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Sariss Eldariss
Acolyte
Lesotho
11 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 21:25:28
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Well met everyone,
I was busy on the Paladins and Slaves forum and have a related topic for your consideration. Should paladins be allowed to perform mercy Killings? For example a fort is about to be overun by the enemy and the only female member of the garrison asks that the paladin kill her so that the enemy may not capture her and defile her? Will it be alright for the paladin to do this? He would be saving her from torture and far worse, yet does anything justify taking a life in cold blood?
Until next,
Sariss Eldariss.
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 21:38:19
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If she is ASKING for it yeah, if he decides it's best without her consent then no. In a situation where the person is unconscious or unable to make the decision, I would say it would depend on the religious bent of the Paladin in question.
In any event, the right and wrong of it would depend on the Paladin in question and the reasons they did what they did. Course if they are overrun and about to die, retaining Paladin abilities for the future is kinda moot... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 21:39:34
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This to me is a simple thing to answer.
No the Paladin can not kill her. He might and often would provide a way for her to kill herself with the instruction not to do so until the Paladin falls and is most likely dead.
The choice would have to be left in the hands of the female in my view.
Some Paladins because of code might not even provide female with a way for female to kill herself. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 21:40:51
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I would say that yes, it is okay for a paladin to kill her.
However, my views of paladin's may be slightly skewed. It is my view that "lawful good" paladins follow the laws of their God. What differentiates a Paladin from something like a Blackguard/Anti-Paladin/Holy-Warrior of an evil diety is that the paladin's god is good. However, I think a Paladin shows unwavering devotion to his god, and his god's edicts. Obviously this means that a Paladin's "laws" trump local laws and customs. Furthermore, I think that they also may differ greatly from what most people of modern, western, Judea/Christian based culture think is "good."
For instance, I think if a Paladin of Torm gets a missive from his god to "clear out the orcs in a cave" and they wade into the cave and slaughter every last orc...women and children and all, they are not necessarily doing evil...however I think you are coming REALLY close here. I would however think that Torm might be a little more selective in his instructions/dogma so the Paladin might give the chance for surrender first. I suppose it really comes down to how "inherently evil" a race is I suppose.
Another example might be something akin to the real-world example of the crusades. I can well envision a situation where a god tells his followers to "recapture the holy city" even though it means beings in the holy city (who are not inherently evil) will be killed.
But, anwyays, I'm straying from the topic at hand. Yes, I think mercy killings are compltely okay. Even if they are those of an enemy. I can see a paladin being allowed to slay a fallen enemy (one who is badly wounded) out of mercy, even -if- the Paladin has healing resources at hand.
It's just not my belief that paladin's have to be "turn the other cheek" characters based upon modern wester values (freedom of speech/religion, sanctity of all life, equality of all cultures, show no bias, etc...) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 21:42:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Course if they are overrun and about to die, retaining Paladin abilities for the future is kinda moot...
*LOL* In RL this is true however death can be a very temporay thing in the game and falling at the moment just before death could effect what plane your soul goes to. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 21:44:51
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| Well the heart of the question at hand is good and evil, what is and isn't... Typically we see Paladins as paradigms of the "Good" when the FR setting may set them up as living ideals of their diety. IE: A Paladin devoted to Tempus would handle it differently than a Paladin of Sune. I could see the Tempus follower as accustomed or acclimated to the harshness of war and the hard job of things like triage and so forth whereas a paladin of Sune might not be capable of it.(Or their diety would not condone the same things.) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Well the heart of the question at hand is good and evil, what is and isn't...
Is it evil to kill an inocent without knowing her future?
The fact that it is reported the the evil attacking force of ,foo. often rape female captives does not mean this will occur this time. Killing a good person before a posible evil might happen to them can not be a good thing. Perhaps the female has red hair that the attackers venerate and she will be treated better by them then by the Paladin.
The Paladians job is to smite evil and defend/protect the innocents, along with a few other jobs. I can not see a Paladin being allowed by code to act for an unknown futue and am hard pressed to be convinced a Paladin would kill an inocent to prevent the raiders from doing evil things to her as a means of combating Evil. (less evil in the world be cause I killed a good person to prevent 2 or more evil acts of rape that might happen). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:06:02
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Well, I think the question was in dealing with the absolutes of the situation. Assuming that they were hopelessly lost to an overwhelming force that WILL torture and/or rape her AND she is asking for it.
If there is a way out, no, he wouldn't, even if it meant his life to slow them. If there is a doubt or she could be hidden under piles of dead or something, no he wouldn't.
There are many mitigating factors, and again I think it would come down to the diety and code the Paladin served.
The corollary question here is, What if it was not a woman but a man injured grievously? What if the enemy were cannibals who were known to eat their captives live?
Basically, is your answer predicated on the "victim" being female or on the fact that you believe a mercy-killing isn't in the makeup of a Paladin on any level? |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:13:47
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Yes, I very much agree with Forge's view on things.
And before you read the rest of tmy post PLEASE don't take this as me pushing my religion on others.
I'll be very honest. I'm a Christian Gentleman (though I suppose the "gentleman" part is debatable.  ) and try to follow the commandments and the teaching of Jesus. If I knew God told me to "Kill everyone in THAT building over there" I'd do it without hesitation or asking twice. Mainly because God told me to do it, and despite my intepretations of what constitutes "good and evil" he is my God...and being devout, I figure he knows far more about the situation than I do.
Please note, I'm not saying that I'd necessarily enjoy it, or that "if I heard a voice telling me to kill" I'd do it. If I heard "a voice" I'd probably think I'd become psychotic and seek help because I know that, in general, killing is against God's teachings.
However, in the AD&D world a Paladin's interactions with their god are more direct and less open to interpretation than mine our with my God. For instance, my God hasn't granted me any spells or sent down an Avatar in the last 2005 years. I daresay that once you can manifest spells and what not (as a paladin can) it rules out any questions of psychosis.
How about this.....What if a Paladin's god did something like the Bible stories...where he told a Paladin to "Sacrifice your firstborn son to me" as a test of devotion? To see if the Paladin would do it even though the God (at the last minute and without the paladin's knowledge) intended to call it off at the last moment? Except, in this case you can substitute "firstborn son" to something else.
Taking it a step farther.....one thing I think about is how different God appears in the Old and New Testatment (once more my views, not pushing on anybody). A Paladin of the Old Testament God might get the instruction of "kill all the children in that town." After all, something similiar happened (at least according to the Bible) to Egypt when Pharoah messed with Moses.
Just my take on the situation. I just like to see Paladin's as more complex that cookie-cutter charactures of goody-two-shoes, Greenpeace, "love everybody" types. |
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Sariss Eldariss
Acolyte
Lesotho
11 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:23:16
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Well again,
Thanks for all the input my fellow posters. (Is that correct? Posters). Lets use a different example if the paladin and his party are escaping a blackguards castle after succesfully rescuing the princess, just before they reach the exit one of the party members is crippled by a trap and cannot go on, if the party were to try and carry him they would probably be caught by their persuers, the party member ask the party to go on without him. Is it alright for the paladin to leave the man behind? What if he was wounded really badly and was in agony would it be alright for the paladin to take his life in order to ease the pain? What if he asked the paladin to do so?
Until next,
Sariss |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
Basically, is your answer predicated on the "victim" being female or on the fact that you believe a mercy-killing isn't in the makeup of a Paladin on any level?
Heck no, not based on female is my answer. I can not picture a Paladin every doing a mercy killing even if it was a gravely injuried companion because of unknown, though likely future. Killing good to stop evil tends to be very much against the code of most Paladins.
I will go even further, the Paladin has capture an evil orc leader (whom may or may not be injureid) to bring in for trail and justice. A rivil orc tribe wants the orc leader and the orc leader begs for a mercy killing, because even if Justice of Paladin will result in death (after trail) the justice of the other orc tribe assures a slow and painful death. Tjis last of course goes to the law part of the equation as the Paladin would perfer that the evil orc had died resisting arrest.
The duty is to the church/religion that values good conduct and lawful conduct.
Good conduct you do not kill inocents.
Lawful conduct you do not kill captives.
Of course that is a general Paladin view, the specific deity (as you already noted) can have different focus that provides some flexiblity as to killing captives, however killing an inocent for any reason I can not see being permitted. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:34:49
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quote:
Lawful conduct you do not kill captives.
I quite disagree. If you live in Thay for example, then killing captives could be a way of life and VERY lawful. It would be evil, but not unlawful.
Again, we are speaking in shades of morality rather than in terms of religion. Also bear in mind that as indicated above, Lawful can vary greatly, and "good" can be in the mind of the Paladin.
Another view, what about a situation where the killing didn't involve another humanoid, but say, a horse? What if said horse was the Paladin't Mount? Would he kill the loyal steed to keep it from being captured and torn apart by ravening undead? Or would he stay and fight and die alongside it? Would it change if he had an innocent in tow?
Again, shades of morality that are not easily answered. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Sariss Eldariss
Well again,
Thanks for all the input my fellow posters. (Is that correct? Posters). Lets use a different example if the paladin and his party are escaping a blackguards castle after succesfully rescuing the princess, just before they reach the exit one of the party members is crippled by a trap and cannot go on, if the party were to try and carry him they would probably be caught by their persuers, the party member ask the party to go on without him. Is it alright for the paladin to leave the man behind? What if he was wounded really badly and was in agony would it be alright for the paladin to take his life in order to ease the pain? What if he asked the paladin to do so?
Until next,
Sariss
A Paladin is often the first one in and the last to leave.
Leave no man behind, except dead evil ones. *wink*
There can be justification for leaving an injuried people behind for the greater good of the rest.
"hold them as long as you can and I will get the Prince to safety" type thing.
The actual killing to put out of pain or prevent what limited defense an injuried compainion I believe would not be permitted by most deities that empower Paladins in the first place.
As of now I can not picture any situation of a mercy killing being permitted without falling. Perhaps some of you might be able to change my view. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 22:51:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
quote:
Lawful conduct you do not kill captives.
I quite disagree. If you live in Thay for example, then killing captives could be a way of life and VERY lawful. It would be evil, but not unlawful.
We are not talking the laws of Thay or Zent, we are talking laws of the game system and Paladin code. With was certainly mentioned in the owning slaves thread not that long ago.
quote:
Again, we are speaking in shades of morality rather than in terms of religion. Also bear in mind that as indicated above, Lawful can vary greatly, and "good" can be in the mind of the Paladin.
Actually we are talking about a game religion that defines what good is and what lawful is and how any LG is expected to act, with the added Paladin code that has greater restrictions because of a fantsay archtype. quote:
Another view, what about a situation where the killing didn't involve another humanoid, but say, a horse? What if said horse was the Paladin't Mount? Would he kill the loyal steed to keep it from being captured and torn apart by ravening undead? Or would he stay and fight and die alongside it? Would it change if he had an innocent in tow?
A Paladin might sacarfice his mount for the greater good, under 3.5 rules it was a summoned magical animal. Under even older rules I do believe if the situation warented it the Paladin would still kill his mount to save huminoid life he is charged with protecting.
As far as it goes a Paladin might charge the mount to carry the innocent as he fought the rearguard action. In general the Paladin (hero figure) fights as long as any are in danger. This does not mean he will not reteat, just the retreat will be organizied.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 00:38:31
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quote:
We are not talking the laws of Thay or Zent, we are talking laws of the game system and Paladin code. With was certainly mentioned in the owning slaves thread not that long ago.
quote:
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Again, we are speaking in shades of morality rather than in terms of religion. Also bear in mind that as indicated above, Lawful can vary greatly, and "good" can be in the mind of the Paladin.
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Actually we are talking about a game religion that defines what good is and what lawful is and how any LG is expected to act, with the added Paladin code that has greater restrictions because of a fantsay archtype.
Ah but the previous poster WAS justifying their commentary on the alignment restrictions of a Paladin. Based on the PHb, Lawful is simply a law-abiding person rather than one who bases their lives on individual codes. If you want to go into a Paladin's Code, you are going off the books into an area that is not defined. (Unless you want to go off of AD&D Cavalier which isn't presented in 3.X.)
The thing is, a "Paladin's Code" will change based on their upbringing and diety. (An Uthgard-raised Paladin would have vastly different perspectives than a Waterdeep dandy serving Waukeen.)I could well see a Paladin of Lathander viewing a mercy killing as a part of "rebirth and renewal" or a Malarite seeing it as a "winnowing of the weak". |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 02:43:55
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I don't think there is an absolute answer on this. I would think it would hinge on the rules of the paladin's faith.
If suicide is not against the rules, then assisted suicide or mercy killing would probably be okay.
If the god values life above all things and forbids such actions, then the paladin would be committing a sin. Depending upon how badly he offended his god, an attonement might (or might not) put him right again with his deity.
Such rules are for the religious scholars of the paladin's faith to debate. A DM should provide pointers about the finer points of a deity's dogma.
In game terms, I think the character has to follow his own convictions, and the DM can help him out by letting him know if his deity would have any problem with such acts or not. |
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Never
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 04:04:32
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1. Depends on the paladin
2. Depends on the deity the paladin worships.
Which is the answer to all these 'Would a paladin do X?' questions.
However, lets look at the situation a bit more closely. This woman is part of the garrison; it's part of her duty to defend the keep. One less fighter might not sound like it would matter but is that the paladin's decision to make or that of the Captain of the garrison? In addition, how likely is it that she's going to be raped? In the heat of battle, is an orc going to shout, "This one's female!" and try to carry her off? Most likely, he (because orcs are always male) isn't going to notice or will be more concerned with her weapon than curves.
What about morale? "Where'd Mary go? Oh, I lopped her head off. I mean, we're all going to *die* so I thought I'd spare her the humiliation of being violated afterwards. Oh, ah, fight with all your might and all that. What me to say any last rites while I'm at it?"
Besides, why can't she do it herself or die heroically in battle, trying to take down as many of the enemy as she can?
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I'm so, so very guilty for no reason or rhyme;
Infinite victims, infinitesimal time. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 08:03:54
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I think mercy killing is OK if man asks it and really needs it. But the 'rules' told in Thornhold are good in my opinion |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 08:05:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Never
1. Depends on the paladin
2. Depends on the deity the paladin worships.
And yes, first must think about that. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 11:53:14
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| In general, regardless of deity and personality, yes. He can perform mercy killing. As long as it is requested by the person and not sanctioned by the paladins own feelings and motivations. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 12:12:52
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| I think it is a sin for the paladin to do that as that will go against their creed. If the paladin is asked by a critically wounded comrade to end his life before the enemy takes him, I think thats alright. But what this topic on paladin killing a female member just because she does not want to be taken the enemy is...well unthinkable for the paladin. As the paladin not only be committing a sin against his religious beliefs, he is also denying that lady an opportunity to fight and live or fight and die gloriously. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 13:59:35
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quote:
I think it is a sin for the paladin to do that as that will go against their creed.
What creed? There is no such creed or code listed in any of the books that I've read. I understand that the underlying tenets are most likely that of chivalry, but that doesn't HAVE to apply. Now, there is a reference to an oath they swear as an Aspirant, but it isn't delineated in the text and would vary from Order to Order.
I think there are a lot of beliefs about Paladins based on personal opinions of what they OUGHT to be rather than what they are truely based upon. We aren't talking Sturm Brightblades here, we're talking PHb and FR setting, there are a LOT of variables that get entered.
Now I sat down and re-read the Paladin in the PHb and that combined with references in FRCS leads me to the conclusion that according to canon it would perhaps be permissable. If there is some sourcebook I'm missing here, please let me know cause I've been pondering a rather unorthodoxed Paladin build for a while now and would like to make sure I have all the facts. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Forge
What creed? There is no such creed or code listed in any of the books that I've read. I understand that the underlying tenets are most likely that of chivalry, but that doesn't HAVE to apply. Now, there is a reference to an oath they swear as an Aspirant, but it isn't delineated in the text and would vary from Order to Order.
I think there are a lot of beliefs about Paladins based on personal opinions of what they OUGHT to be rather than what they are truely based upon. We aren't talking Sturm Brightblades here, we're talking PHb and FR setting, there are a LOT of variables that get entered.
Now I sat down and re-read the Paladin in the PHb and that combined with references in FRCS leads me to the conclusion that according to canon it would perhaps be permissable. If there is some sourcebook I'm missing here, please let me know cause I've been pondering a rather unorthodoxed Paladin build for a while now and would like to make sure I have all the facts.
Hmm, very well, then, perhaps I had made a mistake in my reply. my apologies, since I lack the FR paladin's materials. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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DeathRage
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
What creed? There is no such creed or code listed in any of the books that I've read. I understand that the underlying tenets are most likely that of chivalry, but that doesn't HAVE to apply. Now, there is a reference to an oath they swear as an Aspirant, but it isn't delineated in the text and would vary from Order to Order.
I think there are a lot of beliefs about Paladins based on personal opinions of what they OUGHT to be rather than what they are truely based upon. We aren't talking Sturm Brightblades here, we're talking PHb and FR setting, there are a LOT of variables that get entered.
Now I sat down and re-read the Paladin in the PHb and that combined with references in FRCS leads me to the conclusion that according to canon it would perhaps be permissable. If there is some sourcebook I'm missing here, please let me know cause I've been pondering a rather unorthodoxed Paladin build for a while now and would like to make sure I have all the facts.
Hmm, very well, then, perhaps I had made a mistake in my reply. my apologies, since I lack the FR paladin's materials.
There is no need to apologise anyway, for you are just stating your view and opinion on the topic like everybody, and this forum board is a free discussion forum so I think opinions on this topic even not official according to FR lore should be alright anyway. |
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be |
Edited by - DeathRage on 21 Jul 2005 14:33:02 |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:30:40
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quote:
Hmm, very well, then, perhaps I had made a mistake in my reply. my apologies, since I lack the FR paladin's materials.
No apologies needed friend, we are all pilgrims on the same road of knowledge here.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:31:57
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| I will only comment on how I personally play a paladin, he would not even consider killing the woman, in fact, he would die fighting to protect her. He would try to carry his injured companion to safety, even if it meant he would likely be captured or killed. I play a paladin of Sune, as well as a paladin of Clangeddin Silverbeard, they each have drastically different moral codes, but they agree in these particular instances, because I feel they involve two of the basic principles of being a paladin: 1. Protect the innocent 2. Remain loyal to your companions. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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DeathRage
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I will only comment on how I personally play a paladin, he would not even consider killing the woman, in fact, he would die fighting to protect her. He would try to carry his injured companion to safety, even if it meant he would likely be captured or killed. I play a paladin of Sune, as well as a paladin of Clangeddin Silverbeard, they each have drastically different moral codes, but they agree in these particular instances, because I feel they involve two of the basic principles of being a paladin: 1. Protect the innocent 2. Remain loyal to your companions.
I like that, it is heroic. |
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 14:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathRage
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I will only comment on how I personally play a paladin, he would not even consider killing the woman, in fact, he would die fighting to protect her. He would try to carry his injured companion to safety, even if it meant he would likely be captured or killed. I play a paladin of Sune, as well as a paladin of Clangeddin Silverbeard, they each have drastically different moral codes, but they agree in these particular instances, because I feel they involve two of the basic principles of being a paladin: 1. Protect the innocent 2. Remain loyal to your companions.
I like that, it is heroic.
I think a paladin should be heroic, they aren't mercenaries, they're champions of goodness. Without the moral code, you're just a fighter with some divine abilities. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
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Edited by - Xysma on 21 Jul 2005 14:48:42 |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 15:07:22
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quote:
I think a paladin should be heroic, they aren't mercenaries, they're champions of goodness. Without the moral code, you're just a fighter with some divine abilities.
I will agree with this to a limited extent. The problem is, Paladins serve a divine power, and each of the divine powers in Faerun lends a certain flavor to their respective followers.
Example: The aforementioned paladin of Clangedden would never leave a Dwarf behind... EVER... But an obnoxious human rogue might get left behind without a qualm.
I very much think that a "fighter with some divine abilities" IS what a Paladin is. He CAN be the knight in shining armor, but he can also be a scrappy, hard-bitten cynic. I refer to the "Pool Of Radiance" series, where Kern and Trooper are counterpoints of knightly virtue.
Also, you are again referring to "the moral code", but none of the folks who have espoused the existence of such a code have provided some kind of basis for where they find documentation of the existence of such a code. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 15:11:37
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Hm . . . all I can come up with here is that in the Real World, where its a lot more likely that a badly wounded person on a battlefield may not make it due to the fact that there is no heal spells or even raise dead spells, we still have a lot of debate over when and if such a thing is a good or a bad thing. I doubt that in the Realms it would be such a hard and fast thing for someone to say that it would be good for all or good for none.
The only requirements are really that a paladin be lawful good, and thus that they obey superiors, respect athority, and tend to like laws and codes to guide them, and that they put other before themselves, risk themselves on behalf of others, and strive to not commit evil acts. That gives a lot more lattitude than we sometimes realize.
A paladin of Lathander, as a champion of life, might never even consider it a possibility to aid in such a thing, whereas a paladin of Ilmater might find it the ultimate expression of his gods will to end the suffering of another when there is no other recourse.
But to also throw in this monkey wrench, as some of my fellow scribes have, with raise dead and ressurection and heal spells and the like, it seems like it would be much harder to determine when there is no hope left.
I think a lot of the "would a paladin do this" type questions are hard to field unless they have actually arisen from a situation in a game or a novel that can be properly analysed. In the real world you could ask, "would a priest eat a sandwich" and never seem to even have a moral coponent to it, but your answers would be, "If he is Catholic, yes, unless its meat, and its a Friday in lent, If he is Jewish, yes, unless its pork, etc."
My point is, examples tend to be more helpful the more specific that they are. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 15:21:26
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| On a slightly different note, a Paladin is well-described in a series that begins in "The War God's Own". I'm don't recall the author, but it can be found at www.Baen.com under the free library (Free Books YAY!). Oath of Swords is another book. These are NOT Forgotten Realms but are well-written and demonstrative of a Paladin and the demands of his God. |
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Paladins and mercy killing
