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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 15:20:31
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On the board that should not be mentioned and a few other places there has been on ging discussions of how equal Eilistraeen societies are under 3.x Edition. Especially the question of male Clerics/Priests. This has been something I have been interested in and tend to belong to the camp that some can exist.
I found this quote:
Eilistraee's followers usually must hide within the cities of the Spider Queen, but those fortunate to live in a place where their faith can be expressed enjoy a gender-equal society like those of the Vhaeraunian drow, except without the taint of evil, vengeance, and conquest that her family's followers carry with them.
at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/drowsocial which certainly would appear to allow for male Clerics. I am also aware of the 2nd Edition restriction to female only and some relie on this because no 3.x material clearly states that males are allowed now. That there is gender statement at all can justify falling back to 2nd material.
I am also aware that this question has been asked of Ed of Greenwood, one of the unanswered questions. Until such timeoccurs that WotC or Ed makes a more declaratory statment. Both sides have valid points.
That said what would be other aspects of an Eilistraee community.
I would expect that Drow House struture would still be used, that however the House would have equal chance of a Patron or a Matron that succesion would go to the oldest or perhaps the best qualified.
I see such communities based on hunting, music and metal working. With Elven farming and other crafts established as support for the community. Also as much as posible such communities would be multi-racial though odds are Drow would be the majority.
There of course would be defenses as well considering that most others seek to kill them, Lolthians because they are not and others bekieving that they are. To this end most Eilistraeens would be armed or within a guarded location. Sleep poison certainly would be used as part of the defense scheme to try to reduce needless deaths. I would expect those that do not take favour class would tend to selecting more commonly Bard or Ranger then the other classe.
Any way a few thoughts. Also ods are good that each community would many differences because of limited communication between such communities.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 16:18:47
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Sigh I don't want to get into this again but twice last year in 2 different replies Ed said she has priestesses and discussed the dancing dark ladies, which is another name for her female clerics.
As for what might be within a community, I could see some variant blade barrier spells that involve different blades as a defense.
Also places to sing, dance, etc. :) Like a small aphitheather. (sp?) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Jun 2005 16:20:18 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 18:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Sigh I don't want to get into this again but twice last year in 2 different replies Ed said she has priestesses and discussed the dancing dark ladies, which is another name for her female clerics.
Yes I read the other thread I saw your post of the quotes. They lend to maintaining the status quo, however certainly not definitive either. Other then the place not to be named
http://www.eilistraee.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=creligion;cat=chosen
has a thread that discusses the possible change. As I said each side do have points (or in one possible case a typo) supporting their view. I do not want to spend much time on debating this item. Just included it as an item that some disagree with and hopefully Ed or WotC will put out something that most will accept as canon. After all there are other ways to become a Silverhair Knight then having Clerical levels (something I did not see mentioned at the place not to be named). *wink*
quote:
As for what might be within a community, I could see some variant blade barrier spells that involve different blades as a defense.
Also places to sing, dance, etc. :) Like a small aphitheather. (sp?)
Hmm blade barrier of bastards swords? Certainly spells such as blade barrier would be used as part of defense scheme. I would think though the use would be restricted as oposed to wide spread as such a community seeks to make friends with all races. Such magic might be used to guard a ritual, guard perhaps fall back positions when the Lolthians come (for it is said most Eilistraee communities do not exist for long times).
Sing and dance almost certainly there would be a grove that can be lighted with moon light. Not sure an amphitheater would be needed or desired, music and song is part of the entire community. Evening song can be private and silent. I picture an amphitheater as an entertainment center where most watch passively. Perhaps a large comunity might use one for announcements of the day?
The socity certainly will build as to their needs the Promenade being the best known one provides little guidence as to how the community works. I believe about 60 where listed as being there, the numbers of Priestesses and the defense forces, but nothing is provided concerning how many craftsmen, children and so on. The over all number I suspect to be over 150 citizens and might be much higher.
We do know other communities exist, but that is all we know. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 02:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Sigh I don't want to get into this again but twice last year in 2 different replies Ed said she has priestesses and discussed the dancing dark ladies, which is another name for her female clerics.
Indeed, and although I didn't comment myself in that same thread, I found myself agreeing with everything that Kuje said in support of Ed's original comments about the Dark Ladies.
quote:
Yes I read the other thread I saw your post of the quotes. They lend to maintaining the status quo, however certainly not definitive either.
I don't know how you can say that. Kuje referenced several official points about the possible existence of male clerics for Eilistraee several times, and quoted Ed's own words on the topic twice.
As I recall, the 2e tome Demihuman Deities is the necessary official proof that clearly states that Eilistraee has only female clerics. This doesn't conflict with anything written about the drow goddess in Faiths and Pantheons because that particular 3e tome says nothing about her having male clerics in her clergy.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jun 2005 02:59:27 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 11:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't know how you can say that. Kuje referenced several official points about the possible existence of male clerics for Eilistraee several times, and quoted Ed's own words on the topic twice.
I can offer at least two quotes that information provided by Ed tends to be the average/normal/expected though not on this topic. "The clergy of Eilistraee are collectively known as Dark Ladies" is clearly 2nd Edition where female is clearly stated.
F&P however only uses the word Clerics and no titles at all, further there is this passage " Eilistraee's clerics often multiclass as fighters, bards, rangers, or sword dancers (see Chapter 4)." The PrC is the only place noted a gender restriction. It leaves open the posibility that a gender restriction was removed from being a cleric or more posible because of stat blocks there was not enough space to include gender restriction and titles in Eilistraee's information.
The question has been asked twice of Ed this year and has not been answered yet. Perhaps because of NDA, perhaps because silence means Yes, Perhaps because Ed thinks it is a stupid question. It migt also be Ed chooses not to comment because he deems it more proper WotC answer the question as THO has indicated Ed's home game still tends to 2nd Edition rules.
Vhaeraun for example has this "His priesthood is exclusively male" except of course for the female clerics. The absense of gender in Eilistraee's information provides a question of change or can be using older source material. Lolth's clerics changed so that might be why F&P indicated this and Eilistraee's clerics did not change so nothing was said about gender (Thus requiring all 3rd FR players to aquire 2nd Edtion material to find out Holy Symbol changed and all clergy is female).
F&P does tend to imply all female by this passage "When relaxing, they favor silvery, diaphanous gowns." The use of female pronouns however does not as much of 3.x used she or her to repersent either gender.
There is of course Silverhair Knights that can be either gender and certainly are clergy by abilities and goals, however males ones might have been rangers before taking this PrC.
As I said before and I say now there are points that support either view and certainly some former employees of WotC hold the belief that male clerics are premitted. So far, as far as I know, WotC has made no official answer on this, nor has Ed.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 17:40:58
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A rather interesting thing I just found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee which as you may know can be modified by any person. I can not find any source to verify some claims that were added by an unknown person and might have to strike them.
However before such action is taken I ask if any would know of what source they came from. Clearly could be fan based.
IAE these are what I was very surprised to see.
"Women vastly outnumber the men in the clergy of Eilistraee."
"When relaxing, they prefer silver, diaphanous gowns for the women and silver togas for the men."
I can not find any source to support these two statments at all and I know some defualting to 2nd edition clearly would strike them both. What makes it more interesting is that the Holy Symbol is 2nd as oposed to 3rd which makes it more difficlut to understand why males were added.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 17:17:12
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Picked up from ask ED scroll, though the question can still remain there as well as Ed might have other thoughts on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by bearsden
I am new to these forums so forgive me if I have posted this in the wrong spot.
I would like to know the role of male Eilistraeen worshipers in Eilistraeen rituals. Do the males participate? Are the males excluded from any? Any insight into these questions would help me out immensely.
Thanks in advance for your time and help.
bd
The lore and official statements indicate that males and females are equal or near equal. As the societies can be multi-racial each society will deal with males in different ways.
My view in general is that males can participate in any ritual though often choose not to enter them because of custom. Instead they would watch and guard over the circles or gathers from Lolthians or others that would seek to harm the Clergy well they dance, pray, sing. There is no requirement for nudity just many feel closer to Eilistraee by not wearing clothing durring times of pray. This should apply just as equal to males as it would to females during evensong or any time a pray is offered to Eilistraee. The closer one feels to Eilistraee the more likely their clothers will be removed to honor her. The Priestesses (and posible Priests being Permitted by 3.x changes, though that debate has not been officially answered and not wanting to get into this again), Rangers, Paladins (If they are permitted in house rules), Silverhair Knights and Darksong Knights would be the ones that would feel closer to Eilistraee then other followers and more apt to take clothes off when praying. One thing to remmember is that comfort is most inportant thing. Not just comfort of themselves but comfort of the Community. If nudity of females or males not well accepted yet by the community as a whole, they will wear something. Also if there is security concerns th comfort level will include armor and weapons near by if not worn. There is only two times nudity is required by the 3.0 write up, the High Hunt and the Last Dance. All other times nudity is a matter of choice and comfort.
I can see males dancing and singing with the females, provided they also can sing and dance well as is expected nude or not if the community feels comfort with the idea even if they still can not be Clerics of Eilistraee. The communities are scattered though out the realms and there is no formal link of communities. They for security reasons are very secert and thus evolve their customs in different ways. Thy adhere to the Dogma, but devise thier own ways to follow and honor the Dark Maiden for where Dogma is silent.
One of the Drow city write up that was/is on WotC website (that I can not find now) indicated that there are groups of Eilistraee followers living in the city that do not know of each other. This is how secert Eilistraee communities are. There is no central authority, there is no network of regular communication amoung Her worshipers. This allows for each community to evolve their own way of honoring the Goddess.
Barring a more official reply, I would say males are not barred from participating in any event that they qualify for, just that most choose not to do so. Of course males can not participate in leading a High Hunt or the Last Dance unless they are allowed to become Priests by the very nature of these two rituals. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 11:22:33
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A rather interesting thing I just found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee which as you may know can be modified by any person. I can not find any source to verify some claims that were added by an unknown person and might have to strike them.
However before such action is taken I ask if any would know of what source they came from. Clearly could be fan based.
IAE these are what I was very surprised to see.
"Women vastly outnumber the men in the clergy of Eilistraee."
"When relaxing, they prefer silver, diaphanous gowns for the women and silver togas for the men."
I can not find any source to support these two statments at all and I know some defualting to 2nd edition clearly would strike them both. What makes it more interesting is that the Holy Symbol is 2nd as oposed to 3rd which makes it more difficlut to understand why males were added.
Unfortunately, the FR wiki is *VERY* inaccurate. I saw quite a few things in my quick browse through that disagree with the Canon Realms, or aren't updated to reflect 3rd Edition. In neither Demihuman Deities (2nd Ed) nor Faiths and Pantheons (3rd ed) is there mentioned male priests in togas, nor anything about males being in the clergy at all. I think someone was writing out of wishful thinking, or perhaps confusing House Rules for Canon Lore.
I would never use a source on the 'Net for Realms Canon, unless it is something from THO, Ed Greenwood, or published on the WotC website. Anything else is unofficial (this includes the Wikipedia entry for the Realms). |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 14:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
I would never use a source on the 'Net for Realms Canon, unless it is something from THO, Ed Greenwood, or published on the WotC website. Anything else is unofficial (this includes the Wikipedia entry for the Realms).
*nods* Which is why I asked back in June if there was any non net source/ though WotC net should be canon (excepting typos and some # ogue interpertations.)
Back to subject at hand. I suspect strongly males woulf participate in the High Hunt, following their naked Priestess to make sure she has some protection. It might be more debatable about if males would participate in the following ciecle dance if the kill is made. Males certainly would not be involved in a Run (or should not be) as the Cleric travels alone. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 14:50:08
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I would agree with you. That's the role that I gave them in my campaign. I had a Drow Paladin escorting the priestesses through the forest and such to make sure nothing really bad attacks while the priestesses are Skyclad.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 22:12:56
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I would agree with you. That's the role that I gave them in my campaign. I had a Drow Paladin escorting the priestesses through the forest and such to make sure nothing really bad attacks while the priestesses are Skyclad.
*raises an eyebrow* I would not want to be a monster or other nasty encountering a naked priestess of Eilistraee in the middle of the High Hunt (or any other skyclad run through any forest anywhere)...
Remember, Eilistraee is a goddess of hunting and swordwork, and it's not like the priestesses are unarmed (they carry swords, if I remember correctly). I think they'd be perfectly capable of defending themselves (teamwork is the key here), armour or no armour.
(Drow paladin? Of which god? Eilistraee doesn't have paladins, so I'm assuming this would be of some human deity? Unless you've House Ruled otherwise, of course, which you're perfectly entitled to do!) |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 22:23:11
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*Grin* If one Choatic Good Goddesses can have a Paladin, clearly another could. Yes that is clearly a House rule.
As for the High Hunt it "is a nocturnal pursuit of a dangerous beast or monster, led by clerics of Eilistraee. By tradition, the hunters may use any bladed weapons and wear anything—except the clerics, who go naked, each carrying only a single sword. If the quarry is slain, the celebrants chant prayers and perform a circle dance to the deity."
This is clearly a group event and gender nuetral. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 01:58:13
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*Grin* If one Choatic Good Goddesses can have a Paladin, clearly another could. Yes that is clearly a House rule.
But Sune is supposedly the exception.  At any rate, I don't have a problem with other exceptions... I always felt that to limit Paladins to LG alignment was rather silly... In my mind, Paladins serve the God they worship, not the Lawful Good alignment. 
quote:
As for the High Hunt it "is a nocturnal pursuit of a dangerous beast or monster, led by clerics of Eilistraee. By tradition, the hunters may use any bladed weapons and wear anything—except the clerics, who go naked, each carrying only a single sword. If the quarry is slain, the celebrants chant prayers and perform a circle dance to the deity."
This is clearly a group event and gender nuetral. *wink*
Yup. That's what I thought (and tried to point out in the Ask Ed thread)... I'm sure there are plenty of lay worshippers who go skyclad on the hunt too. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 02:47:41
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Well ak Ed should be geared to asking Ed, which is why I tried to tug it other here as debate/conflicting views rosed. Also sent one PM concerning an item posted, it appears currently under reseach.
Paladin rules were expanded with variant rules in 3.X that permits a "paladin of freedom is chaotic good" if one is willing to use them. There of course are rules for darker knights as well.
Yes I can picture a few followers of the High Hunt, both male and female throwing off their clothes in the chase or posible before it started. I do have a problem with a canender that says the Preistess(es) will lead a High Hunt on the end of a season and every season, there again FR has many High Hunts and the date could refer to others ones. It is rather inane to go on a High Hunt because of sun movement and also not having any target within reach. I have in RP (which is not canon) interperted that sometime during each season a Priestess will feel a call from the Goddess that a dangerios ceature is near, that she will give a call to arms while undressing (if not already Skyclad) and selecting her best sword to lead any that will follow her to try to strike down such creature of evil or danger. It makes no sense to me that on a set day the High Hunt might lead to the worst danger in the region being something like a mad bull, an upset cat, etc. A set date certainly could lead to such things though. The other option of crouse would be a High Hunt that tragets something out of range, also inane in my view, why would a Goddess seek to light blind her followers in the prusuit of striking down evil, or send them on a days long trek to hunt just the dangerious?
Not RAW but it seems to me to make more sense that sometimes during a season Eilistraee calls for a Preistess to lead a hunt. This of course can lead to other problems in interpertation. Does the Dark Maiden call all of the Preistesses or only a few depending on danger assesment. I can go either way on this possibility, but clearly support flex time for when a High Hunt occurs. It is very possible that a large Eilistraee community could have 90 Clerics and a High Hunt every night, just lead by one of them. Of course followed by many of the others. This would tend to pacify a region quickly.
That such large communities appear to be rare, if existing at all makes it hard to see the High Hunt every day, but I feel it should be based on the call of the Goddess not a calander date. I also picture based on danger level more then one would feel the call for one hunt. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 03:55:24
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I can predict exactly what Ed will say, guys.
Ed will say something along the lines of this:
"In your game, you are free to have whatever clerics of whatever deities you choose, as long as your players don't feel you're stinking it up."
The reason why he's reluctant to respond, I think, is twofold. One: If he does, it will prevent someone from enjoying a game they play often. Two: It has the possibility of being misinterpreted by someone in a racist/sexist way that could lead to a lawsuit by a non WOTC party of the third part, so to speak.
Ed has said repeatedly that the Realms are about FUN. He's not going to ruin someone's fun. |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 08:23:19
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Let's take this view. An Eilistraeean society may well accord equal respect to males and females, while still restricting the priesthood to women. It simply acknowledges that the contribution made by the men is equally valued. Maybe Eilistraeean men are swordsmiths, or wizards, or sages and scholars.
What they aren't is second-class citizens, who stay home taking care of the kiddies or serving as "trophy-husbands" to their Priestess wives.
One can have gender equality in a society and still have gender-based division of labor, as long as both sexes are equally valued, and enjoy equal rights. What rites they enjoy is not our concern.
Or, to put it another way, a male cannot be a priest of Eilistraee... But nothing at all hinders him from being a priest of Her father, Corellon Larethian, and suppoting the Sisterhood of the Sword in that role. |
Edited by - Vangelor on 07 Dec 2005 08:23:55 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 13:09:53
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Hmm I have a few problems with Priest of Corellon Larethian existing in an Eilistraee communities.
1) Of the Drow Eilisraee followers know the true history of the Desent arcording to official sources, that which is between that of which most Drow believe and what the fair elves believe. This being that Corellon Larethian and the Seldarine transfromed all dark elves into the Drow even those of Good alignment that followed Eilistraee.
2) "Priests of Corellon are expected to be leaders of Elven communities in many ways." Which would conflict or at least could with Priestesses of Lady Silverhair.
Not saying it can not occur, just thinking that such Priests would not fit in well for what Corellon did to them and genders of these two deities would be striving to be community leaders. The male saying to the female "you serve the daughter, the lessor. Thus you should serve me as well" or words to that effect. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 22:58:28
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And the other roles suggested for Eilistraeean males? You don't mention those.
The dark elves who did not revere Llolth before the descent nonetheless failed to oppose those who did. Neither did the Seldarine destroy the dark elves out of hand. The exiled them to the Underdark... and allowed Eilistraee to hold the portfolio of their path to redemption. A harsh judgement, certainly. But not a final one, without hope of parole.
"Priests of Corellon are expected to be leaders of Elven communities in many ways." But not in all things. Leadership is not an absolute. Zeus was revered in Athens, but it was still His daughter's city. Did the priests of Zeus at Olympia tell the Athenians they were worshipping the wrong god? Neither did priests of Zeus in Athens, even though he was the paramount diety of the Hellenic Pantheon. I think the analogy holds.
Sure, the haughty Sun Elves who rule the faith of Corellon on Evermeet disdain dark elves of all sorts. They also look down on everyone else. But that should not be taken as the prejudice of Corellon Larethian, or his priesthood amongst other elven nations and clans.
Amongst other things, Corellon represents the core qualities of elvendom - qualities which Eilistraee encourages her followers to embrace. The priesthood of Corellon has an interest in seeing Eilistraee succeed. They will stand out of the way of her priestesses and allow them to do their work, which is to the benefit of all elvenkind.
A priesthood which seeks the reconciliation of the dark elves with the rest of the race cannot overlook the deity who represents that race. In matters of the particular culture of their subrace, they will still hold to the Eilistraeean ideal in forging their particular place in the larger elven community of Faerun. |
Edited by - Vangelor on 07 Dec 2005 23:01:53 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 04:19:30
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I am not saying that they would over look him, just that they remember what he did to them. I do not see that any Priest of Corellon would achieve the same respect as a Cleric of Eilistraee. Some honor would be given to him, in my opinion, however the betrayer of the good Drow can not recieve the same honor and respect as one that seeks to reclaim birthright. Nor does Eilistraee followers seek reconciliation with Corellon as I read it, just rather they seek to reclaim the lands they were driven from by using peaceful means. Adjusting to daylight that Corellon has cursed them to have a hard time with (yes in game terms you can burn a feat slot, but that also means you can not take another feat). In some ways clearly the father of elves deserves some respect, but all Drow will also cruse him when on the surface or exposed to bright lights, at least is how I would react and I expect most Drow would. Paise Corellon for you are on the surface and can not see because of his actions. Nay I do not believe any Drow would quickly endrose Corellon for what he did to the parents.
This of course can be a point we can not (and most likely will never)agree on. Corellon has denied all Drow access to High Elven Magic, has not aided the good Drow when attacked by those that followed Lolth, he has abandoned the race and punished all of them for the actions of some portion of them.
I can see aceptance of others of the Seldarine quicker then the leader. As for them not killing out of had, which would be worst for you; 1000 years denied the joys of nature, or a quick death?
I do not know if you have played Drow characters, espcially those that seek to reclaim the surface. Even if you have there certainly can be interpertations, variations based on the limited lore available. Based on my play and my understanding of lore, Seldarine will be honored for being the father of the Dark Maiden, but also fowever cursed for what he did (or allowed to be done) to them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2005 : 09:18:53
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I am sure there is plenty of room for interpretation, yes.
Oh, it was a harsh punishment, and I don't really understand why the Descent was forced on all dark elves in truth. The guilty ones, however, plainly did not deserve a swift death. And in any case, such a punishment would have been unsubtle for the elves or their gods. I very much like Eilistraee and the concept of redemption being available to the Drow. The Descent may have been unjust, but is nature just? Justice is a supple concept, at best, and even gods can err.
And no, I do not play Drow. I remember when they made their first appearance in an AD&D module (Descent into the Depth of the Earth? I forget which), and for a long time they were reserved strictly as DM-run antagonists, for parties of fairly high level. That is to say, I was weaned on a game system where Drow were monsters and not considered suitable as a Player Character race. They were also so rarely seen as to be legendary. To this day, I do not allow players in my campaign to run Drow (or half-drow) characters. Followers of Eilistraee have appered in my campaign as a plot twist, where they stopped a Vhaeraunite band from violating an ancient shrine, ill-defended by wild elves. But they were NPCs.
I admit freely to a violent aversion to Drow, only hightened for my distrust and dislike of things that are trendy. In all my years playing in the World of Darkness setting, for instance, I never, ever played a vampire, and refused to spend my money on any books for that game. I'm perverse like that. I do like a good debate, however. I hope I haven't crossed the line here into being offensive or needlessly contrary. I am simply trying to provide a different point of view. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 01:20:18
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From Ask Ed
quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
Heya,
I have yet another series of questions I was pondering the other day...
How do drow learn about Eilistraee, if such knowledge is suppressed in drow cities/comminities (especially ones dedicated to Lolth and/or Vhaeraun)?
There are many followers living in underdark cities, the word is spread carefully to likely recuits to the faith. Darksong Knights and other followers often inflirate as well. Many will of course learn the message when combat is resolved and the Eilistraeens win. As they try to take prisoners killing only clear evil beings. No Drow shall die unless doing evil, all Drow encountered are to be told the message. quote:
Do those who are so inclined towards good come to some kind of deep inner understanding of Her? Or does it actually take the physical act of leaving their homes and coming to the surface and finding an Eilistraeean to talk to? Do Eilistraeeans infiltrate drow cities to try to win who they can for the faith?
In part this is already answered, Short of using Favored Soul class, much like what Sorcerrors are for arcane magic, they do not find Eilistraee as a result of inner reflection. Most that convert or follow (some clearly bor to the faith of parent) need to meet a follower of Eilistraee before considering that this is an option.
quote:
How do the numbers stack: how many Eilistraeeans vs Vhaeraunites? Is Eilistraee a goddess to only a few hundred drow? If so, how does She survive if faith determines power?
I have asked for numbers, however no census was taken, however it is clear that many Thousands, perhaps even millions that follow Lady Silverhair. The Promanade in itself must contain at least 100 followers. There are reports of 60 Drow in Silverymoon.
"No, there aren’t lots of drow worshippers of Eilistraee OPENLY wandering the streets of Silverymoon, but there ARE probably sixty or more dwelling in the city in disguise, and many more in the lands around Silverymoon and around Everlund " THO, quoting ED 22 Dec 2004.quote:
And how do male Eilistraeeans deal with the idea that only females can be priests/clergy, or has this changed with 3rd Edition? (I have asked this question before and had no response so far, but it's kind of linked to my questions about the numbers of Eilistraeeans and how drow come to learn and then convert to her worship.)
Oh this is a fun debate, there was one obsurce 3.X FR product that referred to a male Cleric being killed (the he might have been a typo of she). There is no clear compelling source that now allows male Priests and most still believe they are not permitted at all.
As for male Drows they still likely perfer Wizard and if converted from Lolth used to female only Clergy I do not think many will complain much of having equal or perhaps near equal status. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 12 Dec 2005 21:26:20 |
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 20:11:31
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One thing to remember is that Eilistarreans lack the infighting the spiderkissers have. So their societies would grow larger percentage wise and more elves would survive to their adulthood.
Now it just happens that many people are suspicious of the Eilistarreans, so they still have enemies. However these are outside enemies and not inside like in regular drow socities (who also has outside enemies).
Assuming that their societies are on the surface off course. |
Edited by - Prince Indirian on 12 Dec 2005 20:14:03 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2005 : 21:55:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Indirian
One thing to remember is that Eilistarreans lack the infighting the spiderkissers have. So their societies would grow larger percentage wise and more elves would survive to their adulthood.
I have put forward this argument as well. That in time based on society structure, the children are not killed or forced to kill each others, that the percentage indeed can grow of the overall Drow population. Perhaps growth at a faster rate then Vhaeraunites (which do not kill thier own, but very more likely to kill followers of other deities then trying to convert). The Eilistraee communities will grow in size quicker because of converts and children. But there is also this.quote:
Now it just happens that many people are suspicious of the Eilistarreans, so they still have enemies. However these are outside enemies and not inside like in regular drow socities (who also has outside enemies).
No one trusts a Drow not only are surfacers in general a fow, followers of Lolth are tasked with killing these followers. There are reports of many Eilstraee communities being short lived. The fact that Eilistraee communities tend to be small the disappearance of a few will not even be noticed and there are many that seek to wipe them out. These might balance or even result in atrition exceeding birth rate. There is no official answer as to matters like this. An Eilistraee follower to syrvive must offer an open hand of aid to most, but needs a very quick hand to defense in case the aid is offered to someone seeking to kill them.quote:
Assuming that their societies are on the surface off course.
There was underdark community that Qilué Veladorn grew up in.
"Buiyrandyn: Buiyrandyn, a tiny drow settlement, was famous for its rejection of Lolth and the other evil drow deities. Mind flayers destroyed it centuries ago, and it has since been inhabited by other monsters. Few know it, but Buiyrandyn was the birthplace of Qilue Veladorn, one of the Seven Sisters. "
Qilué and a few playmates were called by Eilistraee to take over what is now known as the Promenade, which is in the undermountain and might still be considered the underdark.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2005 : 00:54:49
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You also have to remember, though, that the majority of Drow in Eilistraee's faithful are females. That means that the population might not grow as the numbers are not very balanced.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2005 : 10:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
You also have to remember, though, that the majority of Drow in Eilistraee's faithful are females. That means that the population might not grow as the numbers are not very balanced.
C-Fb
Of this I am not sure it is true, many well known of Eilistraee followers are indeed female of which some have consorts (or at least affairs). Even if it was true, Elven society does not require or expect marriage before having a child. Also last time I checked only females give birth to children. In a few generations (inferring equal or near equal ratio of male to female birth rate) the male to female ratio would become near equal in a few generations. I once did a calculation of low female to male civilization and in 5 generations the genders reached near parity ratio. It is harder to achieve parity with too few females then too many. A female can only be pregnent from one male, a male can get many females pregnent at about the same time. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 14:52:38
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True, but not many drow males would be willing to law with an Eilistraeean priestess. I know that Elven society does not require marriage to reproduce - but unless the males are being passed around (very Lolthian), most times the societies are mentioned there is an extreme shortage of men involved.
And where I agree with you about the genetics and mechanics of it all, I just doubt that a society that so abhors Lolthians would go around and practice the same use of males for breeding, but that is just my opinion.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 17:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
True, but not many drow males would be willing to law with an Eilistraeean priestess. I know that Elven society does not require marriage to reproduce - but unless the males are being passed around (very Lolthian), most times the societies are mentioned there is an extreme shortage of men involved.
And where I agree with you about the genetics and mechanics of it all, I just doubt that a society that so abhors Lolthians would go around and practice the same use of males for breeding, but that is just my opinion.
C-Fb
I do not recall any Eilistraee official society provided with a detail breakdown of population.
Sanctuary does have a breakdown, but as far as I recall that is fan base. The cummunity has 13 priestesses, Enigma (male), Knights of Twilight (barely 12 in number, a mixed gender organization). There are others living there some could follow Eilistraee, however it is also posible they could follow one of the other religions that have clerics there. Anyway it would appear these known might be a raito of 3-4 to one female/male so it is posible that other communities might have the same ratio, I however consider this unlikely. Reasons why I believe male to female raito would be more even are based on a few beliefs.
Lolthian patrols are often mostly men, often lead by a Priestress of Lolth and those most likely to engage in battle with Eilistraeens. As Eilistraee says no Drow should die unless Evil the use of sleep poison would render many males sleeping, the Lolth Priestess likely killed (of course this inffers an Eilistraee win). Those taken prisoner would be offered the message and the choice to convert. In a society of equality (or near equality), the danger of returning to their House reporting their leader was killed (reporting failure almost certainly means pain and often a painful death) there would be no incentive for these to want to leave their captures, whom would become their protectors. Oh I am sure that some of the captured males (perhaps even over 50 percent) would have be killed for not being willing to give up evil ways, provides new potential mates. Even if getting one male a month per Priestess (or even .5 per month) the supply of males is large for any community. Of Drow that follow Lolth, those most likely to convert will be males, the least likely females because of the shift in power between the two genders. There also will be males of the human race attracted because of the Exotic (some say Erotic) image a Drow gives. There will be a good supply of males in my opinion.
Now to the concern about using males as breeding stock. Yes it is true that a Lolthian males will be told whom to mate with and when. In an Eilistraee society I consider it much more likely that a male would get to choose wom to mate with as long as the female was willing, the reverse also being true of course (no females will order a male to mate with them). Thus I picture something along the line of a male trying to decide of a few (or at least two) whom he wants to be with and speaking such concern, being told that there is no need to choose. That in many ways it might look like a plural marriage or a sexual free for all to outsiders eyes. That many of both males and females will have more then one mate at a time, it of course will depend on the individuals but free choice and blessings being given to lovers and acts of love makes this very posible. As it is in general FR is not sexually represted as to things like a crime to have an affair and deity that supports acts of love certainly would be even less condemning of having many lovers.
Of course I would expect there would be pairings for some as a permerment relationship as a couple, however I could even see these couples accepting something like "If you are not with the one you love, love the one you are with."
Each society of course can develpe their own rules and not all might follow the concept I picture. I just consider it more likely based on the dogma that rather then force a male or female to stay with one when there is desire, at least from time to time, to also be with another. Freedom to choose, though there is the restaint of not making others uncomfortable. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2005 : 23:59:28
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You make very good points, Kentinal. I was just thinking that the males used as breeding stock (whether forced or chosen) is a fact that many Drow females have come to accept (Lolth dictates, Eilistraeeans get the left overs, per se).
You are right about the converts - being most likely more male that female, but for example, look at Ryld. He never could quite grasp the concept. All males won't switch to Eilistraee just because of the Gender Quality. Think of all the males who have clawed their way up the ranks. A lot to give up just for "equality."
However, I think you are mostly spot on with how the relationships would occur within an Eilistraeean group. There can't be too many choices as we know her followers aren't that numerous. Ah well, poor Drow male who converts!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2005 : 23:13:23
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| Some males , may also have issues with converting to Eilistaree. You know she, being a godess, just a like her mom Lloth, whom most males probably don't like. I know that she is good, but males are going to be suspicious (come one , they are drow) and as such, they might not belivie. Not to mentions that some roles are only opem to women. Males are going to be hesitant, imho. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2005 : 23:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Indirian
Some males , may also have issues with converting to Eilistaree. You know she, being a godess, just a like her mom Lloth, whom most males probably don't like. I know that she is good, but males are going to be suspicious (come one , they are drow) and as such, they might not belivie. Not to mentions that some roles are only opem to women. Males are going to be hesitant, imho.
Well remember all males will not be Drow, but indeed as indicated high ranked Lolthian Drow males might not like a more equal status. I clearly picture that rank would still exist, just that rank will not matter nearly as much. As for trading one female deity for another I do not see that as an issue, most Real World deities are depicted as male figures and there appears little problem with females converting from one belief to another. Yes trust can be an issue, but that applies to anything, trust is earned over time no matter what the issue is. As for gender rolls the only clear statement of class that a male can not take, the Sword Dancer (there is strong support that males still can not be Clerics either) put out by WotC.
Males might be hesitant, but those facing a certain death as oposed to staying around with a few naked Priestess that will protect them, should at least provide fresh blood and posible converts as well. Eilistraee does not require eveyone in the communityworship her, in fact se has provided minor divine aid to those that follow other deities.
From 2nd "Eilistraee sometimes manifests to a worshiper or nonworshiper who honors her with a solitary dance as a silver radiance that transforms the recipient's hair into a mane of silver fire for a month or even permanently."
She looks with favor on good aligned Drow, even if they do not follow her.
"Strangers are your friends. The homeless must be given shelter from
storms, under your own roof if need be. Repay rudeness with kindness.
Repay violence with swift violence, that the fewest may be hurt and
danger fast removed from the land." |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2006 : 17:49:21
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Rewakens this thread as it appears to be the best one to discuss with RevJezt this question asked of Ed.
quote:
What other gods can/do good drow elves turn to?
In part the question was answered, it appears only about 10 ro 12 percent are fully dedicated to the Dark Maiden, the other 10 or so percent clearly will venerate Vhaeraun to some extent (espcially on a spy mission) though Ed indicates one could not venerate both of them equally and well serve either deity. There are some aspects of these two deities that dogma calls for the same thing, Drow living on the surface, giving aid to those in trouble (Though Vhaeraunites are required only to aid followers of Vhaeraun). Mielikki clearly could recive veneration by those hunting and by those Rangers. Allies of Eilistraee clearly could be given worship to some degree of another.
It is hard to picture one giving worship to Lolth and Eilistraee, but perhas a good Drow raising spiders for spider silk might in some small way offer veneration to that depraved Deity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 01 Oct 2008 01:36:13 |
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Eilistraee societies
