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thomas b.
Acolyte
24 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2005 : 05:16:42
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i thought this book was excellent but i would like to know how you feel about it . the good and the bad
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THOMAS BENJAMIN |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 05:43:44
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Liriel is pure fun.
The look at drow culture through a female's eyes was very welcome. There's only so much "omg I'm an oppressed male wah WAH" I can take, and Liriel's perspective was refreshing. It's not as if her life is an entirely happy one -- the short story in Realms of the Underdark certainly shows that -- but she's determined to survive and enjoy life while at it. She doesn't angst about her morals for pages on end, and for the most part, her actions speak for themselves, which I like far more. It's all showing instead of shove-down-your-throat telling that afflicts way too many writers.
And Liriel has flaws. Drow society has affected her views on life, and she doesn't emerge from it squeaky clean. Even more surprisingly, her actions have consequences. She doesn't get off scott-free and doesn't achieve a fluffy happily ever after. People, and important people at that, actually die around her and, sometimes, in part because of her. She makes mistakes, and pays for them. There's no "author's darling" padding to soften the blow. Best of all, during the course of her trilogy, she becomes different and develops in a completely beliveable way.
Liriel's got a few Mary Sueish traits, but apart from that, I loved the books. I still re-read them now and again. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 12:26:02
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| I loved Liriel and Fyodor. Fyodor was really facinating to me. I loved his sense of humor and his sense of honor, and I loved how he could be shocked by Liriel and yet still had the wit to roll with the punches. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 12:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
And Liriel has flaws. Drow society has affected her views on life, and she doesn't emerge from it squeaky clean. Even more surprisingly, her actions have consequences. She doesn't get off scott-free and doesn't achieve a fluffy happily ever after. People, and important people at that, actually die around her and, sometimes, in part because of her. She makes mistakes, and pays for them. There's no "author's darling" padding to soften the blow. Best of all, during the course of her trilogy, she becomes different and develops in a completely beliveable way.
That is refreshing to find isn't it? I'll echo Winterfox's feelings towars the novel/trilogy and add that it would be nice to see WOTC focus on future tales for this evolving character rather than static characters found in other stories. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 12:58:35
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Excellent book, I agree. However, I have one huge problem with it:
The exceptional dumbing down of a great, competent villain for that stupid witch Shakti.
Nisstyre was an excellently developed character with a good personality...Shakti has 'GRRRRR! Praise Lolth, kill Liriel!'...I miss anything? She do anything else? of course, she comes out on top and her gullability and stupidity end up screwing everything to hell for the Dragon's Hoarde |
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thomas b.
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 15:49:18
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| i agree with you all .i fonound these books were great .ive been trying to get my aunt to read them but the drizzt series ruined forgotten realms in her eyes |
THOMAS BENJAMIN |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 19:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Excellent book, I agree. However, I have one huge problem with it:
The exceptional dumbing down of a great, competent villain for that stupid witch Shakti.
Nisstyre was an excellently developed character with a good personality...Shakti has 'GRRRRR! Praise Lolth, kill Liriel!'...I miss anything? She do anything else? of course, she comes out on top and her gullability and stupidity end up screwing everything to hell for the Dragon's Hoarde
Ah, Shakti.
There are few realms villains who can make me REALLY mad, but she is certainly on that list. I was furious
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
when she survived and returned to menzo, ESPECIALLY after killing Qilues daughter!!!!!!!!! |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 18:51:19
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| There is hope: She got slaughtered by Nimor Imphraezl during the Silence, I'm sure...check that, she was devoured morsel by morsel by him while Zammzt plucked her fingers off |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 10:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
There is hope: She got slaughtered by Nimor Imphraezl during the Silence, I'm sure...check that, she was devoured morsel by morsel by him while Zammzt plucked her fingers off
Did that really happen? Please tell me it really happened! |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 13:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
There is hope: She got slaughtered by Nimor Imphraezl during the Silence, I'm sure...check that, she was devoured morsel by morsel by him while Zammzt plucked her fingers off
Did that really happen? Please tell me it really happened!
Wishful thinking. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 17:10:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
There is hope: She got slaughtered by Nimor Imphraezl during the Silence, I'm sure...check that, she was devoured morsel by morsel by him while Zammzt plucked her fingers off
Did that really happen? Please tell me it really happened!
Wishful thinking.
Damn. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 21:10:47
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It did not happen. Sorry.
But do you really think that, where Shakti's ultimate fate is concerned, she should be let off so lightly?  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:48:03
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Eliane, since you checked in I just have to say, you are so awesome, and not just because some of what you write oddly enough helps me to understand my Polish fiance, lol.
I love your writing and never seem to be able to coherantly form a message whenever I read your thread . . . so just . . . thanks! |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 16:11:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
It did not happen. Sorry.
But do you really think that, where Shakti's ultimate fate is concerned, she should be let off so lightly?
I simply think that if someone would ask me to pick one FR villain to kill off, in canon, from Fzoul to kymil Nimesin, I would pick Shakti.
I can`t explain why but something about her just rubs me the wrong way. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 00:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Eliane, since you checked in I just have to say, you are so awesome, and not just because some of what you write oddly enough helps me to understand my Polish fiance, lol.
Hi, KE. Thanks for the kind word. I've got to say, that's one of the oddest compliments my writing has received, and a hands-on favorite. Daughter of the Drow aka Liriel's Guide to Dating the Slavic. Heh. Who knew?
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 00:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I simply think that if someone would ask me to pick one FR villain to kill off, in canon, from Fzoul to kymil Nimesin, I would pick Shakti.
I can`t explain why but something about her just rubs me the wrong way.
It's good to know that Shakti is doing her job. :)
I think the main reason Shakti is so annoying is that she's banal. Common. Fantasy villians generally have an epic quality--they're brilliant or handsome or incomparable fighters or fiendishly clever wizards. Shaki, on the other hand, is a bureaucrat. She's a capable administrator and an expert at breeding rothe cattle. She's also plump, near-sighted, and humorless. At school, she's definitely not one of the cool kids. Yet this undeserving plodder rises through the ranks, gets the attention of powerful drow in Menzoberranzan--not to mention two of the drow dieties--and becomes a high priestess and heir to her House. She has a lot in common with that dull B student in high school who ends up a corporate executive, to the amazement and dismay of all who work for her. In short, she's not the sort of person you want to root for. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 03:47:59
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| heh, that and she tends to mess everything up for the confident bad guys...why Vhaeraun gave her power over Nisstyre I'll never be able to puzzle out |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 11:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
heh, that and she tends to mess everything up for the confident bad guys...why Vhaeraun gave her power over Nisstyre I'll never be able to puzzle out
That's because you're not thinking liking a drow diety. What's one drow male, compared to an opportunity to subvert a priestess of Lloth? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 12:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
That's because you're not thinking liking a drow diety. What's one drow male, compared to an opportunity to subvert a priestess of Lloth?
Not to mention doing something that would upset your mother....yes Vhaeraun would have fun with such an action. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 15:39:35
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| Lolth didn't have many issues...and the Dragons Hoard wasn't a bright mark on Shakti's record...if not for her, Nisstyre'd have had killed Liriel, possibly been able to impact the battle further...getting rid of such a loyal, competant servant for a banal dolt like Shakti irked me... |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 20:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I simply think that if someone would ask me to pick one FR villain to kill off, in canon, from Fzoul to kymil Nimesin, I would pick Shakti.
I can`t explain why but something about her just rubs me the wrong way.
It's good to know that Shakti is doing her job. :)
I think the main reason Shakti is so annoying is that she's banal. Common. Fantasy villians generally have an epic quality--they're brilliant or handsome or incomparable fighters or fiendishly clever wizards. Shaki, on the other hand, is a bureaucrat. She's a capable administrator and an expert at breeding rothe cattle. She's also plump, near-sighted, and humorless. At school, she's definitely not one of the cool kids. Yet this undeserving plodder rises through the ranks, gets the attention of powerful drow in Menzoberranzan--not to mention two of the drow dieties--and becomes a high priestess and heir to her House. She has a lot in common with that dull B student in high school who ends up a corporate executive, to the amazement and dismay of all who work for her. In short, she's not the sort of person you want to root for.
umm.....that`s not the main reason why I am so angry with her. If I really had to select a cause it would be her being responsible for Qilues daughters death, and partly responsible for Fyodors. I guess if I was a cleric I would follow Hoar. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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LordEverhate
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 18:03:05
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I love the entire series, but then I love the drow. :) I would like to see Liriel stay evil, though...who says you can't be evil and help people at the same time? It's just a momentary lapse of judgement. ;)
Really, good drow have been done to death and then beaten like a horse by Salvatore. It'd be nice to keep Liriel a 'dark hero' rather than a paladin-like self hater. |
Shawn Muder
Realms of Evil
http://www.realmsofevil.net/
EN World Newshound
http://www.enworld.org/ |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 22:51:20
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Um . . . RAS's good drow roster . . . Drizzt . . . um . . .
All Realms authors combined good drow roster . . .
Drizzt
Liriel
Quilue Veladorn and her temple staff in UnderMountain
The Elistraeans in the Velarswood
Sometimes I think the amount of coverage of ONE good drow mistakenly leads to the assumption that there are a lot more, but I could be wrong . . .
Even in RAS last series, which wasn't my favorite, there were 4 evil drow versus one good one portrayed. Even if the was a representitive sample, thats a 80/20 split there. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 23:13:54
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There are a few more good Drow, however yes the evil ones outnumber them in lititure and in system source books. The goo tend to win over evil, though as seen WotSQ they also fail.
As for product sales there is an old rule that tends to apply.
Dog bites human is not a story because it happens often.
Human bites dog is uncomon event ad wother of becoming a matter of note, perhaps to be reported and included in on going lore.
"Good Drow" books sell because they are the exception not the rule. The human bites dog.
As for the over all cenus of good Drow the percentage appears to still be very low and they certainly lose often.
As for Velarswood there is clear conflict as to that community actions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 05:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by LordEverhate
I love the entire series, but then I love the drow. :) I would like to see Liriel stay evil, though...who says you can't be evil and help people at the same time? It's just a momentary lapse of judgement. ;)
I don't really see Liriel in good/evil terms. She's morally ambigious is how I would describe her. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 05:29:44
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Personally I'd say that the trilogy really is about Liriel's journey from, as Sirius put it, "morally ambigious" to a fairly good person. And the reason I like this is because of the way it's told, not in the "Oh I think I'll be good from now on" kind of way, but rather that it is something that grows inside her, as well as the fact that it's not a straight path she's walking.
Oh... And please let someone at the WoTC book department decide we need at least one more book about her. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 12:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Oh... And please let someone at the WoTC book department decide we need at least one more book about her.
From your lips to.... |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 22:51:07
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Well, I wouldn't mind a book.. but it doesn't necessary have to be just Liriel. I really enjoyed her new "friends"... I can't remember the mixed blooded elf with the moon horse's name (at work, no access to book :( )., but I really loved Thorn and would love to read more about the Lythari... they seem cool.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 05:38:38
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| There's a lythari supporting character in Silver Shadows if you haven't read it yet. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 22:22:27
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At First:
Elaine, i must thank you ver much for writing the story of Liriel.The books of Liriel are tremendous. The character is so good.
She has power, and shes funny often. Fyodor is nice character too.
(that was perhaps a little out of this topic)
But yes, Daughter of The Drow is one of my favourite books in the Realms. Book's area is nice. I like mages, and Liriel shows very wide collection of spells. The story contains very much clever tricks by E.Cunningham. |
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Book Discussion: Daughter of the Drow
