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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:43:35
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What moral issues do you think the FR churches have?
I can think of the following from the real world
Interacial marriages (and lets face it anything can breed with anything in 3ed!)
Sexs before marriage
Homosexuality
Anyone think of any others? or any realms specfic moral dihemas for FR churches
A couple i can think of is Lycanthropy and Selunes church
The Superiority/Inferiority of a Race/Sex
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 18 May 2005 05:48:04
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:04:18
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Homosexuality...? Do they even have that in Forgotten Realms? Lol.
Hmm... I don't think all churches would frown on sex before marriage. In fact, after reading so many mushy scenes in FR novels, I don't even think this is an issue at all. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Homosexuality...? Do they even have that in Forgotten Realms? Lol.
Hmm... I don't think all churches would frown on sex before marriage. In fact, after reading so many mushy scenes in FR novels, I don't even think this is an issue at all.
I imagine some of the more prudish LG gods might |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't think all churches would frown on sex before marriage.
Sune's clergy would likely be a prime example of that. The hedonistic ways of the Sunite faithful make pleasure and passion the core of all of their pursuits. However, Sune also preaches that one should be truthful to love and follow your true heart's desire.
The issue of sex before marriage, while likely "allowed" by the Sunite clergy, may create difficulties if such an individual involved with the church began taking successive partners, one after the other, and abandoning the aspect of "true" love.
So in this respect, I would say that complete dedication to one's lover would be one of the main examples of when such activities are allowed by the Sunite church.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:24:50
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I would venture that the Church of Ilmater, being so centred around suffering and poverty, would have some hang ups about sex. On the one hand it's hedonistic, and thus might be somewhat taboo for the priesthood itself, while on the other it brings about unwanted pregnancies amongst downtrodden cityfolk with no natural birth control.
Of course, I can't see these taboos being apllied universally upon all folk ... mostly the priesthood and what followers it is necessary for, like ghettofolk or maybe warriors. |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:34:20
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However, in many cases in FR stories, a male and female protagonist often get into a relationship and then sexual intercouse, even though they are not married and fall in love only after a short period of time.
Of the top of my head, here's a few:
Drizzt and Catti-Brie
Kara and Dorn (Year of Rogue Dragon Trilogy)
Vambran and the female druid (forgot name) (Scions of Arrabar Trilogy)
Dozens and dozens of characters in Ed Greenwood's books. Lol.
Amlaruil and Zoar (had like 3 kids before she official became Queen) |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:39:56
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Im looking for more for issues in which a church would take a stand over (one way or another) rather than a church by church arguement.
Both Lolth and Bane (At least Pre time of Troubles) discrimianted over sex Lolth against Males and Bane against females. I imagine given the number of Churches in the ralms there would be at least 1 church that discriminates/disapproves of the issues previously mentioned |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:44:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I imagine given the number of Churches in the ralms there would be at least 1 church that discriminates/disapproves of the issues previously mentioned
And in that respect, I would believe that there would be a few among the number of the most senior High Priests or Priestess in such clergies who have, at one time or another, taken "secret" lovers when their churches expressly forbid such activities.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 May 2005 06:46:12 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 09:10:39
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moral dilemmas of kelemvors followers:
1) good undead.
2) bloodstones spectral steed: why should doomguides (=2e speciality priests) - who battle undead - be able to summon a very undead-looking mount???
3) using minor undead as means justified by the ends: that one is a homebrew: in a solo-campaign, the gamer playing a doomguide will soon meet a collegue: a former myrkulite and from snowmantle (ex- zhentarim and grim enemy of the black robes) who operates a small emerald mine in the desertsmouth mountains - with the help of a dozen animated skeletons!
his argument: "they are mindless, and the end (=financing the battle against the black network with the gems from that mine) justifies the means. besides: obviously, kelemvor granted me that, and as long as we (the clerics) don´t tell everyone about it, and continue to fight the really bad undead [the player hunts a netherese vampire across the anauroch], it´s ok."
remember that kelemvor´s church ist still quite young and the process of organising has not yet ended. at least that´s my interpretation, and it allows for great intra-religious conflicts (= room for roleplaying!)...
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 10:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
However, in many cases in FR stories, a male and female protagonist often get into a relationship and then sexual intercouse, even though they are not married and fall in love only after a short period of time.
Drizzt and Catti-Brie
They did not fall in love "over a short period of time". It took about ten years. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 10:14:52
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I think what he meant was that their love lasted a short time. Sure it took time to grow, but they only really accepted after a long time and then just as quickly dismissed it.
Guess it must get lonely when you're out adventuring, and lets face it, given the choice of bedding Catti-Brie or Bruenor...... |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 11:33:13
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I think the real moral issue in the good churches of FR dedicated to the Gods of good and the light may be two issues:
1) Followers commiting acts of crimes, indecency or killing in the name of their god or for and to further the cause of their deity. When others pursue these followers for their crimes, the church and the follwers responsible will start to proclaim innocence and devoutness to their patron deities, and fight to defend these responsible followers or themselves, I think this would be one of the many reasons why there are religious wars on Faerun.
2) A follower of the Gods of Light befriending a follower of the dark gods or a race deemed evil and insidious. Or maybe talking with a follower of the dark gods or a race deemed evil and insidious.
3) Conversion of faith from the current church to a dark church instead, such as Church of Shar or Cyric. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 18 May 2005 11:34:29 |
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Adarin
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2005 : 12:02:55
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Hello everyone! I think the greatest heresy faced by the churches of Faerun would be:
1) Marriage between a follower or priest/priestess of a church of the gods of the light and another follower or priest/priestess of a church of the gods of the dark. 
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There will always be parting of ways which is never of your preference. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 06:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
I think what he meant was that their love lasted a short time. Sure it took time to grow, but they only really accepted after a long time and then just as quickly dismissed it.
Guess it must get lonely when you're out adventuring, and lets face it, given the choice of bedding Catti-Brie or Bruenor......
Unless I missed the latest book, I don't think they've "dismissed it". I definitly saw the potential for that to happen, though... |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
![]()
Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 11:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
Unless I missed the latest book, I don't think they've "dismissed it".
Yup, definitely not dismissed. Being at the same bed together and talking the end of the Two Swords (Or is it Two Blades? Forgotten so fast...) made a some cheer and others groan. |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 23:40:29
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On an interesting note: why are all the heretic examples focused on sex and marriage? 
Surely there are many more examples of heresy in the churches throughout the realms! Friendly association with a member of the opposite sect could be an act of heresy, unless it was only pretended to further the deity's aims. Blatantly going against the dogma of a deity is definitely heresy, and so is over friendliness with the church of gods of opposite sects. In some churches, over consumption of alcohol might be against a church's rules, or being too easily angered/violent when worshipping a peaceful deity...the list goes on. |
"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
I would venture that the Church of Ilmater, being so centred around suffering...<snip>
This here is why Ilmater supports marrage. |
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 19:11:48
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Searching in the tunnels of scrolls located in Candlekeep, I came upon this scroll.
Here is this:
I was wondering about the influence of our (Christian) or otherwise Western values and customs had on our beautiful Fearun.
Above, there are some examples of sex and marriage in the Realms, but I was thinking in a bigger picture.
We have a large and long history on Earth, where we reiced our values mainly due to religion years past;
We have a certain view of how to act in presence of others
How we view love/relationships and sex in our world
What we can't and can do "to" one another.
I always assumed that our values were "common" in the fantasy world of Faerun, but I have read the WOTSQ, for example where females have a (sexual) relationship. I have read several times that drow can be cannabalistic, etc.
I found it very surprising and was thrilled knowing that Fearun was different in this than our own
Are there more examples of values and customs that do not correspond with our "own"?
Not including the discriminative faiths of Lloth and Bane for example or other examples mentioned above?
Is this something authors and designers do on purpose?
Is there a mention of male homosexuality in the Realms?
Just a thought
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Edited by - Dungeon Moron on 31 Oct 2005 19:12:31 |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 19:32:53
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I imagine a lot of taboo and heresy would revolve around magic and it's application to the followers of their or another religeon. It's hard to define heresy for universal truths when such "Truths" are relative to the diety in question. I couldn't see anything being taboo to the followers of Sune so long as it felt good. The reverse applies to followers of Ilamter. Kelemvor would be relatively ambivilant about either.
Honestly, the dieties don't have any corrollation between right and wrong. They are about their portfolios and what advances their interests.
FR Dieties= Large Amoral children poking an antbed to watch the inhabitants scatter, each trying to get as many ant in their corner as possible without pissing off the teacher. (Ao) |
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hooper101
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 20:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
However, in many cases in FR stories, a male and female protagonist often get into a relationship and then sexual intercouse, even though they are not married and fall in love only after a short period of time.
Of the top of my head, here's a few:
Drizzt and Catti-Brie
Kara and Dorn (Year of Rogue Dragon Trilogy)
Vambran and the female druid (forgot name) (Scions of Arrabar Trilogy)
Dozens and dozens of characters in Ed Greenwood's books. Lol.
Amlaruil and Zoar (had like 3 kids before she official became Queen)
When did Drizzt and Cattie Brie hook up? |
Die, die, die ,die, die, why won't you just die you silly dragon! |
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 20:12:51
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Comparing our own world again with the Realms, we sure have it very easily spelled out before us.
We (mostly) have a one God or religion one which our values are based.
In the multiverse of Pantheons upon the Realms, with all having their different customs and codes, shouldn't it be a complete chaos between followers of the various deities?
Somehow everybody just seems to get along with eachother where I would suspect more strife amongst eachother. Several cities have so many temples that almost all different alginments pass the revue.
How does everybody get along without breaking each others code or custom, if everybody is living together? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 21:01:30
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Because everyone more or less follows the same deities... As has been pointed out more than once, the average person will toss off a prayer or offer some other form of worship several times a day, whenever appropriate to the activity they're doing.
People in the Realms know there are multiple deities, and they tend to listen to all of them -- or at least, those whose portfolios affect them and/or whose alignments don't greatly differ from theirs. So, in essence, even though individuals may identify more strongly with one deity or another, everyone is pretty much on the same page. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 22:31:02
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Okay, that makes sense for most persons. Otherwise it would be a jungle of chaos between various faiths.
But still my other questions remain.
What other differences are there between certain civilizations of Fearun and our own (western) world? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 23:19:25
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| In the real world most of the major faiths are monothesic (ie one god) so if believers of X would treat believers of Y as Heretics/Infidels/Devil worshipers etc. So ironicly the Realms has probably been more tolerant when it comes to relgion than the real world. While a Christian can say Allah doesn exist and Muslims have got oit wrong (and muslims can say the same about Christians), citizens of the Realms cant after all the gods walked among them for practically an entire year. Even the most rabid follower of Tyr has to acknowledge that Bane and Cyric exist and their worshipers are just as true to their gods as the Tyrist is to his. Theres not alot of doubt that the gods exist after all every time a cleric casts a spell it proves his god exists |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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DestroyYouAlot
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 17:36:14
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Well, let's see...
For starters, as far as Sune goes, there are numerous instances in the fiction where her clergy pursue love in the "short term", so pre-marital sex, at least in some (and, presumably, most) sects of that goddess's faith, is ok - and more than likely encouraged. As far as extra-marital sex, that would probably depend on the conditions of the marriage. ;)
I'm fairly certain Ed has implied that the Realms as he envisions it is quite a bit "spicier" than the published version - and a good thing, too, or all the civilized races would die out from low birth rates in a few centuries! However, at least in some areas (i.e., Cormyr, off the top of my head), and in certain social classes/circles, it's been etablished that there are sexual mores/"unwritten laws" regarding who can do what to who and with whose chicken. (I'm referring to Stormlight, here, but there are plenty of examples.) But this is certainly true of our own culture, and everyone's pretty much getting up to as much mischief as they have time for anyway, so I'd imagine the same would go for the Realms, too.
And, as far as the person who wondered "Do they even have homosexuality in the Realms", remember that same-sex relationships were considered, by many ancient cultures, to be acceptable (or even encouraged) as a method of birth control, to relieve tension (especially between soldiers), or as a facet of a "mentor" relationship (I'm looking at you here, Greece). I'm sure as hell not trying to open that can of worms, but just keep in mind that sentient beings will be sentient beings.
On another note, there's plenty of published material (not necessarily Realms, but generic D&D) regarding the sexual habits of the demihuman races. Elves were described as having a "wild period" (lasting about as long as a human life) during which they would try "any and every" form of coupling, along with any other type of self-indulgence imaginable, before they settled down to be "respectable" elves. (Many, if not most, half-elves are supposed to have resulted from these unions.) Dwarves, on the other hand, were depicted as being as stodgy as you'd imagine, but powerfully single-minded in their couplings, and as passionate as they would be about a fine axe or ale. However, with the low rate of females to males, they were also depicted as seeing male-to-male pairings as perfectly acceptable. (I'm not making this up - and how TSR ever let this stuff get published is beyond me, but there you have it.) Some of this is, if I recall correctly, from the "best of Dragon" compilation, and some from the 2nd edition "guide to elves", but if anyone knows better than I do, feel free to speak up. |
Edited by - DestroyYouAlot on 01 Nov 2005 17:48:21 |
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DestroyYouAlot
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 17:47:07
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| Oh, and as far as Cormyr goes, remember also that Azoun himself is supposed to have "sown his oats" far and wide before settling down with Filfaeril, with more than a few illegitimate offspring, so that shows you how much power those oh-so-restrictive sexual mores have in reality. (Realmsality?) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 19:50:40
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| Azoun also had something of an "open marriage" even when he was with Filfaeril, according to Ed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 23:14:03
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Thanks destroyyoualot. That was excatly the way I was thinking of.
We are nowadays in a period where we have certain customs and values, where sexual relationships are encouraged to be inside a relationship, even in marriage. And same sex relationships are still a bit frowned upon.
I know of the more open minded cultures is the past.
I live in Holland which is renowned for its tolerant opinion on homosexuality (amongst other things  ).
Knowing this, I always wondered what the influence of the morality of the designers and publishers was to the Realms. Some sort of code, like that of the balance between good and bad.
Sometimes something slips through this apparant code, fitting in the realm of fantasy, which I find amusing and acceptable.
Heck it is a fantasy world, and I would hate it being a replica of our own doomed earth |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 23:43:16
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The Realms have been fairly open, Ed Greedwood has talked about writing content that he expected the censors would edit out. Writting a lot of it so that some might actually get into print.
As for canon I do not know of any church that requires marriage before sex, condemns any private activity that two or more consenting adults choose to do.
The laws I am aware of are doing harm, protecting the peple or punishment on those that harm the people.
One thing discussed was if there was a public intoxication law. There is not one in Waterdeep, the laws that do kick in is if a Dronk person is causing harm and sometimes passed out on the streets.
Have a girl friend and a boyfriend, heck marry them both if you want (though some Clerics might not sanction plural mariages, never saw the issue come up though).
The Realms appears to be built about Good vs Evil, Chaos vs. Law with the prime focus of desired and undesired interaction. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 01 Nov 2005 23:44:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 00:11:07
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| Ed's said that the attitude regarding sex in the Realms is basically this: So long as there's no harm done and it's between consenting adults, it's all good. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 18:35:24
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I'd like to think that sexuality on Earth is as "free" as those involved would like it to be, though (for some reason I can't stand it when people say "the Realms is 'freer' than it is on Earth"--that doesn't have to be true).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Morality and hersey in the Realms
