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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 14:59:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
After re-thinking the whole "Pyramid of Giza"-thing, I think it would be safe to include Ioulaum (or Karsus) Enclave. There are several pyramids, but the main one at Giza is included due to it's size. As Gray pointed out, that Enclave (whichever one it is, I still need to look) was much larger than the others. Do y'all think that would give good reason?
The Karsus Enclave was considered both the largest and greatest of all the floating cities of fallen Netheril.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rivalen
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 15:05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
After re-thinking the whole "Pyramid of Giza"-thing, I think it would be safe to include Ioulaum (or Karsus) Enclave. There are several pyramids, but the main one at Giza is included due to it's size. As Gray pointed out, that Enclave (whichever one it is, I still need to look) was much larger than the others. Do y'all think that would give good reason?
The Karsus Enclave was considered both the largest and greatest of all the floating cities of fallen Netheril.
A pity that there are no paintings or pictures of Karse Enclave to prove the enclave as the greatest of all the Netherese Enclaves. |
Fight to win, but donlt fight too long or for glorious tales. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 15:13:14
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True.
But then the Netheril boxed set tells us that the Karsus Enclave was usually considered the "greatest" of all the floating cities... even Ioulaum -- the fabled First Enclave.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 16:50:09
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Why, thankee-sai, Sage! Saved me some digging, ye did! 
So, here's the Seven as it stands:
Undermountain
Spirit Soaring
The Moonbridge
The Stone Bridge
The Dragonwall
The Wailing Dwarf
Karsus Enclave
How's it look? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 19:02:34
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Not bad! A very nice list!
Although, the thought just struck me. If the Library of Alexandria was on the list of Earth's Ancient Wonders, perhaps the Library of Candlekeep would be a contender for our list.
Maybe it wouldn't qualify since it is still running and in operation.
But I think it is pretty wondeful to say the least.  |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 19:37:08
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DOH!  Boy, I sure hope Alaundo doesn't see that little oversight! 
How about we substitute Candlekeep for Spirit Soaring? (Especially since there was some question as to how Spirit Soaring was created i.e. mortal vs. divine)
EDIT - Okay, upon looking it was the Lighthouse at Alexandria, not the library. But, I would like to keep Candlekeep on the list anyways! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
Edited by - Melfius on 02 Aug 2005 19:41:31 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 21:33:37
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Chasoline in Halruaa.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84390.jpg
The Ruins of Chasolné
A bizarre remnant of a civilization that predates the arrival of the Netherese, Chasolné lies on the coast of the Great Sea at the southern tip of the East Wall, close to the Bay of Pirates and Yaulazna. Two stone heads with exaggerated features have been carved out of the cliffs that border the ocean here, rising more than 500 feet above the water. Almost caricatures of human heads, these images stare out toward the ocean, flanking an open space in which a winding, narrow staircase leads up the side of the cliff from a narrow strip of sandy beach. Cut directly into the rock, the stairs ascend for more than a quarter-mile above sea level to a well-hidden outcropping that also faces the sea.
Atop this rocky ledge are some crumbled and tumbling ruins, plus a large stone table -- possibly an altar -- carved with bizarre sea life and odd-looking ocean vessels. Flanking this table are two wide, shallow, stone bowls, their interiors blackened from oil fires. Set back into the cliff face to the rear of the outcropping are two sets of columns that flank the mouth of a tunnel, which opens into a large, high-domed chamber with no other apparent exits. More than a few adventurers have visited this site in hopes of discovering more about the area and finding any hidden treasures that might lie inside.
Shining South Excerpt: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001b&page=4 |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 21:46:50
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I nominate.....
1: The Host-tower of the Arcane. It's pretty impressive, especially if you look at it in the Forgotten Realms Atlas and see how tall/big it really is.
2: If we are restricting ourselves to items that have visible remnants what about the Enclave of Shade?
3: I second the notion of that canal that is being dug in the upcoming series. About time!
4: The Herald's Holdfast.
I'll try to think of some more. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 21:49:29
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What about Deep Imaskar?
Or some of the Sunken Netherese undersea cities? |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 22:13:23
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Just to name few:
Alghairon's tower
Netheril
Moonbridge in Silverymoon
Mithralhall(if you count it as a wonder, at least it's very big)
The Host Tower of Arcane, in Luskan(is the name correct?)
Undermountain
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 23:13:21
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Okay, let's look at some of these wonderful suggestions! Please bear in mind that this is just my thinking on them. I would be more than happy to discuss them further if I am missing some crucial fact!
DDH has suggested Chasolné. I love the pic! I am hesitant to add it to the list, however, as it seems (to me, anyway) that the Wailing Dwarf would (pardon the pun) dwarf this creation.
RAKKIR has alot of great ideas, as well. Once the Watercourse Trilogy is out (and said canal is finished) it will most definitely make the list. Unless some deity decides to muddle into it of course! 
The Host-Tower and the Herald's Holdfast, while impressive for their architecture, really are no more than that - great architecture.
Shade, unfortunately, is really no different than your run-of-the-mill Enclave, with the exception that it still is in use. When compared to Karsus Enclave, it seems minor. Ditto for other Enclaves. I would just stick with Karsus Enclave.
I actually was considering Deep Imaskar, but then it occurred to me - no one really knows about it yet.
ode904 - Mithril Hall and Aghairon's Tower both fall under the same heading as the Host-Tower and Hearld's Holdfast (or the Ivy Mansion).
Folks, these are some great ideas! Please don't think I am just shooting things down out of hand. If you disagree, please tell me where and why. I am just offering my thoughts, and they have been wrong on many occasion!
Keep 'em coming, please! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
Edited by - Melfius on 02 Aug 2005 23:32:53 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 01:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
I actually was considering Deep Imaskar, but then it occurred to me - no one really knows about it yet.
Deep Imaskar should definitely be worthy of consideration regardless of how little most people in the Realms know about it. Both its creation and the end result would at the very least mark it as something "above-the-norm" for the Realms... so I'd place it on the "possible" list of man-made wonders.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 01:51:31
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| So noted, oh Sage! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 03:18:55
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| I'd like to use somewheres like the Elven Court, but what I want to make sure of is that it stands out above the rest in some way. If it is to be the Eleven Court, what about it makes it grander, more wonderful, than any other elven settlement/city? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 10:19:20
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| Remember my fellow sages that a WONDER should be something awestriking in size or beauty, it should be unique and irreplacable. We need to consider the requirements for a wonder. Many architectural structures are impressing and beautiful, but they are simply not as special as to be considered a WONDER. Think of the likes of the great pyramids and the great wall of China, or the likes of them... Realy unique and impressing in all aspects. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 13:09:52
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Melfius, I don't think too many people in Faerun have heard about the splendor of the Karsus Enclave (isn't it 'Jiksidur' in LEoF?). But that applies only if we use the phrase "most people must know about it" as a qualifying method.
Personally I would like to add Myth Lharast to this list, as there are legends about it in Amn and Tethyr.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 15:18:34
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I still stand by the Hosttower of the Arcane
There reallyl hasn't been a single picture of it (to my knowledge, though Volo's Guide to the North MIGHT have it.) outside of the Forgotten Realms Atlas. If you see it in the FR atlas you realize how big it is! It's freaking huge.....hundreds and hundreds of feet tall shaped like a giant tree with one main trunk then four spindly branches. It's obvious titanic magic keeps it up otherwise it would collapse under it's own weight. Remember, not all the wonders of the ancient world had to be "super huge" to qualify. MOST were pretty large, but some (hanging gardens/Temple of Zeus) were not necessarily huge. They were just stunning specimens of architecture/engineering or the thing people just marveled at.
And the reason I nominated the Herald's Holdfast is it is a place of knowledge that people make trips to see. Just like the Library of Alexandria. Of course, Candlekeep would probably be a more appropriate example of this. |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 15:27:46
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I want to take something off my list as I was thinking about this. I don't think Shade belongs on the list.
However, I don't think the Karsus enclave belongs on the list.
I think that should go to Iolioum's enclave. Which was the first.
Everything else was just a grander copy.
My reasoning is this:
The Empire State Building is one of the seven modern-wonders of the world.
Sure, since it's has been built a lot of "bigger" and "grander" buildings have been made, and it is no longer the tallest.
However, it -WAS- groundbreaking in it's day (even though several other buildings constructed at the same time were close.).
My point however is, that it was the FIRST. Even though "bigger and better" copies came along later, it was the FIRST. That's why it stands out.
Hence, this is why I think Iolioum's enclave should stand above the Karsus enclave. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2005 : 16:30:51
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| The fact is just that it isnt a WONDER if it is easily copied or if there is hundreds of examples of structures like it or even some more marveleous around the world. This is the modern thesarus explanation of the word WONDER: "marvel, miracle, nonpareil, oddity, phenomenon, portent, prodigy, rara avis, rarity, sensation, sight, spectacle, stunner, wonderment"... These just dont aply if it is a sight seen daily. The WONDER have to be a stand alone achievement of architecture. You have to lose your breath when you see it and you have to marvel at the beauty or complexity of it. There werent build hundreds of great pyramids because it took to much to create them and the library of Alexandria werent copied because it was of so vast proportions that it would be impossible to collect so much knowledge elsewhere, at that time... I hope you can understand my point. It realy have to be something special to be a WONDER... Or else the word will lose its meaning. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 00:15:19
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Okay, let's keep this going! Here's an updated list:
Undermountain
Candlekeep
Cormanthyr
Deep Imaskar
The Dragonwall
The Wailing Dwarf
Ioulaum Enclave
Wow. These are really looking great!
Any last-minute suggestions? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 02:13:51
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| You forgot the Moon Bridge. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 02:21:12
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| Well, I am trying to keep this down to seven, and I thought these were more impressive. No? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 02:35:27
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For the minor-listing of man-made wonders... I'd also consider the Raurin city of Bhaulin -- the Drowned City. It's believed to be over four thousand years old and the ruins are quite extensive. Bhaulin is one of the last strongholds of the ancient Imaskar Empire.
See The Horde boxed set for more information.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 05 Aug 2005 02:36:55 |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 10:14:51
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| A ruin c can, in mt mind, only be a wonder if the structure stood as a WONDER before its destruction. Simply because it is a vast and fascinating ruin doesnt make it a wonder. It would remove some of the glory in the concept of a wonder if a ruin could qualify simply because it is a ruin... I would like to hear if there is more to the Raurin city of Bhaulin besides it being a ruin. What was it like before its destruction? |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 14:15:45
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Remember, I only said a MINOR wonder.
quote:
Originally posted by Faramicos
A ruin c can, in mt mind, only be a wonder if the structure stood as a WONDER before its destruction. Simply because it is a vast and fascinating ruin doesnt make it a wonder.
I disagree. The ruins of Bhaulin, unlike most of the ruinous places in the Realms, are remarkably well-preserved. These ruins have likely provided centuries of wonder and amazement for the many generations of people who have inhabited the region.
And let's not forget that this was once a great stronghold of the Imaskari -- that in itself should suggest that the ruins warrant some serious consideration.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 15:29:38
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| Just a minor correction here: it was the Lighthouse of Alexandria, not the Library, that is on our 'real-world' list. Sorry! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 15:30:31
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| Okay, maybe I should open a poll at this point and see how everyone votes. What do you think? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 15:40:22
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| Good idea with the poll. Good to see what people think... About the ruins, my oppinion is that to qualify for the title of WONDER the structure had to qualify when it was complete and unharmed. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 18:40:15
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| Well, let's think about this. Would the ancient Egyptians have thought that their Giza pyramid was a wonder? Or would they have just thought, "Eh, we're pretty good at this pyramid-building thing. Let's make one bigger." |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Man-made wonders of the Realms
