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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 00:24:51
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Hello Again!
Awhile ago I was reading Faiths and Pantheaons and it syas so and so opposes this guy. When they say this it obviously means there churches are against one another but what about the deites themselves do they ever meet and fight. Or do the respective deites have their own fiendish/celestial armies and they rage wars across the planes. Ex Bane would send some devils to attack a group of Torm's Celestials.
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Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 00:45:49
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Well in WotSQ clearly two deities met and fought, the son not doing to well.
There however is little lore of direct battles between deities. We have the above and of course the ToT where deities actually died. In general we do not know all the ways of deities and the types of battles they wage. Often it appears to be more indirect then direct comfortation. Oh the lore certainly include the Seldarine battles as well. So yes at times they clearly fight each other face to face. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 02:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well in WotSQ clearly two deities met and fought, the son not doing to well.
There however is little lore of direct battles between deities. We have the above and of course the ToT where deities actually died. In general we do not know all the ways of deities and the types of battles they wage. Often it appears to be more indirect then direct comfortation. Oh the lore certainly include the Seldarine battles as well. So yes at times they clearly fight each other face to face.
In addition to what Kentinal just said, I think a large part of the deity-to-deity conflict is prosecuted by mortal means -- specifically the mortal clergies of each deity involved in conflict are likely directed into battle against another Power. We had similar discussions in another scroll a few weeks ago about deities, conflict, and divine armies. Ah yes, here it is.
However, that is not to say that deities don't also sometimes engage in direct confrontation with each other. But I prefer that such events, for example the Dawn Cataclysm, take place outside or beyond the mortal's experience. Avatars and portions of gods probably come to blows rather often. And Ao may just assume that so long as these conflicts don't spill over into the Prime Material Plane, he has little interest in them -- adopting a non-interference policy. Greater gods may even generate "demi-plane battlefields" as a private place for settling divine grievances. Again, so long as they don't interfere with mortal matters, Ao doesn't give them much heed.
Overall though, if and when deities do go to war, the mortals of the Realms most likely never ever know about it -- even those who worship the powers presently in contention. Unless they are the divine champion or Chosen for that particular deity perhaps. Mystra's Chosen are probably aware, to an extent, of the actions of the Lady of Mysteries.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 03:28:10
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| Lol. I think another reason that deities don't fight each other anymore is that nobody stays dead in 3E. All these deities keep coming back and with LEoF about worshipping and resurrecting dead deities, there's just really no point wasting so much power on an enemy and have him come back to life. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 07:00:23
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Excuse me, I know Selune and Shar once fought each other face to face before Ao interfered and stopped the fight between the sisters during the creation of Toril(am I wrong?)
So can I ask so far how many dieties have officially battled each other face to face without Ao interference in their fights. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 07:12:10
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| Actually I think if the fighting has to do with their portfolios and doesn't interfere with another god's portfolio, I don't think he would intervene. Heck, he doesn't seem to have intervened when Lathander caused the Dawn Cataclysm, so its hard to say exactly what gets the big guys attention, though you could argue that Lathander was acting within his portfolio and that other gods fell down on the job by not noticing what he was up to. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:10:41
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Well, I know of several dieties that have slugged it out. For brevity sake, and in keeping with (I believe) the spirit of the question, I'm going to assume we're not talking about clashes in the Time of Troubles.
Shar V Selune, Corellion v Gruumsh (sp?), Who else?
On a side note, it seems even dieties like Tempus, whose portfolios include combat-related areas don't seem to fight as much as those who have serious principle-related issues with each other. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 16:08:48
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Just a quick thought ...
The destruction of one deitiy by another would not result in the destruction of that deities portfolio, which would just be passed onto the next likely candidate or absorbed by a prevailing deity. That being the case, other than power grabbing, what would be the point for deities to rumble? You gotta figure that divine intellect and wisdom gotta count for something, no? Something that might enable them to, perhaps, see how seeming contradictions actually compliment each other in the greater scheme? Or perhaps rise above the petty interpersonal conflicts that are more-or-less definitive of, well, us petty humans ... and which only becomes a divine attribute through careless projection?
Destroying "unpleasant" aspects of a functional whole isn't very smart or wise afterall. And not liking the look on Cyric's "fat, stupid face" seems pretty, well, petty.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 16:35:23
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quote:
You gotta figure that divine intellect and wisdom gotta count for something, no?
Actually, No, it doesn't scary huh? The dieties in Faerun are just as petty, small-minded and zealous as any human, in fact moreso in many aspects. Also, remember that many of them are ascended mortals who still retain their previous foibles. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:24:47
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I think it was in Prince of Lies where Mystra 2.0 explained that each deity tends to focus on their own portfolio(s), to the exclusion of most everything else -- including the Big Picture.
I don't know how true that actually is, but it certainly seems like it. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 05:10:11
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| Tempus fought Garagos for supremacy over the portfolio of war. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 18:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Tempus fought Garagos for supremacy over the portfolio of war.
And Garagos is still out there, plotting revenge. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 18:55:09
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It seems exquisitely fitting to me that, one, deities of simliair portfolios will struggle for dominance, and that, amongst war-gods, this struggle will manifest and/or be perceived by mortals as single combat. Amongst deities of learning it might manifest as a lively debate or quiz, while deities of craftsmanship would contest based upon the quality of their products, etc.
What is so strange about some representations of the Faerunian pantheon however, is that gods of different portfolios would be in such stark competition, with a patently monotheistic view of Creation, and that they would all decide whose the best in their repsective domains via physical combat. Human perception, as limited as it might be, can nevertheless perceive that any whole is made up of many different parts, and that for a community to properly function it needs more than just law, or just war, or just death, or just renewal, or just lore, et al. In fact, a human is intimately aware of the value of that which they don't possess. The farmer for instance soon learns the value of his warrior neighbour once a foreign army passes through.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 21:05:50
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[rant/]
I have to admit that the "battling god-bots" aspect has always irked me. I don't like the concept of all the FR gods being like large, spoiled children and bashing away at each other. It all just seems so unorganized. There ins't a cohesive pantheon of gods that make sense and/or fulfill the needs of their worshippers.
I DO like how Greyhawk did it. There are several pantheons developed along ethnic lines (Suel, Oreidian, Flan, and humanoids). Each pantheon has a figurehead and various gods that fill roles that are needed. Each as a mother goddess. Each has a war god. Sure, there is some trouble in each pantheon, but each one is complete until itself. When you start mixing the pantheons together is where there is a lot of interesting conflict, even between good vs good religions.
When I look at the FR pantheon, I don't see much structure at all. Sure, there are some loosely organized good gods that are against all the evil gods. Some of the evil gods form clicks that fight the good and each other. Also, if you read the novels, they make the gods appear to be the all powerful children aspect. It's lame.
I like to have the gods appear to be these supremely powerful beings that are beyond human comprehension. When they need to relay a message to someone, they don't just appear in a vision and talk like a normal being. They just can't communicate effectively. They give visions of images, emotions, sounds, and smells to get their message across. They leave symbols and objects. Their messangers' apperance can show approval or disapproval. That's where the church comes in. The church are dedicated priesthoods that are trying to decipher the messages of the gods to the people. They are the gatekeepers to the sacred knowlodge. They are also human and flawed. I see earthly churches battling it out a lot more then I do the various gods coming to blows. It's also in this vien that I think it's stupid to give stats to the gods.
Of course, I am against the whole "have to pick a patron diety" and the concept of the faithless. It forces a person to pick just one god to worship in what should be a polytheistic society. Everyone should worship almost all the gods. Even theives can say a prayer to Chauntea as he eats his dinner that night. Paladins should also not be be-grudged for giving an offering to Umberlee before a sea voyage. It's just the way a polytheistic culture works.
[\rant]
Just my humble opinion. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 21:08:58
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| In FRCS 3E pgs 248-250 (Selune and Shar entries) there is some detail about the battles between these sister goddesses. There is more detail on page 4 of Magic of Faerun: "Selune reached beyond the universe to a plane of fire, using pure flame to ignite one of the heavenly bodies so that Chautea would be warmed. Shar became enraged and begane to snuff out all light and warmth in the universe. Desperate and greatly weakened, Selune tore the divine essence of magic from her body and hurled it at her sister," who was Shar. |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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RedStrike
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 03:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Thureen Buroch
In FRCS 3E pgs 248-250 (Selune and Shar entries) there is some detail about the battles between these sister goddesses. There is more detail on page 4 of Magic of Faerun: "Selune reached beyond the universe to a plane of fire, using pure flame to ignite one of the heavenly bodies so that Chautea would be warmed. Shar became enraged and begane to snuff out all light and warmth in the universe. Desperate and greatly weakened, Selune tore the divine essence of magic from her body and hurled it at her sister," who was Shar.
Divine essence of magic? So is it how through this conflict between Selune and Shar that Mystryl came to existence? |
We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 01:58:40
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| You are exactly right. |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 08:03:32
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| somewhere in a novel it is mentioned that some of the avatars of waring deities battle it out. so i would assume that the gods just help some of their followers to beat the followers of other gods up. as they decimate(sp?) these belivers the other god gets weaker cause of less followers. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 08:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
somewhere in a novel it is mentioned that some of the avatars of waring deities battle it out. so i would assume that the gods just help some of their followers to beat the followers of other gods up. as they decimate(sp?) these belivers the other god gets weaker cause of less followers.
Some of the deities do help their followers beat up the followers of the other gods. And so the viticmized followers will call upon their god for help and avenge themselves on the followers of the enemy deities of their god. Basically it is a cycle of vengeance anyway. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 15:17:59
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Songrim Said: quote:
somewhere in a novel it is mentioned that some of the avatars of waring deities battle it out. so i would assume that the gods just help some of their followers to beat the followers of other gods up. as they decimate(sp?) these belivers the other god gets weaker cause of less followers.
I don't think that that's the only way other gods get weaker. Some examples:
In Shar vs. Selune, before they even had followers, after Selune reached into that Plane of Fire and ignited one of the heavenly bodies (probably the sun), Shar put out all light in the universe, which greatly weakened Selune. Selune was even more weakened after pulled that essence of divine magic from herself and hurling it at Shar (this essence later became Mystryl). This weakened Selune even more, and she is weaker to this day than her dark sister (Shar's a greater goddess, Selune's intermediate).
Secondly, in City of the Spider Queen, Lolth fell silent, and Kieransalee became a Lesser Goddess (from Demigod). Kieransalee had overpowered Lolth in some way (that way is not detailed in this module), and, although most Spider Kissers still worshipped Lolth, thinking of it as a "test of their loyalty," because Lolth fell silent, she obviously dropped in ranks from Greater Goddess to probably a Demigod (the only reason she didn't lose her godhood is because she retained her portfolio). |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 15:31:47
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quote:
originally posted by Thureen Buroch
In Shar vs. Selune, before they even had followers, after Selune reached into that Plane of Fire and ignited one of the heavenly bodies (probably the sun), Shar put out all light in the universe, which greatly weakened Selune. Selune was even more weakened after pulled that essence of divine magic from herself and hurling it at Shar (this essence later became Mystryl). This weakened Selune even more, and she is weaker to this day than her dark sister (Shar's a greater goddess, Selune's intermediate).
I now see why Selune remained a intermediate power while Shar remains as a greater power. It appears Selune had made quite a lot of sacrifices but I wonder whether Shar purposely plotted such actions so as to weaken her opposing sister from ever being on the same par of power as her. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 15:50:36
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Selune and Shar were the first gods/goddesses (except, of course, for Lord Ao). Then Lord Ao created Chauntea, the embodyment of the Earth. She asked for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures on her form. Now, keep in mind that Shar was evil and Selune good. Selune wanted to give warmth to Chauntea, but Shar didn't. Shar and Selune battled each other, as I said before, and Selune, obviously, won (after all, if Shar had won, Toril would be a dark, cold place with no light and no warmth). Well, now take into account the fact that Shar is an evil deity (one of four greater evil powers in the human pantheon), a deity of jealousy, and of "pains hidden but not forgotten, carefully nutured bitterness, and quiet revenge for old slights." Well, this battle was about the oldest, and largest, slight ever given to her, and she is, after all, Selune's evil twin!   |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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DeathRage
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 15:59:04
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Looks like Lord Ao must answer some questions about why he let such evil exist in the pantheon and carry out atrocities while Lord Ao hide away in some plane. Maybe Lord Ao should be interviewed about his plans and ideals. |
Take the world as it is, not as it ought to be |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 02:54:55
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Wait, I have a question that confuses me, if Selune indirectly created Mystyl when Selune tore off the essence of magic from herself during the fight with Shar, then what about The Weave? Did Mystryl almost instantly gained control of the Weave when she was created or was the Weave created when Mystryl was created?
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 15:49:20
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I took this directly from "Magic of Faerun" pg 4: quote:
[Mystryl's] very existance changed the reality of the universe by creating the Weave, the conduit that allows creatures to use magic. Suddenly, rather than magic being restricted to just the deities, any creature with the talent or training could draw upon the power of magic through the weave.
So it sounds like the weave was created when Mystryl was created. Of, course, the Weave was created before any sentient races existed on Toril! |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 18:02:36
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| Don't forget that Selune's power has waxed and waned with the ages. From what I recall, Selune was a more powerful and important diety in the times of Nethril then currently today. Her lesser status reflects this more then the creation of Mystra (or so I recall from the older sourcebooks). |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 18:13:14
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quote:
Don't forget that Selune's power has waxed and waned with the ages. From what I recall, Selune was a more powerful and important diety in the times of Nethril then currently today. Her lesser status reflects this more then the creation of Mystra (or so I recall from the older sourcebooks).
This is, indeed, part of it. On pg 260 of 3E FRCS, it says, "Selune waxed and waned with the light, but drew strength from her allied daughters and sons." I seems to me, though, that the reason she waxes and wanes, as the moon does, rather than staying bright as the full moon, is because of the battle she had with Shar that weakened her, but because of the support of her followers, she hasn't remained dim as a full moon.
I could be wrong about this, though, and feel free to correct me if this is the case! |
Goblins? *Slash* *Scream* *Thunk* What goblins? |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 10:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
[rant/]
I have to admit that the "battling god-bots" aspect has always irked me. I don't like the concept of all the FR gods being like large, spoiled children and bashing away at each other. It all just seems so unorganized. There ins't a cohesive pantheon of gods that make sense and/or fulfill the needs of their worshippers.
I DO like how Greyhawk did it. There are several pantheons developed along ethnic lines (Suel, Oreidian, Flan, and humanoids). Each pantheon has a figurehead and various gods that fill roles that are needed. Each as a mother goddess. Each has a war god. Sure, there is some trouble in each pantheon, but each one is complete until itself. When you start mixing the pantheons together is where there is a lot of interesting conflict, even between good vs good religions.
When I look at the FR pantheon, I don't see much structure at all. Sure, there are some loosely organized good gods that are against all the evil gods. Some of the evil gods form clicks that fight the good and each other. Also, if you read the novels, they make the gods appear to be the all powerful children aspect. It's lame.
I like to have the gods appear to be these supremely powerful beings that are beyond human comprehension. When they need to relay a message to someone, they don't just appear in a vision and talk like a normal being. They just can't communicate effectively. They give visions of images, emotions, sounds, and smells to get their message across. They leave symbols and objects. Their messangers' apperance can show approval or disapproval. That's where the church comes in. The church are dedicated priesthoods that are trying to decipher the messages of the gods to the people. They are the gatekeepers to the sacred knowlodge. They are also human and flawed. I see earthly churches battling it out a lot more then I do the various gods coming to blows. It's also in this vien that I think it's stupid to give stats to the gods.
Of course, I am against the whole "have to pick a patron diety" and the concept of the faithless. It forces a person to pick just one god to worship in what should be a polytheistic society. Everyone should worship almost all the gods. Even theives can say a prayer to Chauntea as he eats his dinner that night. Paladins should also not be be-grudged for giving an offering to Umberlee before a sea voyage. It's just the way a polytheistic culture works.
[\rant]
Just my humble opinion.
The Faerūnian deities aren't any worse than the gods and goddesses of Greece, and their pantheon and policies are much more orderly. There is also very little deity-mortal miscegenation in Faerūn compared to many real world pantheons. (Loki was the mother of some of the monsters of Ragnarok, for crying out loud!)
As I understand divine patronage, based on my readings in 2E and 3E materials and the novels, the real importance of a Patron comes after death, when the deity's agents scoop up the Faithful from the Fugue Plain. If you don't have a Patron you're screwed. A deity can claim a soul which is generally viewed as Faithless by pointing out things that the soul did while alive which directly benefited the deity's portfolio. Mask, for instance, has dibs on thieves, even those who never worshipped him; if they have no other god as a Patron, Mask may rescue them and take them into his domain. That sort of fast and loose behavior by the gods has led (in the novels) to much inter-deity arguing and indirect attempts (and a few direct attempts) on the lives of other deities. (Cyric, of course, is the worst offender, but who knows how Bane 2.0 will behave?)
From the perspective of Planescape, I can easily imagine that the souls of those who had close ties to more than one deity might be employed as divine agents to other planes or the realms of other deities. "Petitioners" can be quite active, not just harp-strumming, cloud-sitting drones for the rest of eternity.
Alas, I cannot prove a word of it.
You might find the theology of Tekumel (now in D20 -- hooray!) of interest. The divine divide there is between the gods of "Stability" and the gods of "Change." The gods of learning have the same portfolios, but their intent in gathering knowledge differs: Thumis gathers knowledge to share it, Ksarul gathers knowledge to use it for himself; ditto their followers. The two war gods are so nearly identical in what they do that their priesthoods form the quasi-political "war party," allying together against deities from their own cadres in the interest of more warfare and the burning of more sentient beings as sacrifices. The goddess of womanhood on the side of Stability is maid-mother-crone; the deity of womanhood on the side of Change is the harlot: pleasure in all of its forms is the goal of her worshippers.
As far as I can tell all of the gods of learning and knowledge in the Realms (e.g., Oghma, Deneir, Thoth) get along well together. If Ao wanted to balance out the pantheons He/She/It/They could introduce a deity who gathers knowledge for selfish purposes. That is part of Shar's Secrets portfolio, but she has been too busy with the Shadow Weave to do much sponsoring of archives which would serve as anti-universities (much knowledge flows in, but very little trickles out). If Shar was active that way we might expect to see her followers knifing scholars (perish the thought!) to steal books or to eliminate rivals who are getting too big a share of the government grant money. (I mention elsewhere how dull Loremasters are, rules-wise. I think I shall create an NPC Loremaster who worships Shar. Hmmm.... "The Order of the Closed Book"....) |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Divine Politics
