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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2005 : 00:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Unless of course she cut a deal with a devil, so to speak . . .
I could well believe that. I think she would be quite willing to pay any price for a new chance to scour the accursed humans out of the Wolf Woods...
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 00:26:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Also I don't buy the Mystra example because that is a whole different set of rules.
Yes, it is a different set of rules. Still, it was never Ed“s decision to thrust that role on her, as shown in the next two quotes (actually, from those marvelous files of yours  )
"Originally, Lurue WAS magic-before Julia Martin added the name Weave to my GenCon explanations of the great web of magic thats everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril, Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave."
"The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways."
So saith Ed of the Greenwood 
Yup and TSR is the one that started this slide towards a monotheism Faerun pantheon. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 01:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yup and TSR is the one that started this slide towards a monotheism Faerun pantheon. :)
They thought it was more "natural" for human deities to have a central place in the pantheon, since humans were the "superior" race in ad&d rules. Now that this is no longer the case with 3.x edition rules, maybe it was time to see a more balanced cosmology in Faerun? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 01:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
They thought it was more "natural" for human deities to have a central place in the pantheon, since humans were the "superior" race in ad&d rules. Now that this is no longer the case with 3.x edition rules, maybe it was time to see a more balanced cosmology in Faerun?
I'd hope so but it doesn't look like it and WOTC made it worse by saying all souls that are Faithless and False are judged by Kel. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 01:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Some of the discussion on the Cormyr Campaign forums made me wonder. I know that according to the Avatar Trilogy of books that halfling souls go to the fugue plane was well. This would lead me to assume that all souls go there, at least long enough for the proper god to "collect" them.
What I was thinking was . . . I have a hard time picturing a dragon soul just laguishing on the Fugue Plane . . . or a beholder . . . and what about Phaerimm? Maybe there is a "back door" to the Fugue Plane, and not all of the souls of the dead approach the Crystal Spire from the same route?
Just wondering . . . and the irony is that the initial soul that made me wonder would actually have been elvish, not draconic, lol.
I have a VERY hard time thinking about those poor, Faithless Phaerimm being sent to the Wall 
Or the dragons, who were Faithless or False. Should the Tarrasque be slain, would Kel also get to judge it? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 01:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I have a VERY hard time thinking about those poor, Faithless Phaerimm being sent to the Wall
Or the dragons, who were Faithless or False. Should the Tarrasque be slain, would Kel also get to judge it?
If they have spirits/souls and they don't have deities or turn thier back on deities, then by the lore as written, yes.
Which is one of the reasons I dislike the whole Faithless and False. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 26 May 2005 01:53:14 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 01:58:33
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I understand the fact which has been pointed out many times on this thread. Indeed, in "Canon" Realmslore Kelemvor may be the Supreme Judge of Souls. I just donĀ“t recall any reference to Myrkul being responsible for ALL the Faithless or the False before the novel "Waterdeep" came out.
Ed has said that it is hard for mortals to understand the motives of the gods. Quote:"Aside from the Time of Troubles, almost all divine doings happen offstage anyway, and mortals have no way to be certain of the truth of anything theyāre told about them.".
IMHO he probably tries to say that each DM has "creative room" here, adapting different aspects/cults/gods into his campaign as he/she sees fit. Hence my point being that the "truth" about Afterlife and the affairs of deities may vary a lot from "Canon" Realmslore in everyoneĀ“s own Realms.
In my gaming group we were quite appalled about KelemvorĀ“s Ascension to godhood, and voted to ignore this in favor of Cyric - no matter what the books/accessories say. So in "our Faerun" Cyric is still the God of Death, and Kel remains imprisoned within Godsbane - may he rot there forever  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 02:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by AsgetrionIn my gaming group we were quite appalled about KelemvorĀ“s Ascension to godhood, and voted to ignore this in favor of Cyric - no matter what the books/accessories say. So in "our Faerun" Cyric is still the God of Death, and Kel remains imprisoned within Godsbane - may he rot there forever
True enough. :) I'm just pointing out how it works now per the lore we have and how much I dislike it.
I don't even use those concepts in my FR but it still bugs me that TSR and WOTC screwed with FR's afterlife. Hells I don't even use the ToT's or most of the RSE's because they are just to much to keep up with. Besides I liked half the deities that TSR killed off, they are better then those pansy three that got raised up. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 02:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I have a VERY hard time thinking about those poor, Faithless Phaerimm being sent to the Wall
Or the dragons, who were Faithless or False. Should the Tarrasque be slain, would Kel also get to judge it?
If they have spirits/souls and they don't have deities or turn thier back on deities, then by the lore as written, yes.
Which is one of the reasons I dislike the whole Faithless and False. :)
True :) I don“t think Ed had ever thought about that in much detail.
The concepts of the Faithless and the False/Fugue Plain probably had to be created for the City of the Dead-scene in the “Waterdeep“-novel.
And then it was made part of the official cosmology. Now WoTC has stirred things up with that "Kel judges all the FaF"-idea...
Ed seems to have always preferred to sort of evade religious issues as much as possible (with the exception of those deities that PCs worshipped).
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 02:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
True :) I don“t think Ed had ever thought about that in much detail.
The concepts of the Faithless and the False/Fugue Plain probably had to be created for the City of the Dead-scene in the “Waterdeep“-novel.
And then it was made part of the official cosmology. Now WoTC has stirred things up with that "Kel judges all the FaF"-idea...
Ed seems to have always preferred to sort of evade religious issues as much as possible (with the exception of those deities that PCs worshipped).
I don't know. He might have thought out a whole different afterlife but never detailed it nor wanted to because as you say, he doesn't like talking about the affairs of the deities.
But 2e's was a little better then 3e's but oh well. FR's canon afterlife has been messed up since the switch to 2e. I prefer 1e's version which was souls go to thier deities, pantheons, or the planes.
There was none of this Faithless and False garbage. Especially in FR where there are cults. If you think about it all the souls that are part of the Cult of the Dragon would be stuck in the wall or judged by Kel because a lot of them don't worship a deity.... All the rest of the mortals that are parts of cults are screwed as well. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 02:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But 2e's was a little better then 3e's but oh well. FR's canon afterlife has been messed up since the switch to 2e. I prefer 1e's version which was souls go to thier deities, pantheons, or the planes.
I'd have to agree with you, at least for the most part, on that particular subject.
The structure of the 1e afterlife was always a lot more neater, and easier to play around with it you wanted to try something wholly different but still keep the original feel to the afterlife. Its entire organisation was always relative to the deities and pantheons themselves, and the planes were just as important.
But, I also enjoy the addition of the Faithless and the False. It adds depth to the entire concept of the afterlife by the fact that not everything is always static.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 03:26:05
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I'm not so sure that the wrong people might not be villainized here. TSR might have begun to quantify and detail the rules behind this, but I think that the afterlife and the specifics of it were detailed more by James Lowder than the mandates of TSR (yes, know the Fugue Plane showed up first, but the faithless, false, and such appeared first in Prince of Lies).
Also, I think its worth pointing out that I don't think that the Realms polytheistic metaphysical structure is suppose to, nor should it, resemeble a real world polytheistic religeon any more than the monotheistic examples in Deities and Demigods are meant to resemble monotheistic faiths in the real world.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not so sure that the wrong people might not be villainized here. TSR might have begun to quantify and detail the rules behind this, but I think that the afterlife and the specifics of it were detailed more by James Lowder than the mandates of TSR (yes, know the Fugue Plane showed up first, but the faithless, false, and such appeared first in Prince of Lies).
Let“s blame it all on James |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
True enough. :) I'm just pointing out how it works now per the lore we have and how much I dislike it.
I don't even use those concepts in my FR but it still bugs me that TSR and WOTC screwed with FR's afterlife. Hells I don't even use the ToT's or most of the RSE's because they are just to much to keep up with. Besides I liked half the deities that TSR killed off, they are better then those pansy three that got raised up. :)
How true! I just loved the good ol' Myrkul... with all that Crown of Horns-stuff (including the Mere of the Dead Men-adventures in Dungeon) I wished that they would bring him back. It should have been Myrkul bursting out of Kelemvor, returning in Triumph, instead of Bane being born out of Xvim
Now that Bane has returned, I am a bit disappointed with how they have portrayed him - I just hate that "Green-and-Mean Bloated Demon Lord"-look. I always thought that Bane appears to everyone as his/her worst nightmare - the this they fear most. If he had a "True Form", I think Ed described him more as a "helmeted-with-burning-eyes"-type of god, never seen yet sometimes glimpsed in nightmares. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 17:30:00
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I guess I'm the only one who didn't like Myrkul...
I thought he was kinda boring, as the stereotypical "Ooh, death is scary!" deity. Not that Kelemvor with his "Death is a part of life." attitude is terribly original, but he's a lot more interesting to me. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 02:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm the only one who didn't like Myrkul...
I've always liked the whole "Death God" concept, but I never really had an particular interest in the way it was packaged in the Realms -- that is, in the form of Myrkul.
quote:
I thought he was kinda boring, as the stereotypical "Ooh, death is scary!" deity. Not that Kelemvor with his "Death is a part of life." attitude is terribly original, but he's a lot more interesting to me.
Since Myrkul still remains an active power in my campaigns, he still remains as secretive and mysterious as the portfolio he once championed.
I've almost always had Myrkul and his clergy represent the "unknown" aspect of death itself rather than the, as you say, "Ooh, death is scary" effect. Myrkul as he was in the Realms, almost trivialised the notion of death, and when my PCs would come across Myrkul-worshippers they would normally treat them like that of any other evil deity-worshipping group -- I just didn't like that and neither did the players eventually because, again as you have said, it was boring.
In many ways, Myrkul and the concept of Death represent something more powerful and significantly greater than many of the deities and their portfolios -- Mystra excluded. So, what I wanted was to have these PCs actually think about how they were going to challenge the next group of Myrkul-worshippers that came along. Having these worshippers support something that is still not largely understood, exemplified the nature of the unknown element of the life beyond, and it became harder for these players to determine what actions, if any, the Myrkul worshippers intended to take.
Since that time, none of my players have ever complained about feelings of boredom when confronting the priests of Myrkul. I believe that's because there is always something new everytime they face them.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 08:11:36
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quote:
He currently happens to be an ascended human. But the god does not have to be racially human to hold the office. Jergal for instance held the office for many millenia, and he was not human.
What was he, anyway? He looks like an ultraloth.
On the subject of 3e rules screwing up Faerunian cosmology, I'm still upset about Aber-Toril being ripped out of Planescape. I'm hoping that version 3.9999e will change things back. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 15:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
What was he, anyway? He looks like an ultraloth.
It is not actually know what Jergal is exactly. There are plenty of intriguing possibilities -- ranging from him being a thri-kreen to a part of Eric's idea of a cyclical, tripartite sun-god in which Jergal may not have been the first incarnation of the Lord of the Dusk.
To lend further confusion to the mystery... from Powers and Pantheons -
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"Jergal appears as a wizened, insubstantial mummy of some ancient, alien race. His skin is gray and tightly drawn across his frame. His bulbous, yellow, lifeless eyes and insectoid mandibles resemble a cross between a humanoid and a preying mantis. His ears and nose are barely distinguishable from his elongated skull. Most of his body is covered with an utterly lightless cloak that seems to absorb the very atmosphere that envelops it. His white gloves cover elongated, claw-like hands and forearms."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 May 2005 15:39:19 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 15:45:29
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I don't know why, but I actually liked the idea that each world has its own cosmology, and they are all still conected by the Plane of Shadow. Maybe I remember too far back to the people at conventions that essentially used the fact that every world was in a crystal sphere and that every world was connected to the Great Wheel to argue that there was no reason to use Greyhawk or FR or any other setting and thus prove that their own homebrew game was infinately superior than all the "generic" settings that TSR had connected in this way.
The Plane of Shadow still connects all the Primes (if they have a Plane of Shadow), and gates in Sigil and the Forgotten Realms still shuttle people back and forth if you can find them.
For the record, I still loved Spelljammer, although I use a slightly modified version of how it works in the universe, so as to not limit the size of the Prime Material to the inside of a Crystal Sphere. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 18:37:16
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In my group we voted that Kelemvor would only be able to judge the faithless and false of the faerunian pantheon, since the idea of him judging phaerimm, dragons, elves(don`t all elves go to arvandor upon death, not just the real believers?)dwarves, bugbears, illithid etc seemed wrong to us(human god judges all souls, even non-human, enter WOTC: the human equivalent of the eldreth veluuthra in terms of equality between species)
Pesonally I would prefer to become a lemure and ascend the baatezu hierarchy than be thrown into that stupid wall for all eternity. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 18:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
In my group we voted that Kelemvor would only be able to judge the faithless and false of the faerunian pantheon, since the idea of him judging phaerimm, dragons, elves(don`t all elves go to arvandor upon death, not just the real believers?)dwarves, bugbears, illithid etc seemed wrong to us(human god judges all souls, even non-human, enter WOTC: the human equivalent of the eldreth veluuthra in terms of equality between species)
Glad someone agrees with me. :) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 22:47:02
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I really don't want to keep up any arguements here, but I guess I really don't understand how its offensive or even "racist" (the WOTC as Eldreth Veluthra comment) for there to be a god of death over all position, just like there is a goddess of magic overall position, and that it is his job to dispose of souls that BY THEIR OWN CHOICE are not tied to any deity.
Kelemvor is no more "human" now than Grummsh is an orc. He is a god, and if anything his species is "outsider." As several have pointed out, Jergal held the position long ago, and he doesn't seem to have been human, yet judged human souls, etc.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 02:41:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I really don't want to keep up any arguements here, but I guess I really don't understand how its offensive or even "racist" (the WOTC as Eldreth Veluthra comment) for there to be a god of death over all position, just like there is a goddess of magic overall position, and that it is his job to dispose of souls that BY THEIR OWN CHOICE are not tied to any deity.
Kelemvor is no more "human" now than Grummsh is an orc. He is a god, and if anything his species is "outsider." As several have pointed out, Jergal held the position long ago, and he doesn't seem to have been human, yet judged human souls, etc.
Fine. Then why can't the other deities of the dead/death do the same to the humans or other races that turn thier back on the Faerun pantheon? This is the reason this bothers many of us because those other deities are shoved into the corner and told to stay there. Sehanine and the other deities of the dead/death are no more human then Kelemvor is. In a world that is polytheistic, he is the god of the dead/death that has monotheistic power. And please don't tell me that FR isn't polytheistic. :)
Again don't reference Mystra because she doesn't control magic on the planes except for on her plane or if you are using 2e, then in her realm. The souls of the afterlife that do not worship a deity or pay lip service to deities should not be controlled by one deity.
Let me try another example: People who give lip service to Christ. They die and they get judged by Hades since he was given the power to be the judge over all souls that give lip service to the deities. Then we got people who pay lip service to Hades. They die and who do they get judged by? Hades of course. This is exactly the same way it is currently in FR. Do you see how messed up this is? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 May 2005 05:33:01 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 03:45:52
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If you see the Faerūnian pantheon as a human racial pantheon, then they should have no more special position than the other racial pantheons.
If you see the Faerūnian pantheon as the original pantheon of the universe, predating humanity, with special rules and privileges granted to them at the begining of time by Ao, then the other racial pantheons are honored guests that have interloped from other universes. Ao has allowed them to set up shop in his house but they have to follow his rules.
One of the rules is that a member of any race can worship any deity. There are strong traditions and cultural reasons why races worship their racial pantheons, but that does not preclude anyone from taking an unconventional deity as their patron.
Another rule is that the pantheons can set up whatever afterlives they want, and they have complete dominion over their planes and divine realms and over the petitioners they lay claim to.
Another rule is that all souls go to the fugue plane to get picked up by their patron deities. If they don't have a patron deity or have betrayed their faith, then they get judged by the default god of Death appointed by Ao.
Ao's house. Ao's rules.
Now if you see the Faerūnian pantheon as merely the human racial pantheon, then I can see why you would have a problem with Kel having special dominion over non-believers.
But I believe that the Faerūnian pantheon is more than just a human racial pantheon because we know 1) the creation myth about how Ao created the universe and how Shar and Selune and then Chauntea were the first gods. 2) All the racial pantheons have interloped from other universes, they weren't around at the begining, and 3) Jergal was the god of death for a very, very long time and he wasn't human.
That said, while I believe the Faerūnian pantheon is more than just a human racial pantheon, I certainly think different takes on this could be equally valid, and I do not begrudge anyone taking a different approach in their own game. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 03:55:13
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It's not though because in F&P page 5 says at least four HUMAN pantheons came together to form the Faerun pantheon, and thus it is a human pantheon more then anything.
"Humans, one of the progenitor races, have founded numerous unrelated cultures across Faerun. As those cultures have intermingled, the various human pantheons have been wracked by conflict. In Western Faerun, scholars have identified no fewer then four human proto-pantheons: The Netherese pantheon, the Talferic pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and the Coramshite pantheon. Over the past few millennia, these four proto-pantheons, plus others unidentified, have merged into a single pantheon known as the Faerun Pantheon."
Sure looks like Faerun's pantheon is a human racial pantheon or at least human in origin and there are enough deities in it from the human pantheons to say it is a human racial pantheon.
Furthermore Jergal was NOT originally the deity of the dead/death for all humans since the Netherese pantheon hadn't merged with the other three pantheons until after Netheril fell. Until that happened he wouldn't have been the deity that judged ALL the faithless and false and if he was that's still idiotic because there were 3 other human pantheons that probably had thier own deities of the dead/death. If there is any deity that might have gotten that much power it's Myrkul and then Kelemvor. And the Netherese cration myth is just that, it's a myth. Is it true? Who knows.
Sorry but the truth is that TSR/WOTC just doesn't understand how a polytheistic world is supposed to work and they made it so that Faerun deity of the dead/death is the monotheistic ruler of the souls of the dead if they are false and faithless.
Do you see Mystra ruling the planes? No so why should Faerun deity of the dead/death judge those souls? It makes no sense. And if AO set it up this way then he is a extremely biased overpower.
For the record, I'd disagree if any of the other deities of the dead/death had that much power of souls over the other races as well. Souls should only by judged by those deities that the souls turned thier back on or paid lip service to, not some other deity that had nothing to do with those souls in life.
But I'm done with this after this reply. |
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Edited by - Kuje on 28 May 2005 06:50:32 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 09:45:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
It's not though because in F&P page 5 says at least four HUMAN pantheons came together to form the Faerun pantheon, and thus it is a human pantheon more then anything.
Granted, it says that. My take on this is that the original pantheon came to be worshipped by humans over time. As human populations drifted and became isolated from each other these deities created fragments of themselves to serve the various groupings of their worshippers. Thus Chauntea fragmented into Jannath and Earthmoter. The god of war fragmented into Tempus, Gargagos and Targus. The god of elemental destruction became Talos and Kozah, etc.
It's possible that Jergal fragmented himself as well, although it is also possible that he and Mystryl remained constant across all pantheons. We haven't been told.
These fragments reunited (or in some cases killed each other) when the pantheons merged back into the unified Faerūnian pantheon. But I believe that each of these fragments can be linked back to the original gods spawned from the creation of the universe.
It is very true that humans have adopted the original pantheon as their own (with some human additions to be sure) but this does not make the original pantheon a human pantheon.
And one thing the humans have over all the other racial pantheons is that those other pantheons are interlopers. Humans are native, while elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, goblins, etc. are immigrants from other universes.
Perhaps that is why humans worship the original pantheon of Faerūn and have not (for the most part) adopted human racial gods. I am not saying that this makes humans superior, however the fact of their nativeness makes them a unique when compared to all the immigrant races that have come to dwell in Faerūn. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 10:12:42
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I tend to agree with Gray's POV in the discussion, and don't see why the other deities cannot play a role in the game. The whole discussion so far seems to portay Kelemvor (and his tasks) and the other death deities as not compatible...
I could see the Fugue as a large area where all the dead go, and Kelemvor happens to be its caretaker, as well as the one that maintains the wall and the city.
All the other dieties of death actually have a say in judging who goes where. It is them that decide for the followers of their respective pantheons, where they go:
"Clangeddin you say, let me check my liist... Hmmm, I always thought you'd be more of Dumathoin's man... allright, of you go, that way. And you, you forsake the Mordinsamman... sorry, line up over there, towards that wall yonder, next please."
Kelemvor, in addition to being the Fugue's main-man, also happens to be the death deity for the Faerunian pantheon, so in addition to his tasks of overseeing the wall and such, he gets his say on those souls.
He takes care of those that the other death deities have judged as not compatible with their afterlives and it is Kelemvor who eventually makes the final judgement on wether it is the wall, the city, or in exceptional circumstances sends the soul with a missive to another death deity than the souls orginial one... |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 02 Jun 2005 05:52:55 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 10:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My take on this is that the original pantheon came to be worshipped by humans over time. As human populations drifted and became isolated from each other these deities created fragments of themselves to serve the various groupings of their worshippers. Thus Chauntea fragmented into Jannath and Earthmoter. The god of war fragmented into Tempus, Gargagos and Targus. The god of elemental destruction became Talos and Kozah, etc.
Aye! I was just discussing something similar to this in another thread, in regard to Teylas.
Among the Tuigan, Akadi is worshipped as Teylas, the lord of storms. Obviously here, we see another example of this cultural religious shift which results in an alternate interpretation for a pre-existing power. Although Akadi didn't actually fragment into Teylas, the Tuigan interpretation of Akadi as Teylas has resulted in a completely new basis for the elemental power who is, at least to the Tuigan, regarded as a god.
This in itself supports that view that as the human populations diversified across Faerun, the basic pantheon was re-evaluated according to the local environments the various human groups find themselves in and the cultural groups that come together as a result of the scattering.
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webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 11:56:44
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Hi folks!
A total view to this very interesting post would be nice, and by that, I mean, pantheons of Faerūn, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and other continents of Abeir-Toril should be part of this discussion.
Thus, that would happen to a faithless from Faerūn, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and so on upon death? Would all the faithless stand in front of Kelemvor? Now, if that is the case, the fellows from Zakhara and Kara-Tur would be wondering who Kelemvor is. Maybe, Kelemvor has some agreements with death gods of other pantheons, or, maybe, Ao has decided that faithless of Faerūn goes to Kelemvor, while the other goes to their respective death god. In such a way, dead gods stand at the same level in Abeir-Toril. And, is it possible to be faithless in Kara-Tur ... maybe, they have a complete different view of gods, the afterlife, and so on.
Well ... just some thoughts ... |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 20:38:52
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What is interesting about Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica is that these are immigrant populations of humans that have interloped from other worlds.
So what you have in these cases are examples of human racial deities that are also interlopers. Because they are geographically isolated from the cultural mish-mash that is Faerūn, Ao has granted them special accomodation by giving them pocket cosmologies tied to their geographic regions.
Maztica and Zakhara have their own pocket astral planes which connects to special divine planes for their own pantheons. While Kara-Tur has a qualitatively different transitive plane: it is a Spirit World which either substitutes for an Astral or is an Astral plane with very different characteristics from your run-of-the-mill astral.
I think these pocket cosmologies are fascinating, and I find myself preoccupied about how they might work. For instance, do the faithful of those lands go to the Fugue when they die? It may be that in those three geographic areas a soul may bypass the fugue plane altogether upon death. If so it would be interesting to know if the faithless and false of those continents go to the fugue plane. I have some theories... but we just don't know for sure yet, officially. |
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Dragon Souls and the Fugue Plane
