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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
 Posted - 30 May 2005 : 02:30:27
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Just wondering who smiles upon the Harpers? I can't seem to remember any of them right now and it's a little aggervating! :)
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"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 02:46:06
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| Are you asking what deities or cultures favor the Harpers. To me you question is not clear. Many people or even groups of people can smile that Harpers are around. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rivalen
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 03:07:54
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| Who knows Tymora may have been secretly smiling on the Harpers? For the Harpers most of the time relied on luck to accomplish their objectives. |
Fight to win, but donlt fight too long or for glorious tales. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 03:13:59
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If we are taking about deities, we know that there are priests of many faiths (most notably Azuth, Deneir, Eldath, Lliira, Mielikki, Milil, Mystra, Oghma, Selune, Silvanus, Tymora, and many of the elven deities) who choose to wear the silver harp proudly. This would suggest that these Powers at least consider the good work that the Harpers are doing to be a necessary element in the Realms.
Of course, there is also the deity-conferred special powers on Master Harpers, granted at the Dancing Place. Such deities as Deneir, Eldath, and most of the other gods I listed above have all participated in this special blessing.
Further details on these deities with regard to the Harpers, as well as notable Harper allies, can be found in the 2e Code of the Harpers tome.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Cyric-The-Insane
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 15:02:29
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| Who cares.. Cyric does not favor those foul elves and humans who must stick their nose in everyones affairs.. so they shall all be dead soon anywase! |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 21:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric-The-Insane
Who cares.. Cyric does not favor those foul elves and humans who must stick their nose in everyones affairs.. so they shall all be dead soon anywase!
And returning to the question, I agree that the gods "smiling" to the Harpers are, most of them, Mystra, who is defined in SoA as a "friend" of the Harpers. And followed by Deneir, Oghma, Lliira, Tymora and the most of the elvish deities. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 31 May 2005 22:16:40 |
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Defender
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 13:35:22
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| Pardon if I ask this, which organization among these two-the Harpers and Moonstars- are more powerful, flexible and has the most numbers in their ranks? |
Justice is swift and will strike when you least expect it. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 14:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Defender
Pardon if I ask this, which organization among these two-the Harpers and Moonstars- are more powerful, flexible and has the most numbers in their ranks?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dnd_features_nav.asp?L=FR_PG offers some background, though not directly answer your question.
Due to the age of the Moonstars the membership would appear to be smaller in numbers. The power level more likely favors the Harpers also though of course the Moonstars have some very powerful members. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 14:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Defender
Pardon if I ask this, which organization among these two-the Harpers and Moonstars- are more powerful, flexible and has the most numbers in their ranks?
I think Harpers have many, many more members than the Moonstars. Also, they are probably more 'powerful', if you think about numbers and levels. In certain areas Khelben may have more political influence than the Harpers. Remember that the Moonstars have been recruiting heavily, and most of their members ARE powerful individuals, who have their own diplomatic/political allies.
I would say that the Moonstars are more flexible than the Harpers, but to get a good picture of how they work, I suggest reading Cloak & Dagger and Code of the Harpers. Those prestige classes from Player´s Guide, FRCS and MoF may also be helpful. I am not sure if there is any 'organisation description' about either of them in 3e/3.5e? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 14:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Due to the age of the Moonstars the membership would appear to be smaller in numbers. The power level more likely favors the Harpers also though of course the Moonstars have some very powerful members.
In addition, the Harpers have had the benefit of time.
They've been able to establish secure continent-spanning information/spy networks and informant networks. Also they've spent time making long term connections with similar organisations and adventuring companies. The Harpers can also draw upon the assistance of many of their secret operative who they have likely also been able to previously sneak into some of the most established and significant power groups and/or nations within the Realms.
While the Moonstars probably also have access to some of these facilities, their overall mandate and techniques might make some of their current allies question that relationship as time progresses. These allies simply may grow uncomfortable with them...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 15:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Due to the age of the Moonstars the membership would appear to be smaller in numbers. The power level more likely favors the Harpers also though of course the Moonstars have some very powerful members.
In addition, the Harpers have had the benefit of time.
They've been able to establish secure continent-spanning information/spy networks and informant networks. Also they've spent time making long term connections with similar organisations and adventuring companies. The Harpers can also draw upon the assistance of many of their secret operative who they have likely also been able to previously sneak into some of the most established and significant power groups and/or nations within the Realms.
While the Moonstars probably also have access to some of these facilities, their overall mandate and techniques might make some of their current allies question that relationship as time progresses. These allies simply may grow uncomfortable with them...
Well noted. Though I would add that as some prominent Harpers have quit and joined the Moonstars, those spy/informant networks may have some 'strands' missing now. Still, Harpers have had a lot of time establishing them, and I think they have always had 'back-up'-plans for different situations (in case of casualties of operatives, for example). So maybe these 'losses' are not so significant?
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 17:15:51
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The Tel'Teukiira do have a couple of serious advantages, though, that the Harpers lack. One is that many of the members have a certain moral flexibility that the Harpers would never condone. Another advantage is that the Harpers are more of a large, committee-run organization, while the Tel'Teukiira is a smaller organization with a small and distinct chain of command.
The Moonstars are likely more powerful in Waterdeep than the Harpers, but not so much, elsewhere.
It also wouldn't surprise me to find out that some Moonstars are still Harpers, as well, and that they've used Harper assets to accomplish Moonstar goals. Additionally, former Harpers may still have access to Harper-friendly contacts that either don't know about the Schism or simply don't care. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 18:15:00
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| They are much more flexible than the harpers indeed, and they even have vampires in their ranks. Hmmm........I see endless opportunities here that would not have been possible with the harpers. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 00:50:22
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| Given there are vampires serving under the Moonstars, I wonder how will the recent events in Westgate where the Faceless One(A vampiric Manshoon clone) activities will draw the attention of every vampire on Faerun where they see Westgate as a new possible kingdom and capital of the vampires. Will those vampires serving under the Moonstars swap loyalties in favor of a new better life in Westgate under The Faceless one? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 02:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Given there are vampires serving under the Moonstars, I wonder how will the recent events in Westgate where the Faceless One(A vampiric Manshoon clone) activities will draw the attention of every vampire on Faerun where they see Westgate as a new possible kingdom and capital of the vampires. Will those vampires serving under the Moonstars swap loyalties in favor of a new better life in Westgate under The Faceless one?
Does Elisstraee's Followers decide to suddenly join the Drow Pantheon? No. So, if the Moonstars are good and the Vampires that serve under are good, I would say they stay and if anything, you can create a fun little Moonstar Vamp V. Westgate Vamp battle ;) |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 02:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It also wouldn't surprise me to find out that some Moonstars are still Harpers, as well, and that they've used Harper assets to accomplish Moonstar goals. Additionally, former Harpers may still have access to Harper-friendly contacts that either don't know about the Schism or simply don't care.
For the most part, there's probably a fair few Harper allies who are simply willing to ignore the methods the Moonstars utilise in order to perform their duties. To these factions, it is the overall results which actually amount to something, not the methods used to generate them.
In addition, the Harpers have probably chosen to avoid relations with certain elements because of the Harpers view on proper conduct. At the same time, these elements may have chosen to seek out the Moonstars in the hopes of fostering some type of relationship which would be unhindered by the stricter moral interpretations that are inherent within the Harper methodology.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 04:31:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Given there are vampires serving under the Moonstars, I wonder how will the recent events in Westgate where the Faceless One(A vampiric Manshoon clone) activities will draw the attention of every vampire on Faerun where they see Westgate as a new possible kingdom and capital of the vampires. Will those vampires serving under the Moonstars swap loyalties in favor of a new better life in Westgate under The Faceless one?
Does Elisstraee's Followers decide to suddenly join the Drow Pantheon? No. So, if the Moonstars are good and the Vampires that serve under are good, I would say they stay and if anything, you can create a fun little Moonstar Vamp V. Westgate Vamp battle ;)
One of the vampires is a former Harper. He's LE, but still loyal to Khelben. The other one is in Calimshan, and there's not much info beyond that.
Any vampire that decides to take on the Night King might as well spend a day on the beach, instead. It'll be less painful but have the same result. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 16:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Given there are vampires serving under the Moonstars, I wonder how will the recent events in Westgate where the Faceless One(A vampiric Manshoon clone) activities will draw the attention of every vampire on Faerun where they see Westgate as a new possible kingdom and capital of the vampires. Will those vampires serving under the Moonstars swap loyalties in favor of a new better life in Westgate under The Faceless one?
Does Elisstraee's Followers decide to suddenly join the Drow Pantheon? No. So, if the Moonstars are good and the Vampires that serve under are good, I would say they stay and if anything, you can create a fun little Moonstar Vamp V. Westgate Vamp battle ;)
One of the vampires is a former Harper. He's LE, but still loyal to Khelben. The other one is in Calimshan, and there's not much info beyond that.
Any vampire that decides to take on the Night King might as well spend a day on the beach, instead. It'll be less painful but have the same result.
Vampires are just as individual as living folk except in terms of those sired by another vampire (whom they must serve, if I remember the rules correctly). Besides, who would want to live where there's a lot more competition within one's hunting grounds? Besides, y'all don't know how or why those vampires work with/for Khelben, and he's not telling.
Khelben looks upon the vampires (and others with that certain "moral flexibility") akin to one moment from a fun movie THE COMMITTMENTS:
"He's our new drummer."
"But he's a savage!"
"Yeah, but he's OUR savage." 
Steven
Who's quite glad that there's still curiosity and discussion re: the tel'Teukiira a few years after the fact...even though he's got no idea where WotC plans to take them...
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 16:51:11
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| Unfortunately Steven, it looks like their big plan is to state that they exist then ignore them for a few years . . . its been working for them so far, lol. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 17:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Who's quite glad that there's still curiosity and discussion re: the tel'Teukiira a few years after the fact...even though he's got no idea where WotC plans to take them...
Hopefully we'll see some new info on them in the Waterdeep book... Either that one or the forthcoming Champions of Valor. I really, really want to see an update to this group -- they're my fave power group in the Realms. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 18:25:47
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| Steve, this may sound stupid but I really don`t know this, why did you leave WOTC? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 02:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Who's quite glad that there's still curiosity and discussion re: the tel'Teukiira a few years after the fact...even though he's got no idea where WotC plans to take them...
Hopefully we'll see some new info on them in the Waterdeep book... Either that one or the forthcoming Champions of Valor. I really, really want to see an update to this group -- they're my fave power group in the Realms.
I'm with Wooly.
And SS, there's hardly a fortnight that goes by that I don't receive an email or a PM here asking me what I know about the recent activities of the Tel'Teukiira. Interest is still very much alive and well...  .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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monch9
Seeker
Poland
67 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 05:16:15
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Well, I think there's a mention of the Moonstar Agent PRC in the preview. So, there's going to be a PRC writeup that should have some Realmslore in it.
Monch
From the Preview :
quote:
Chapter Three provides access to a small handful of new prestige classes, including the Gray Hand Enforcer and Moon Star Agent. Chapter Four tours you through the various and sundry areas of Waterdeep, exploring each of the city's eight Wards (providing map location information for notable structures within each.) Chapter Five: Adventures in Waterdeep offers up a wealth of Things to Do for characters -- from dangerous sections of the city to the dungeons and sewers of the City of Splendors, the hazards to be found above and below the city streets are almost limitless. This is the section of the book that touches on the vast subterranean dangerfest known as Undermountain
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 02:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Steve, this may sound stupid but I really don`t know this, why did you leave WOTC?
It's not a stupid question, but you'll likely be unsatisfied by my answer--I left for personal reasons and embarked on a freelance career that, in retrospect, could have gone better. I'm back in Wisconsin now working for an educational publisher and enjoying myself a lot more than the previous few years.
And that's enough about me, seeing as how off-topic this post is, unless I suddenly confess to being able to play a harp.
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 02:18:31
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quote:
And that's enough about me, seeing as how off-topic this post is, unless I suddenly confess to being able to play a harp.
That's something I'd like to see ...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Jun 2005 02:19:29 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 02:29:21
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Start with a hand harp, the octive streches are less difficult.
Of course one is limited by the range of tones the wires provide. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 05:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And that's enough about me, seeing as how off-topic this post is, unless I suddenly confess to being able to play a harp.
SES
Ah, but how many of Those Who Harp truly play the harp? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 13:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And that's enough about me, seeing as how off-topic this post is, unless I suddenly confess to being able to play a harp.
SES
Ah, but how many of Those Who Harp truly play the harp?
You force my hand to explain why Khelben really left the Harpers and formed the Moonstars--
He can't play the harp, but he did fall in love with kazoos from his first trip to Earth! |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 17:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And that's enough about me, seeing as how off-topic this post is, unless I suddenly confess to being able to play a harp.
SES
Ah, but how many of Those Who Harp truly play the harp?
You force my hand to explain why Khelben really left the Harpers and formed the Moonstars--
He can't play the harp, but he did fall in love with kazoos from his first trip to Earth!
Somehow, I just can't quite imagine Khelben playing a kazoo... But I can imagine Danilo annoying him with one!  |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2005 : 17:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, but how many of Those Who Harp truly play the harp?
You force my hand to explain why Khelben really left the Harpers and formed the Moonstars--
He can't play the harp, but he did fall in love with kazoos from his first trip to Earth!
Somehow, I just can't quite imagine Khelben playing a kazoo... But I can imagine Danilo annoying him with one!
Bagpipes, perhaps? ;) |
Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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The Harpers
