| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Feanor_Karnil
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2003 : 16:38:08
|
|
You know the situations where the party has absolutely no chance in winning, you know they're going to die. But you make the decisions, you decide their fate. I'm starting a D&D game with some friends of mine and I want to hear what some have done in situations like these. Do they let the party die or kill'em off?
|
We live in a bleak world my friend, where heroes are few and shadows stalk us around every corner.
-Mikai Daerni |
|
|
Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2003 : 16:46:41
|
That depends on the situation.
If they asked for it and cannot handle the consequenses, I let them die or whatever else might happen.
If the situation is something that I more or less forced them into and then realize that they cannot overcome, I usually spare their lives.
I hate when my players die. I prefer when their survival is just an inch from failure. That way they feel that they have acomplished something.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
 |
|
|
zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2003 : 20:32:52
|
For me, if they made a mistake knowing what they were doing (attacking an army of balor for example... or something more stupid) i just let them die.
And sometimes (it's rare) even if they did the best they could and they die, well it's life (in that case it's more death  )
|
Edited by - zemd on 15 Jan 2003 19:58:41 |
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2003 : 21:44:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor_Karnil
You know the situations where the party has absolutely no chance in winning, you know they're going to die. But you make the decisions, you decide their fate. I'm starting a D&D game with some friends of mine and I want to hear what some have done in situations like these. Do they let the party die or kill'em off?
Before I start with a new party (something I haven't done for a while) I brief them fully on the way I DM. I have 2 golden rules for these occasions:
1 I would never put a party in a situation where they are going to die - I normally find it's enough to give them the opportunity to put themselves in that situation. If your party is in a situation where they have "absolutely no chance in winning" and you've put them there, I would say they have a cause for complaint. If they have ended up in that situation because of bad luck you should take this into account when deciding the outcome. If they are in the situation through stupidity, (on their part, not yours - DMs can't be stupid  ), they deserve everything they get.
2 Whatever they are doing, if they give me the option to allow a saving throw I will give it to them. As an example, if the party decide to cross a dangerous looking bridge and don't rope themselves together, (or take other precautions), and one of them falls - tough. If they take the precautions then saving throws are possible (eg strength to see if someone can hold their weight on the rope). You need to ensure that the descriptions you give are enough (but not too much) to ensure they are aware of a dangerous situation.
One other thing to bear in mind. If the players have played the same characters for a long time and one of them dies, allow the party time to react to it. A lot of DMs adopt the attitude "Oh dear, never mind. Grab the dice and roll a new character". My party recently lost an Elf fighter who had been a member of the party for almost 6 years. The session in which he was killed was one of the most enjoyable (from a role-playing point of view) for a long time. One of the players always had problems role-playing, (caused, perhaps, by embarassment and a lack of confidence), but this session marked a turning point for her - she's one of the better role-players in the group now. It sounds obvious, but if you expect your party to role-play, you must allow them time to do so.
|
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2003 : 19:39:42
|
Well said Ron, and I would subscribe to those two rules. I might put my players in a situation which looks desperately hopeless. Just to make them sweat once in a while and have them to start caring for their character's well being. It also can help to forge bonds in the group(s).
Like mentioned, the players themselves are often to 'blame' when it comes to seeking out impossible situations. As a current example, in the Silver Marches PbeM campaign, there is one group of 1st level characters who were boasting a little in a local tavern and got drafted to go Troll hunting in the Evermoors... As a DM I can't pass up on such an opportunity, it almost as granting a wish. |
|
|
|
sabre
Acolyte
Turkey
47 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2003 : 07:47:00
|
I usually Don't get my parties in dire and deadly situations but
i always let them slip from great dangers on the point of a blade...
Players usually don't throw themselves in death easily..But if they do throw for a honorful and epic cause it depends.
sometimes a god (or their gods)take them with him/her or just resurrect them or an old friend come on the nick of time or maybe a hero or heroine of realms arrive.Ýt depends on how players role played..
give them oppornuties to win some friends of great power,let them know that some particular deity watches them or just give them powerful items that can change their fate...
I just wanted to give an example;I have been playing a game for 13 weeks.The players won friendship of a powerful firbolg and and his great party.After 3 or 4 months they put themselves in a dire situation,they were in the middle of a barbaric clan of gnolls,they were 10-1,two of the players got down and other two were saying farewells.when they got their last stance and Gnolls attacked ,a shimmering door opened , Firbolg and his friends assaulted Gnolls with a killing frenzy and players turned from the point of death...
|
sabre |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2003 : 14:10:02
|
That's a nice solution Sabre, and a principle which I have used a few times myself as well. But this option does have an inherent risk to it: If a DM uses this option to often, the players will start to rely on the 'outside' help and become reckless or bored.
Use this option in tiny doses throughout a campaign, and it can make for some memorable scenarios though. |
|
|
|
Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2003 : 15:46:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Use this option in tiny doses throughout a campaign, and it can make for some memorable scenarios though.
Agreed. Currently the party in my campaign consisting of 3rd and 4th level characters have aquiered the help of a 7th level minotaur fighter dual-wielding flails who is a dozen times tougher than them. He is of course going to leave them when they have finished their current task.
Later on I am planning on letting a Silver Dragon or more likely a Steel Dragon join them - without them knowing, of course.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
|
|
|
zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2003 : 18:38:09
|
I consider that in real life, you cannot handle everything (if you are attacked in the street, the bandits won't be of the right "CR", they may outnumber you, ...) So sometimes my players must think of an other solution, argue and so...
Of course i don't kill them immediatly trying to describe everything so they can find a solution but it can be very difficult and risky.
In the other hand sometimes even if they are 10th level, they can encounter goblins and such creatures... |
|
|
|
AutoSponge
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 05:24:38
|
There are some fine lines here, and some not-so-fine:
Sometimes rogues *aren't* the proper CR, I agree. But if you have a 10th level rogue steal a level 2 character's prized posession, he's liable to think it's the DM stealing it. Meaning, he only had one option which is to give it up. The alternative is certain death. You must give your players options at all times. Anything else is what I call game-jacking.
Game-jacking is what happens when a DM hijacks the players by way of his omnipotence. The players, no matter what they attempt, imagine, or otherwise do, are at the whim of the DM. They must go along with what's happening of the game is over.
There are some instances where the PC's might be acting like retards. That's a good time to hijack them, kick them in the pants. But then let them move on, lesson learned. Return control of the game to the players--and ultimately, the PCs.
Remember, the game is not about the DM, his world, his NPCs, his awesome items, or fierce monsters. It's about the PCs. So, any device used to bail PCs out of trouble should at most be used once and only once. Repeating such a device is going to dominate the game. Furthermore, placing PCs in situations where they are repeatedly faced with only one option is going to get old for the players (although you may think yourself quite clever).
With the exception of the very first session, I never force characters into a situation. Sure, they may all be in the town's militia but if their sergeant gave them an order and they refused and quit the milita, that's their choice. I don't hijack them by threatening them with courtmartial (unless they knew that ahead of time) or have spells cast on them by a high level NPC. "Fine, you just don't get paid. Now give back all that nice equipment and beat it, scoundrels!"
If PCs are asking for trouble, they may get some. But it's not right to have the voice of the DM be so clear and readily identifiable as to take boasting PCs and conscript them--removing their free will to bow to your mighty powers as a DM, or the mighty powers-that-be in your awesome world. If someone wants to boast, let them. They may be asked to take care of some villan that they have no business fighting (at which point they have their choice to take the job or not). They may be ignored, even loathed by people--or worse, shunned by the NPCs in town that could actually help them. That's the subtle art of running a game. It's not hijacking.
There is a not so fine line between hijacking and cause-and-effect. If the PCs do something stupid, the intelligent result should occur. For instance, the level 1 rogue tries to rob a merchant in broad daylight as his first action of the campaign. He fails. The merchant alerts the guards (level 2-4) and a chase is on. The PC now must pay for those actions. *IF* (I'm big on if) the PC can use his cunning and his skills to evade the guards (hide in shadows, disguise, etc. vs. their spot checks) he may not pay a big price. But he certainly learned a lesson from that experience. On the other hand, if the PC gets caught, he'll face the normal punishment in the town for stealing. It may be a fine and some prison time. It may be being sold into servitude for life. Or, the PC may swing from the leafless tree for his crimes. If they didn't bother to find out what the penalties were ahead of time, tough luck.
How to get away with the 10th level rogue bilking the PCs:
First, the PCs must be told by an NPC that a certain part of the town is dangerous at night. Or someone they know is robbed. Or they hear a report from the city's watch commander about a violent crimminal on the loose. Then, if the PCs go to that part of town or go looking for that crimminal you can steal their stuff and not feel bad about it. They were the idiots that went looking for trouble, or they were so dumb as to forget certain important details that had been given to them for a reason.
This doesn't mean that you forewarn every event in a campaign. This just means that if you are going to introduce a winless situation that the PCs be given opportunities to avoid that situation.
Believe me, if you run things just slightly differently, the PCs will think it's all their fault when something bad happens rather than blaming the DM for tossing them into the fire. They'll become better players for it, and you'll be a better DM.
I'm tired, can't talk about this anymore tonight. If anyone cares to reply, I'll be glad to assist with other scenarios or dispense advice. But I know from which I speak as a player and DM, and I'm not wrong here. So I won't entertain debate on the topic, but comments are welcome.
Good Night, Good Gaming.
AutoSponge |
|
|
|
Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 14:13:00
|
As a new DM I tend to go easy on my players since they are my friends as well.
But this is only in the begining where they are low-levels and by some divine help that protects the adventurers (my invention-could be Tymora) they cannot get into serious trouble. But if they get too confident (try to face 100 orcs or offend a High Priestess of Helm) because they know I will find a way to save them...well sorry, that's too much depending on the inventiveness of the DM and does not help them improvise and wprk out solutions. So, at the point where fun stops, it's time for them to die (or even better, an eternal condemnation. Thus, they will know that their PCs are alive but they'd rather die...) |
|
|
|
sabre
Acolyte
Turkey
47 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 20:27:46
|
Players, whether bad luck, stupidity or wrong timing;always put themselves in dangerous situations.Whenever this happens try to give them more room.Like a escape route,a powerful friendly NPC or something that will save their lives.Ýf they still pursue the death,well they simply deserve it,end their agony let them die...
Ýn my last game for example:Rogue/fighter of the party decided to enter a dungeon called "diamondpalace"...With a succesful gather info check he learned that the dungeon is a very fun place for rogues(min rogue level 7th/he was rogue 6th)but decided to enter against all odds.Ýn the dungeon when he was struggling with the traps,he rolled a 1 and 1 again for the reflex save...By all rules he was dead.But he is a devoted Mask worshipper and his god couldn't let this gifted youngster slip away so easily and gave him a last chance:a roll of 17-18-19 would make him hold onto something.He rolled...a 19!You gotto see the expression in his face!He emerged out of that dungeon with fame,platin and better devoted to his god.
I didn't do anything just let it decided by the dice as you should i guess... |
sabre |
|
|
|
Sorenna_Melruth
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 23:32:05
|
I agree it depends on the situation, yet sometimes good players have to get themselves in such situations and in these cases its best to not just kill them off, A party of good aligned people who see a child kidnapped in front of there eyes, is going to usually attempt to retrieve the child, no matter what snatched it.
If they look for there trouble then don't give them a break let the dice decide there fate.
We once had a character (unwisely) attack Gromph in a Underdark Game, the party was clearly no match for the Wizard. He presisted even after his party told him not to, it got the rest of his party nearly killed and himself killed and stuck in a soul jar spell.
The group only escaped by the skin of there teeth, or tusks in the half orc's case.
It was a great learning experience rather then just killing them off with odds.
Don't throw things always in your players favor , but don't put them through the grinder either. If its a situation they have no way out, give them subtle help or a patron.
|
History is written by those who survive such terriable times,and every person is a hero, and every person is a villan it depends on who's telling the tale. |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 01:55:50
|
I would not recommend allowing the party to die off so easily, if they are to die, i prefer that they die honorably and well, of course after dragging a dozen foes with them to the netherworld.
My suggestion would be that a few mebers survive the experience and yet scarred by the experience, that it drives them on to either more vengeance or madness. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
SoulLord
Seeker
Mexico
62 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2005 : 00:01:31
|
For me it depends if they are high level enough to get a raise dead spell.
if they are too lowl level or poor y usually cut them more slack than if they are big boys and can afford a raise dad or similar spell. |
|
|
|
Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 09:21:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
I consider that in real life, you cannot handle everything (if you are attacked in the street, the bandits won't be of the right "CR", they may outnumber you, ...) So sometimes my players must think of an other solution, argue and so...
Of course i don't kill them immediatly trying to describe everything so they can find a solution but it can be very difficult and risky.
In the other hand sometimes even if they are 10th level, they can encounter goblins and such creatures...
Yes, totally agree with you on this one. Sometimes my 4th level party encounters a CR 10 monster. Off course I give them the opportunity to get out of it, but they have to work hard for it. I get fed up by encountering CR 6 to 9 when you're level 7 and CR 12 to 15 when you're level 13 and so on. Sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
On the other hand, I (as a DM) do everything to avoid a TPK. Individual characters die (althought very rarely), but I've never had a TPK. Well, ok, once, but that was against the 'end boss', so the quest was pretty much over anyway. The bad guy won, continued with his evil plans, but was eventually stopped by another adventuring party |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Tough DM Situations
