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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 20:35:24
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I have seen a few lists of books held in various libraries in Faerūn, including books written as recently as 1370 DR, and I have even written out some of the quotes from plays and books which have appeared as epigraphs in Ed's writings, but what are "the Classics" of Torilian literature -- the books with which every educated person is expected to be familiar? What are Toril's answers to the Iliad, Tao te ching, Euclid's Elements, Aristotle's Poetics, their 1000 Nights and a Night, Canterbury Tales and Paradise Lost, Epic of Gilgamesh, and so on? Since the Mazticans still have much of their literature intact, what are their "great books"? What's Kara-Tur's "five foot shelf"?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 22:52:47
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I don't know if there is any such list... Ed Greenwood would be the man to ask on this one, I think.
I can, at the least, offer up a list of books known to be at Candlekeep. The esteemed sage Steven Schend wrote this article a while back for the Wizards website. It is, at the least, a place to start.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 00:32:32
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Since there's no single Faerūnwide culture, this is going to vary a lot between urban centres of literacy where snobbish urban elites gather: Impiltur, Sembia, Cormyr, the Western Heartlands cities, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, etc. My feeling is that any such 'great books' lists would be more to do with academic and noble fashion than with actual worth, as much the subject of debate at revels than a sedimented 'truth'. Faerūn's polytheism, with its churches of individual gods, also works against the universal acceptance of any particular religious epic.
So I'm sure it's a complex question for Ed to answer, though an interesting one. |
Edited by - Faraer on 14 Jul 2005 00:33:09 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 00:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if there is any such list... Ed Greenwood would be the man to ask on this one, I think.
I can, at the least, offer up a list of books known to be at Candlekeep. The esteemed sage Steven Schend wrote this article a while back for the Wizards website. It is, at the least, a place to start.
Candlekeep Collection
Thanks, WR. That's one of the lists which I have seen, but there is no indication of the relative "greatness" of the book. One can't tell what's there by cultural acclaim and what's there simply because someone donated a copy or some librarian had a hobby s/he liked to read about. I shall ask Ed if others can't summon up some examples.
Re-reading the list, though (by title), I note that "Musings" seem to be a fashionable style in contemporary Faerūn. Are they like Japanese "pillow books"?
I would hazard a guess that the originals used by "Lhaeo of Shadowdale" for Translations from Kara-Tur Haiku are well-regarded (if not viewed strictly as "Classics") in the Orient.
Bestiary of Creatures Strange and Wonderful may have "classic of (un)natural philosophy" status since it is suspected to have been "penned by the Guild of Naturalists while in Myth Drannor." However it may be regarded as merely authoritative and not noted for excellence of style.
The prophecies of Alaundo the Seer should probably be regarded as a "classic" in Faerūn, even if they do not belong to a particular school or tradition of "Classical" literature.
Notes on the Tuigan, (c. 1353 by Lord Rayburton of Cormyr) is probably in the process of becoming a classic by reason of its authoritativeness and illustrations. If I recall correctly, it is the book which Azoun IV's bard consults when they are en route to Thesk.
I know that much Elven literature is a sort of "performance art" or "installation" rather than being a book, and that much of that has been taken down or was destroyed in the Crown Wars, but I haven't heard that Humans or Dwarves went in for anything but plain old writing. (I was reading The Ilithiad yesterday, and found that "four-level illithid qualith" citation on page 36 interesting. It seems to be an example of a language which a non-Illithid would only stumble through with Comprehend Languages, but which might have a rich literature could be approximated in humanoid languages. I hope that Bruce R. Cordell takes the time to grace us with some more examples of it some day.) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 01:07:21
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I just thought of another point that needs to be factored in, here: The printing press.
For a book to be a "classic", then it has to be something widely read. Yet, printing technology in the Realms isn't all that great. So they can't have large print runs, which means fewer people will read these books...
I think classics will thus vary from region to region, and only matter to nobles and those wealthy enough to have the money to buy the books and the leisure time to read them. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 01:49:17
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| The F&P Web Enhancement Leaves of Learning contains a whole page of Realms book names and their authors |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 02:07:10
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| Well, yes, the number of copies of a single book will be far less than when the printing press is used. However, remember how The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Illiad were spread through society. It doesn't have to be printed to be a classic -- to paraphase the movie Dark Crystal, books are just "words that stay." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 03:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Well, yes, the number of copies of a single book will be far less than when the printing press is used. However, remember how The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Illiad were spread through society. It doesn't have to be printed to be a classic -- to paraphase the movie Dark Crystal, books are just "words that stay."
Indeed, I was just thinking the same thing.
There are many "classic" tales in the Realms, especially in those regions with long and established histories. These realms undoubtedly have a extensive repertoire of verbal stories, songs, and other related pieces that each tell of a single aspect about a famous place or person. These "classics" would be similar in style, tone, and focus, to the Icelandic eddas -- tales of heroism and places of adventure. Verbal poems and other recitations can serve as an effective means of relaying classic stories... even if some story-tellers improvise and work to combine different tales to create a more comprehensive account. The end result may differ, but the essential message and meaning of the tale basically remains the same.
Also, do not discount the humble chapbook -
quote:
Re. the list commentary on Volo's Guides:
What you the gamer buy is an our-world compilation (that's where Elminster's comments come in...I, Ed of the Greenwood, make them into footnotes) of "chapbooks" published by Volo, and sold in the streets of Waterdeep and in shops of cities and trade-route settlements (Bargewright Inn, for example) throughout the Heartlands.
The chapbooks are several sheets of paper folded in half, and held together with two knots of waxed thread sewn through the folds...making them like very thin, poor-paper versions of the old D&D booklets. One would have to buy about forty of these (in numbered sets, published one a tenday like Dickens, when he was sold outside the pages of Strand Magazine) to assemble a single "Volo's Guide." The maps would be extra, and never in color. Us modern types get such perks.
Price of a single chapbook? Depends on scarcity, demand, location, and condition. For new but fairly scarce, say 1 sp, and go up or down from there....
I would imagine that, like Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanack in the colonies, chapbooks in the Realms range far and wide across entire areas of Faerun, collecting common tales, curious facts about places, astrological data, and other pieces of lore.
Chapbooks in the Relams would serve to generate a local interest in the wider community. They work to share stories with outsiders, and help locals to learn about what a place and people are like outside their city walls.
Many "classic" Realms stories have likely passed from one side of Faerun to another, with friends and relatives all keen to have their other friends and relatives read the next exciting work from this month's most prominent minstrel or writer.
Given that, bards themselves are another component that helps to foster the "classic" tales of the Realms. With each tavern and inn they pass through, a bard effectively adds to his collection of stories and songs. The wandering minstrel can then journey on, taking what he's learned from a specific location, and bringing it to another region of the Realms. In effect, another "classic" has passed beyond local borders and is now reaching out into the wider Realms... by the simple method of speech.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 07:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Well, yes, the number of copies of a single book will be far less than when the printing press is used. However, remember how The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Illiad were spread through society. It doesn't have to be printed to be a classic -- to paraphase the movie Dark Crystal, books are just "words that stay."
Indeed, I was just thinking the same thing.
There are many "classic" tales in the Realms, especially in those regions with long and established histories. These realms undoubtedly have a extensive repertoire of verbal stories, songs, and other related pieces that each tell of a single aspect about a famous place or person. These "classics" would be similar in style, tone, and focus, to the Icelandic eddas -- tales of heroism and places of adventure. Verbal poems and other recitations can serve as an effective means of relaying classic stories... even if some story-tellers improvise and work to combine different tales to create a more comprehensive account. The end result may differ, but the essential message and meaning of the tale basically remains the same.
Also, do not discount the humble chapbook -
(snip)
When I first read Ed's articles about the small presses of Waterdeep, I revised my opinion of Waterdeep to consider it not a Medieval city, but more like Renaissance Venice. Perhaps there is a budding Waterdhavian Aldus who will help to establish what the "Classics" will be by printing scholarly editions of certain select books. |
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 17:50:33
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Let us forget religious literature, for I think most members of a faith certainly at least try to get their hands on books written by the most prominent and famous priests of their religion. These would be regarded as classics within each faith.
The same would go, I assume, with the Tactics of the Purple Dragon by the Steel Regent Alusair, at least within Cormyr's (and its enemies') military forces.
I think the value of a book, or its reputation as a 'classic', depends much on the race, region, culture, organization(s) one belongs to, etcetera. Maybe it would be impossible to gather a comprehensive and proper list of 'The All-Time Greatest', except on the chapbooks? A commoner of Faerun would probably consider each at-least-moderately-skilled bard's tale or song to be a 'classic' for some time (=until the next bard comes along with an even more exciting tale). |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 23:20:17
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| I'm going to add this question at the end of Ed's scroll. He, more than others, would know what the chapbook publishers are putting out. Let's see what his take is.... |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Never
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 00:48:08
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I've always assumed that the books quoted at the beginning of chapters were 'classics.'
So, if I pick up 'The Temptations of...' then I'll get, The High History of Faerunian Archmages Mighty; Musings from a Lonely Tower in Athkatla; The Stormy Knight; Broderick Betrayed, Or, The Wizard Woeful; The Red Book of a Thayvian Mage; and To Rule a Realm, From Turret to Midden.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 02:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Never
I've always assumed that the books quoted at the beginning of chapters were 'classics.'
So, if I pick up 'The Temptations of...' then I'll get, The High History of Faerunian Archmages Mighty; Musings from a Lonely Tower in Athkatla; The Stormy Knight; Broderick Betrayed, Or, The Wizard Woeful; The Red Book of a Thayvian Mage; and To Rule a Realm, From Turret to Midden.
That was the assumption I also made. Those are the "epigraphs" from Ed Greenwood's books which I mentioned. |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2005 : 01:25:15
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You know, I don't think a dearth of printing presses would necessarily be a barrier to making many copies of a book in the Realms.
Scribes seem to be flourishing as a profession and no doubt can make hand copies of a book very quickly and en masse.
And then again, I wonder if there are magical implements to facilitate copying in the realms. I am thinking animated pens and quills. Or a spell to copy a page. Perhaps some sort of refined illusion spell could make it seem as if pages of a book had an exact copy of the text or map from another book.
You could even use magic to create streaming video or streaming text. It could have the benefit for sensitive information that the text disappears once read.
I am also thinking there might be specialized creatures you can summon or create to do your scribing for you. Imps and quasits and mephits might serve well in this capacity. A homunculus would also do nicely.
You know, the plane of the House of Knowledge would certainly have some sort of little planar creature you could summon and put to work copying books. Oghma and his crew in the Library of All Knowledge are sure to have created an appropriate scrivener spirit that is ideal for the purpose. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2005 : 05:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
You know, I don't think a dearth of printing presses would necessarily be a barrier to making many copies of a book in the Realms.
Ancient Rome had a flourishing publishing industry of scribes. Martial makes several references to the "publishing" of his books.
quote:
Scribes seem to be flourishing as a profession and no doubt can make hand copies of a book very quickly and en masse.
And then again, I wonder if there are magical implements to facilitate copying in the realms. I am thinking animated pens and quills. Or a spell to copy a page. Perhaps some sort of refined illusion spell could make it seem as if pages of a book had an exact copy of the text or map from another book.
I think I asked Ed (or did I?) about attitudes towards spells which magically replace living scribes. There are a couple of spells from "third party" publishers which allow pages to be magically memorized and subsequently magically scribed.
quote:
You could even use magic to create streaming video or streaming text. It could have the benefit for sensitive information that the text disappears once read.
There's a 3rd level Hishna spell from Maztica which records ten minutes of moving pictures. No info given in the spell description as to the artistic style the spell uses for its moving drawings. In the world of D20 it might be a function of the spellcaster's drawing ability.
quote:
I am also thinking there might be specialized creatures you can summon or create to do your scribing for you. Imps and quasits and mephits might serve well in this capacity. A homunculus would also do nicely.
You know, the plane of the House of Knowledge would certainly have some sort of little planar creature you could summon and put to work copying books. Oghma and his crew in the Library of All Knowledge are sure to have created an appropriate scrivener spirit that is ideal for the purpose.
The trouble with using malicious creatures as scribes harkens back to my query about language fluency when Tongues and Comprehend Languages are made Permanent: as some pointed out, neither spell necessarily makes allowances for dialectal usages and idioms; a malicious scribe bound to record accurately may "neglect" to clarify some idiomatic term, which could lead to disatrous misunderstandings. Think of the trouble the phrases "green-eyed monster" and "green with envy" could cause to someone who who understands "green" as a color and only as a color. "Here ya go, Master Dragon Hunter -- this spell is guaranteed to protect you from 'the green-eyed monster.'" |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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prototype00
Acolyte
48 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 15:20:26
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"Shocking Tales of Elven Lust" Ala Four from Cormyr, a book for the ages.
prototype00 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 23:03:21
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Not sure if thsi really applies...
One of the greatest Adventures I wrote (according to the players) was a bust on the THORN THEATRE in Calaunt. Essentially the players took on the realms equivalent of Shakespeare. He was a very high level bard, and had a troupe of greater Dopplegangers working for him, who were all stealing the Baron's identities.
The players caught on, and busted the theatre, burning the place down after the battle (What does a Barbarian Wemic care about plays?)
I used Maps of the globe theatre too make the Thorn theatre, and it is one of the toughest battles my players ever went through. Of Course the plays that this bard wrote (I cannot remeber his name now, I am not at home and don't have access to my old notes.. GOD I hope I saved it) were all rip offs of Shakepeare:
Two Gentlemen of Berdusk
Aencar (MacBeth)
Romeo and Juliett (Why change the name... set in Berdusk)
Alot of them are in my notes, but I know that one was of the campaign of an Early King Of Cormyr.
ANd one I had the summary of Julius Caesar but applied to the lords of waterdeep.
Lame I know but I had fun with it. And it made my English Minour so much more entertaining.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2005 : 08:49:39
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Re: printing presses - the Illiad and Oddessy were classics before most people knew how to read. They were originally chanted and or sung aloud, and folks memorized them whole... but onward.
A few works stand out in Faerunian history as culture-crossing influences down the ages. The Nether Scrolls come to mind. If the elves weren't still cringing with shame over the Crown Wars, one could imagine an Illiad of sorts coming out of that. One imagines there are classics ą la The Last Days of Pompeii about the fall of Myth Drannor and other historical calamaties, as well. |
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What are "the Classics" on Toril?
