed their own version of High Magic, back in the AD&D days.
It would not be surprising to me that, over a decade later, (3E days) that this plot hook reached fruition. |
Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 31 Jan 2013 09:28:26 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
You sure that the Silverymoone "Mythal" is only layers of normal wards and protective spells???
Yes.
(The Moonbridge is super fancy, though.) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:44:01
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Totally agree that in 2nd E it said drow could not use high magic. My point was maybe they just don't know how. Or maybe due to their untrusting nature it is extremely difficult for a group of drow to link as needed (though if Red Wizards can form a circle, so can drow in my book); they have the potential, but their intellect gets in the way of their wisdom. Saying "those dirty drow can't use high magic" sounds like something a gold would say, not because its true but as an insult.
Also, who's to say there is not more than one kind of High Magic? By this I mean there tend to be things based on life and energy and then opposites based on darker principles. Perhaps the illithiri learned a different, now forgotten form of high magic (most of their rituals would have been useless underground and so, in the rush to claim power and survive, forgotten)
I also always thought that the fire spiders that burned down the forest seemed more like high magic than the low level spell detailed in 3rd ed.
I had actually forgotten about that example Wooly thanks - apparently their stupid spell worked on me as well :P - in fact, I seem to have blocked as much of those books out of my head as possible.
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Edited by - The Masked Mage on 31 Jan 2013 09:59:43 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2438 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 04:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It is possible that drow possess the instrinsic capacity for elven high magic, even though no examples exist to confirm this.
Elven high magic is fundamentally based on profound connections between nature, the Weave, and their interactions.
...
I think drow can't use high magic; if they could then we would have seen them use it (especially against other drow). But I also think they wouldn't need it to construct mythals.
IMO, High Magic requires a specific connection to magic (the Weave), and it's intricate enough that one may lose ability to use High Magic, but still be a normal elf and archmage (like Mythanthar). The drow are demonstrably different from surface elves as magical creatures. Much like a dragon could not use High Magic and an elf could not use dragon-magic.
Of course, this comparison may mean that drow as a different kind of highly magical creatures, are potentially capable of devising forms of magic use that would fit specifically them... and may include yet another unique path to advanced magic? 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which makes sense, if you consider High Magic to be a gift from the Seldarine.
Aye, but... hishna was a gift to Mazticans from Zaltec. After which, pluma was a gift to Mazticans from Qotal. Neither, interestingly enough, have any prerequisites, including "alignment" and "patron deity". They merely are optimal for different tasks, while appealing to - and encouraging - different attitudes. So... I won't assume anything not written plainly in such matters. 
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls?
See also: "Dracorage Mythal". That was circa -25k DR by GHotR.  Even not counting that, elves had a lot of such toys back before they deigned to notice humans at all, let alone teach early Netherese the first cantrips.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My point was maybe they just don't know how. Or maybe due to their untrusting nature it is extremely difficult for a group of drow to link as needed (though if Red Wizards can form a circle, so can drow in my book);
The former is unlikely, due to the scale of Descent and powerful magic obviously being an extremely valuable resource before they adapted - not on "keep in a locked coffer, will ya?" level, but on "backup again!!!" level. The latter is irrelevant for Rituals of Solitude. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 05:00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It is possible that drow possess the instrinsic capacity for elven high magic, even though no examples exist to confirm this.
Elven high magic is fundamentally based on profound connections between nature, the Weave, and their interactions.
...
I think drow can't use high magic; if they could then we would have seen them use it (especially against other drow). But I also think they wouldn't need it to construct mythals.
IMO, High Magic requires a specific connection to magic (the Weave), and it's intricate enough that one may lose ability to use High Magic, but still be a normal elf and archmage (like Mythanthar). The drow are demonstrably different from surface elves as magical creatures. Much like a dragon could not use High Magic and an elf could not use dragon-magic.
Of course, this comparison may mean that drow as a different kind of highly magical creatures, are potentially capable of devising forms of magic use that would fit specifically them... and may include yet another unique path to advanced magic?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which makes sense, if you consider High Magic to be a gift from the Seldarine.
Aye, but... hishna was a gift to Mazticans from Zaltec. After which, pluma was a gift to Mazticans from Qotal. Neither, interestingly enough, have any prerequisites, including "alignment" and "patron deity". They merely are optimal for different tasks, while appealing to - and encouraging - different attitudes. So... I won't assume anything not written plainly in such matters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls?
See also: "Dracorage Mythal". That was circa -25k DR by GHotR. Even not counting that, elves had a lot of such toys back before they deigned to notice humans at all, let alone teach early Netherese the first cantrips.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My point was maybe they just don't know how. Or maybe due to their untrusting nature it is extremely difficult for a group of drow to link as needed (though if Red Wizards can form a circle, so can drow in my book);
The former is unlikely, due to the scale of Descent and powerful magic obviously being an extremely valuable resource before they adapted - not on "keep in a locked coffer, will ya?" level, but on "backup again!!!" level. The latter is irrelevant for Rituals of Solitude.
Both Pluma magic and dragon magic can be learned by others given the correct circumstances. Similarly, the drow priests of Vhaerun work a high magic spell given knowledge of it and proper resources (the stolen souls). I think EVERYONE is connected to the weave equally - it is by definition the web of all life on Toril. The big difference between everyone and elves is that the elves are more attuned to this connection. This makes it simpler and more common for elves to do, but not impossible for others.
We already know that non-elven chosen can work high magic (though all of them described as doing so have had a trace of elven ancestry). They also have a more open connection to the weave.
Further, the whole idea behind the alternative solo school of High Magic is that the ritual performed enhances this connection by coupling it with a planar creature. This would suggest to me that these planar creatures have the ability to use high magic as well.
I contend that given the proper insights others could use high magic, though it would be an extraordinary accomplishment.
As far as when elves first used high magic - the ritual performed to come to Toril (in EC's Evermeet) was High Magic. They formed a circle and risked their lives in the attempt but it succeeded. (This confirms that elves other than High Mages CAN use high magic - in the book it was priests, mages, and 'rogues' - at extreme risk, if they know how. High Magic having become more dangerous, rituals have gotten more and more rare and secretive so common elves do not have the requisite knowledge any more. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 17:16:17
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Ha, of course all non-elven Chosen in the Realms have at least a distant trace of elven blood in their ancestry. If not an actual elven taint then at the very least a healthy drop of uncertainty.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mythals
