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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 23:57:20
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So, it's no secret that I'm not a fan of 3e (just read the signature). Both mechanics and lore changes have driven me up several walls. However, there are a few things in it that I like more than 2e, and I'm trying to figure out how to move them back to 2e. Before I did all the brain-work, I thought I'd ask if anyone had done it before, and if so, how'd it work? How did you decide how many skill points characters got per level? And such things.
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 08:41:32
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our group(s) too adhere to 2e rules, or more exactly, "2e + the three players options books*". occasionally, when we find "good" rule-solutions in 3e, we absorb them in our game, but that always happens case by case, so thereīs no "conversion-system" i could describe to help you.
i highly recommend the three players options books to anyone still playing 2e, for it expands the possibilities of character developement a great deal without getting unbalancing (in most cases, anyway). itīs also easier to convert 3e rules to a players options- set of rules than to the basic 2e framework.
* "skills & powers" (which sets the basic framework of rules), "combat & tactics" and "spells & magic" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 11:22:28
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| Have you considered getting the book for flipping 2E to 3E, and working backwards from that? It can be downloaded from the WotC site. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 11:30:48
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Me myself don't play(..shortage of FG-fans who want to play..) but I have read a lot about RPG playing. Yes there are a bit differencies between those two, but I prefer 3e. Skill systems are more hmm..logical( ) in 3e. 2e made me a little confused, but the 3e worked with me well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 21:16:17
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| No, I hadn't thought of the 2e -> 3e book. That might be something to look into. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 23:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
No, I hadn't thought of the 2e -> 3e book. That might be something to look into.
At the least, it will give you some guidelines.
I just had to do a rather specific Google search to find the guide on the Wizards page (because their search engine was written by drunken tinker gnomes). But I was successful!
The 2E to 3E book can be downloaded from this page. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 05:22:02
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| Many thanks. Please go hunting those gnomes, Wooly. Such creatures should not be tinkering with anything, let alone webpages (bad enough they've infested wildspace!) :) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 09:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
So, it's no secret that I'm not a fan of 3e (just read the signature). Both mechanics and lore changes have driven me up several walls. However, there are a few things in it that I like more than 2e, and I'm trying to figure out how to move them back to 2e. Before I did all the brain-work, I thought I'd ask if anyone had done it before, and if so, how'd it work? How did you decide how many skill points characters got per level? And such things.
I decided today that I am probably going to decree that priests can no longer cast what were mage spells ("arcane" spells) in 2E unless they have wizard or sorcerer levels. The only real border between priests and wizards nowadays is that priests can Heal and turn undead, and wizards can't ... unless they take a couple of levels of cleric.
What I do like are the skills in 3E. I have spent a lot of time recently looking over 2E material for my campaign's background, and I am now shocked at the paucity of skills 2E characters had/have. ("Oh boy! In two more levels my magic-user with the 18 INT will have enough non-weapon proficiencies to learn how to start a fire without incinerating everything within a hundred yards! Twenty-five years old and genius intelligence, but he still hasn't figured out tinder and flint....")
Personally, I would allow people who are playing 2E nowadays to have extra proficiencies just so that if the character is ever converted to 3E the changeover will be easier, requiring less mangling of the PC. I do agree that back-tracking with the 2E=>3E conversion book is an excellent idea, but you'll discover that reconverted characters have more skills than 2E permits them. |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 19:30:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
What I do like are the skills in 3E. I have spent a lot of time recently looking over 2E material for my campaign's background, and I am now shocked at the paucity of skills 2E characters had/have. ("Oh boy! In two more levels my magic-user with the 18 INT will have enough non-weapon proficiencies to learn how to start a fire without incinerating everything within a hundred yards! Twenty-five years old and genius intelligence, but he still hasn't figured out tinder and flint....")
thatīs one of 2eīs weaker points, imho. i am generally more generous when it comes to "handing out" skills:
- character creation: when a player creates a new character, i usually give them a handful of proficiencies for free. the only condition is that they are rooted in the characters background story.
- during the game: one example of free proficiencies are books. when the party finds books(1) and characters decide to take the time to study them (not only a doing a quick perusal), i might give them the corresponding proficiency without them having to spend skillpoints (see "skills&powers"). after all, time between adventures is rare and when they decide to spend that precious time sitting down in a corner (cosy as it might be  ) while the others go having fun in taverns or being on personal missions (solo adventures) thatīs sacrifice enough.
(1) ...as part of treasure, or as a "lucky catch" in an old bookstore (i absolutely love the movie "The Ninth Gate", which features the kind of bookstore i usually portray in game)
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 22:01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
What I do like are the skills in 3E. I have spent a lot of time recently looking over 2E material for my campaign's background, and I am now shocked at the paucity of skills 2E characters had/have. ("Oh boy! In two more levels my magic-user with the 18 INT will have enough non-weapon proficiencies to learn how to start a fire without incinerating everything within a hundred yards! Twenty-five years old and genius intelligence, but he still hasn't figured out tinder and flint....")
thatīs one of 2eīs weaker points, imho. i am generally more generous when it comes to "handing out" skills:
- character creation: when a player creates a new character, i usually give them a handful of proficiencies for free. the only condition is that they are rooted in the characters background story.
- during the game: one example of free proficiencies are books. when the party finds books(1) and characters decide to take the time to study them (not only a doing a quick perusal), i might give them the corresponding proficiency without them having to spend skillpoints (see "skills&powers"). after all, time between adventures is rare and when they decide to spend that precious time sitting down in a corner (cosy as it might be ) while the others go having fun in taverns or being on personal missions (solo adventures) thatīs sacrifice enough.
(1) ...as part of treasure, or as a "lucky catch" in an old bookstore (i absolutely love the movie "The Ninth Gate", which features the kind of bookstore i usually portray in game)
Good DMing! |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2005 : 21:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
our group(s) too adhere to 2e rules, or more exactly, "2e + the three players options books*".
* "skills & powers" (which sets the basic framework of rules), "combat & tactics" and "spells & magic"
LIke many of the scribes here, I started playing with 1st edition. 1st edition had its flaws... but 2nd edition did nothing to fix it up. THe players options books might help you with conversion, but once they released the players options books... the 2nd edition started to break and crack. The players options book are a power gamers dream, but it serves to absolutely destroy the 2nd edition system by not taking into consideration how the original rules work.
I was seriously ressistant to third edition. But once I sat down with it, and saw how the rules work, I realized they finally fixed alot of the problems inherent in 1st and 2nd ed.
I have converted a bunch of my favourite mods to 3rd edition (like the slaver series and Keep on the Borderlands. It is not an impossible task. The word of advice I would give, is often you have to look at the original 2nd or 1st ed write up of a class or race. Determine what skill or feats the class gives and then assign them accordingly. OFTEN you will have to assign feats arbitrarily, but it is not too difficult. You should look into getting the conversion guide for ability scores however.
Keep in mind though, the 3rd ed skill system is built with the 3rd ed ability bonuses in mind, I don't think the skil system will work as well in a 2nd edition game. SOme may have had success though.
I tried to add some 3rd edition elements to a second ed game, and I realized that adding alot of 3rd ed rules to a 2nd ed game is just breaking something even worse.
THe new designers did a good job with 3e. Yes they dumbed the rules down, but they actually made simple rules work in a very eloquent way. I have not seen gaming at this level since the D&D first edition. Once again independent designers are making role playing aids, which they stopped doing once second edition was printed.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 04:41:13
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Would people stop telling me to use 3e?! I did not ask for opinions on 2e vs 3e. I specifically asked for aid in converting one specific thing from 3e back to 2e. I am fully capable of making up my own mind and neither wanted, nor sought, advice on which of the two to use, but that seems to be just about all I got. Few other than Wooly seemed to even consider the question I asked!
[deep breath] Ok, rant over. But seriously, please pay attention to what was asked. I have played 3e extensively since it came out (both versions), and have made up my own mind about it. I don't need help in that department. What I needed were specifics on converting 3e skills into a 2e version. Looks like I'll be doing it myself. If I ever work it out to my satisfaction, I'll post my results. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 16:59:55
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If your rant is done.... here is the way our team got over the original issue of skills in 2nd ed. It just took me a while to find the old sheets to figure out exactly how we did this. Its been a while since I had to find it.
A starting character has as many skill points as it has intelligence plus wisdom. (12 INT + 11 WIS = 23 skill points) You can allocate those points into any skill you like, at the standard rate, but at 1/2 your base stat. eg. Tumble = 1/2 dex + skill points. This made skill rolls something other than automatic successes. To get really high skills, you had to put lots of points into them. Lots of low level skills, or a couple that you are really good at...choices choices.
We figured that since the book said that average was 9-12, that people at the high end of average and above should get extra skill points. At each level the character gained (INT-9)in extra skill points. Each character got a minimum of 1 skill point each level. Wizards tended to get lots of skill points. To keep our rogues as skill monsters we doubled the skill points for rogues as a class benefit.
Cross class skills cost 2 points in for every point out. If a skill slot had a base requirement of 3, then if you were cross classing the skill it cost 6. This house rule often had many characters with at least a 13 INT in the game. Very rarely did we have the dumb brute any more.
Most of our games ended between 8-12th level, so I don't know if this gets ridiculous at high levels, but up until that point, it is fairly balanced and quite fun!
Hope this adds an extra thought line for you.
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Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 17:13:42
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| Very much so. That gives me quite a lot to think over, actually. And your players seemed to like it? That always helps. One question, if I may: did you stick to the 3e system for setting DC's, or did you create your own? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2005 : 17:24:09
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Sort of like 3rd edition, except we started at 5 for very easy. and moved up. This was because most people had a large base number to start with. If you had the skill at all, you usually had at least a 5 in it((9 stat/2)+1=5). So that became our practically automatic roll. And then we bumped it up by 5 for every difficulty level. So something tough to do was a target 20 instead of 15.
The players liked it a lot. It gave them a greater depth of skills to use, and it made skill choices more flexible for the character.
We also allowed people to use the thief skills, at 3% per skill point put into the skill. (our cleric of Mask maxed out his favorite: pick pocket)
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Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 00:49:31
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| Thanks. That helps a lot. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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3e skills in 2e
