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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 17 May 2005 : 01:21:12
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I just found myself pondering something...
Deities in the Realms die. Sometimes they are replaced. Sometimes they are not. And sometimes, another deity comes along and pretends to be the fallen one.
Lolth, for example, had nothing to do with the death of Moander, but has assumed his identity. Cyric and Mask slew Leira, and Cyric granted spells in her name. Shar slew Ibrandul, and took over his job. The list goes on...
But what about the clerics? How does this work for them?
First, do they sense the death of their deity?
Second, when the imposter starts granting spells, is there any change? Moander, for example, had dominion over plants, but Lolth does not. Do clerics of Moander receive plant spells still, or have those spells been replaced by other spells? And if it's the former, how does a deity grant prayers governing something that's not in their portfolio?
And what about manifestations, divine minions, and contact with the deity? Does the imposter carry it out that far, sending the same stuff the fallen deity would have, or do they send their own goodies? And when a cleric casts a spell that offers some sort of divine contact, do they contact a facade or do they suddenly find themselves face-to-face with the imposter?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 01:46:46
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quote:
But what about the clerics? How does this work for them?
First, do they sense the death of their deity?
It appears to work fine in most cases. Short of using comune they would not know their deity died. At best the way to explain it is they call for spells from the domain or portfolio and such spells can be granted by other deities.
quote:
Second, when the imposter starts granting spells, is there any change? Moander, for example, had dominion over plants, but Lolth does not. Do clerics of Moander receive plant spells still, or have those spells been replaced by other spells? And if it's the former, how does a deity grant prayers governing something that's not in their portfolio?
This becomes harder to answer if a domain is not gained, though free floating portfolios do not appear to exist, somebody picks them up, perhaps even AO or other high ranked divine being (without noticing it). The rules do not indicate any change, there again the rules premit worship of a concept. The concept might be good enough to provide domain access even if the only deity that has the domain dies, besides deities do not stay dead.
quote:
And what about manifestations, divine minions, and contact with the deity? Does the imposter carry it out that far, sending the same stuff the fallen deity would have, or do they send their own goodies? And when a cleric casts a spell that offers some sort of divine contact, do they contact a facade or do they suddenly find themselves face-to-face with the imposter?
Well deities are fairly powerful so all except the last certainly can occur. They will not find themself face to face with an imposter, because the deity will not let them know they are seeing an imposter. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 02:03:55
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| Wooly, clerics don't sense their deity's death. They may have a strange feeling, but do not actually know if their deity is gone. I, however, am not sure about people like Chosens. After all, they have such a bond wiht their deities that they may know if something happens to their patron. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 09:52:37
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| Lolth pretending to be Moander? I hadn`t heard that before. Doesn`t Moander`s followers know that Finder took moanders place? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 10:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Lolth pretending to be Moander? I hadn`t heard that before.
Check out Lolth's entry in Demihuman Deities for some brief information on this development. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:28:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This becomes harder to answer if a domain is not gained, though free floating portfolios do not appear to exist, somebody picks them up, perhaps even AO or other high ranked divine being (without noticing it). The rules do not indicate any change, there again the rules premit worship of a concept. The concept might be good enough to provide domain access even if the only deity that has the domain dies, besides deities do not stay dead.
But we're not talking about worshipping concepts, we're talking about worshipping particular entities. And regardless of whether or not the deity comes back from the dead (and Moander has not), there's still the time that they were gone.
Lolth cannot grant plant magic. Moander could. So how could she grant those spells to his followers? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Kentinal
But we're not talking about worshipping concepts, we're talking about worshipping particular entities. And regardless of whether or not the deity comes back from the dead (and Moander has not), there's still the time that they were gone.
Lolth cannot grant plant magic. Moander could. So how could she grant those spells to his followers?
"The spell you have selected is currently out of stock, please make another selection." *wink*
I would though go with if the Cleric has the plant Domain that the spell would still be granted, that the Domain trumps whatever deities are out there granting spells for the Domain. If Lolth is able to pretend to be Moander she somehow is able to grant spells like Moander is the only other answer I offer at this time. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 13:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Lolth cannot grant plant magic. Moander could. So how could she grant those spells to his followers?
As I would *loosely* interpret it, I would see it as based more on the incantation itself, and how it shapes the divine energy drawn from a deity. In this instance, all the divine energy that comes from a deity is relatively the same. It is the nature of the spell itself, and the way it is cast that actually decides what that divine energy is used for.
If this *is* the case, then regardless of which deity is actually supplying the energy, the spells specific to a certain domain or portfolio can still be cast, but I would involve a certain spell level decrease to illustrate that the "true" deity is not being accessed for the divine energy.
Now, as I said, this is a "loose" interpretation made between the frantic readings of data structures at work.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 14:19:16
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Actually, thinking about this further, I don't think that is enough. If this is true, then it would seem that this would suggest that individual deity worship itself is relatively worthless beyond the point of a cleric being "faithful" to a particular deity. But then, maybe that is the point of worship... to ensure the future well-being of your soul when you pass onto the Fugue Plane -- you want your deity to come and collect your soul and take you to your place among the planes.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 17:34:19
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Well, deities have total control over their portfolios... So if an imposter deity doesn't have the portfolios, they should not be able to grant spells they previously couldn't grant.
But of course, that means that the Moanderite cleric is now wondering why his plant spells won't work... So how is the imposter supposed to convince the follower that they are the real deal? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 19:55:49
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Well there does appear to be little difference except what "heaven" one goes to, the individual can throw away one deity and replace or not as they choose, with the rare ecepetion of when the deity takes personal affort and deals with the follower one way or another.
With Moander until a deity picks up the potfolio they are free floating, Lolth may have barrowed them in order to grant plant spells, though the core rules really tend to indicate the Domain is what is needed to be picked up.
I can add one more theory, Lolth polymorphs self into Moander to grant the Domain spells part of the day thus gain access to the Domains. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 21:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, deities have total control over their portfolios... So if an imposter deity doesn't have the portfolios, they should not be able to grant spells they previously couldn't grant.
But of course, that means that the Moanderite cleric is now wondering why his plant spells won't work... So how is the imposter supposed to convince the follower that they are the real deal?
Isn´t it disappointing what they did with the Deities & Demigods? Now only deities with appropriate Domains, divine abilities and class levels may grant (and wield) certain powers. For example, paladins of Helm cannot receive spells from him, since Helm doesn´t have any paladin levels (being a LN deity). So other deities grant his paladin followers their spells. And no more unlimited shapeshifting for demigods... *sigh*
What I just cannot understand is that why they had to come up with the stat blocks and "salient divine abilities" for deities... and why some deities have more class levels than others (Azuth, for example, has more levels than most of the Greater gods).
Thus I decided to ignore all stat blocks or divine abilities in respect to what deities are capable of - I don´t think divine beings should be limited in regard to abilities or spells ("Sorry, but Tempus is unable to use Resurrection, so he can only cast Raise Dead on your character").
Just think that according to the Deities & Demigods Tymora and Beshaba couldn´t exist. Didn´t Moander assume the shape of a rose, which Tyche picked up and put into her hair? Then the Darkbringer´s corruption slowly grew within her eventually splitting into the twin goddesses... but only an intermediate or greater deity could achieve this feat with salient divine abilities...
But now I am straying off the course. My original point was that in my opinion deities should be able imitate and masquerade other deities in respect to their domains and portfolios, despite what the rules say.
In my campaign Moander is still an active deity - not killed and replaced by either Finder or Lolth. I just love those slimy, primordial "All eyes and tentacles"-type deities from the Dawn Days  (such as Moander and Ghaunadaur). I was a bit disappointed in the list of Moander´s domains provided in LEoF, and changed it followingly: Chaos, Corruption, Destruction, Evil, Plant.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 03:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, deities have total control over their portfolios... So if an imposter deity doesn't have the portfolios, they should not be able to grant spells they previously couldn't grant.
That true, but as I stated earlier... all divine energy is essentially the same... mostly. It is how the energy is used by the cleric that determines the nature of the spell cast.
quote:
But of course, that means that the Moanderite cleric is now wondering why his plant spells won't work... So how is the imposter supposed to convince the follower that they are the real deal?
Perhaps the impostor deity in question creates a "fake" clergy for himself using mortals easily swayed by promises of power and wealth. There are likely some clerics who would desire more representation than what they see or believe, but the less-discriminate among them, may see this new clergy as being "true" to the spirit of their god while at the same time it is actually supporting the impostor deity.
I think the aim here is for the impostor deity to target young initiates, or clerics who have just taken their orders, rather than those higher up on a church's heirarchy. The faith of these younger clerics is probably still a little uncertain, and could be swayed by cunning deities and their impostor faithful...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 03:56:22
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I've always thought that if I was DM-ing a game, that I would be an 'involved' DM when it came to my cleric PCs. I like the idea of portents, manifestations, dream signs and more in your face actions such as tinkering with spell prayers. I'd have my cleric PC present to me a list of what spells he was praying for in any given day and then give him the spells as I saw fit - in other words, as his deity saw fit.
As for the original question, it kind of matches my thoughts above in terms of how I'd handle imposter deities. My cleric PCs wouldn't have any idea about their god in terms of what they looked like, sounded like etc. - unless such knowledge happened in game and for a reason. Not everyone is a Chosen of Mystra and gets to play ... *ahem* ... hide the Staff of the Magi with their patron god.
Imposter deities have to be examined as to the reasons why they've assumed the guise of a fallen god. Is it to attract new worshippers, to subvert or oppose allies or foes of the fallen deity, or because the fallen deity's activities impacted upon aspects of the assuming deity's areas of interest, worshippers or similar facets of their sphere of control. This would probably answer the question as to how far the imposter is prepared to go to 'look' like the fallen deity.
Oh, and I wouldn't let rules like domains etc. ruin a good story or plot hook or campaign. Big deal if Lolth doesn't have the plant domain - for her Moander worshippers, she does. Pure and simple.
The mystery surrounding the gods has been all but stripped bare in the D&D game. My intent as a DM would be to bring that sense of mystery and the unknown back. Imposter deities gives a DM opportunities re the campaign and the meta-game plot. The cleric of "Ibrandul" who is surreptitiously being subverted by Shar, but helps out the PCs when they are trapped in Undermountain; the cult of Xvim worshippers who refuse to accept Bane's return and quietly assist the PCs in their battles against Bane and his minions; etc. etc.
-- George Krashos
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 04:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh, and I wouldn't let rules like domains etc. ruin a good story or plot hook or campaign. Big deal if Lolth doesn't have the plant domain - for her Moander worshippers, she does. Pure and simple.
That's what I was getting at earlier, by the fact of trying to come up with an in-game reason through the story for a cleric to serve an impostor deity. Rules should never undermine the plot of a campaign.
quote:
The mystery surrounding the gods has been all but stripped bare in the D&D game. My intent as a DM would be to bring that sense of mystery and the unknown back. Imposter deities gives a DM opportunities re the campaign and the meta-game plot. The cleric of "Ibrandul" who is surreptitiously being subverted by Shar, but helps out the PCs when they are trapped in Undermountain; the cult of Xvim worshippers who refuse to accept Bane's return and quietly assist the PCs in their battles against Bane and his minions; etc. etc.
Indeed again, much like I was stating earlier.
Deities have access to greater methods and abilities that mortal worshippers can never truly understand. If they wish to create for themselves, a way to become the impostor of a fallen deity, they will find a way to do it... whether it be through mortal efforts or a much deeper subversion like what George was just saying.
We are dealing with perceptions here... the perceptions of a cleric with regard to a fallen deity. Perceptions can be altered and mortals can be lied to. Deities should never be limited in what they can and cannot do for the sake of rules and stats.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:41:22
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| Okay, I can see what y'all are getting at... And I suppose it's good enough for me. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:19:53
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Hey Wooly, if you still feel like there is a point to contest, feel free. These are always very interesting questions... as they sometimes raise further points to consider.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 11:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hey Wooly, if you still feel like there is a point to contest, feel free. These are always very interesting questions... as they sometimes raise further points to consider.
Nah, I can accept the points y'all made.
Now I need to do a bit of research on another topic, because something in the Bazim-Gorag entry caught my eye... |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 11:39:57
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Excuse the interruption, I would like to ask a question:
1)If a god or goddess had been slain, and his/her portfolio taken over by another god or goddess and proclaims to be the diety(which is slain) to the diety followers, so the powers these imposters grants to the slain deity followers, are the powers the same as the original deity granted or some imitation and can there be some slight difference in the powers granted by the original and the imposter deity?
2) Also, must the imposter inform Ao that he/she needed permission to take over a dead deity portfolio? Surely Ao must be informed.
Replies to my questions are welcomed and thanks to anyone for replying to this question. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Defender
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 12:02:46
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Hello, I also have another question besides Shadovar's questions:
1) For those followers of an imposter god/goddess, will the imposter god/goddess use subtle means to coerce the followers of the dead deity to do things that are actually furthering the imposter god/goddess own cause? |
Justice is swift and will strike when you least expect it. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 12:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Excuse the interruption, I would like to ask a question:
1)If a god or goddess had been slain, and his/her portfolio taken over by another god or goddess and proclaims to be the diety(which is slain) to the diety followers, so the powers these imposters grants to the slain deity followers, are the powers the same as the original deity granted or some imitation and can there be some slight difference in the powers granted by the original and the imposter deity?
If the entire portfolio is taken over it should follow that there would be no change in powers that can be granted. This case we are talking about Lolth did not get the portfolio, just claims to be Moander in a long term bid to change the worship to more of her likeing or just increase the number that worship her (though they do not know it). The number of worshippers is one way to retain and increase power.
quote:
2) Also, must the imposter inform Ao that he/she needed permission to take over a dead deity portfolio? Surely Ao must be informed.
AO appears not to care that much about portfolio ownership, AO certainly would be aware of such transactions without being notified by the new owner.
At least that is how I believe it works. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 14:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Defender
Hello, I also have another question besides Shadovar's questions:
1) For those followers of an imposter god/goddess, will the imposter god/goddess use subtle means to coerce the followers of the dead deity to do things that are actually furthering the imposter god/goddess own cause?
Well, one would have to assume so, particularly if it's a case like that of Lolth pretending to be Moander or Shar pretending to be Ibrandul. All of the gods are constantly trying to see any number of plots to fruition. Pretending to be a dead peer and manipulating their followers is just another way of doing that.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 14:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now I need to do a bit of research on another topic, because something in the Bazim-Gorag entry caught my eye...
Oooh... sounds interesting  . If you do find something, do you intend to elaborate on what you've found?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 17:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now I need to do a bit of research on another topic, because something in the Bazim-Gorag entry caught my eye...
Oooh... sounds interesting . If you do find something, do you intend to elaborate on what you've found?
Yup. What I found is a possible discrepancy, but I need to reread the entry to make sure. If I did see what I thought I saw, I need to check on something else before I make my comments on it. Actually, the latter thing would likely remain a good point even if I did misread the other thing, but I still need to research it. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 18:21:08
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WOTC also changed the rules now for divine casters with Champions of Ruin. Divine casters no longer need a deity to get spells or at least rangers and druids don't because the write up for the elven organization that hunts humans says that they are getting thier spells from Nature and not from a deity.
SOOOOOO this is how it is in the PHB and it changes what is in the FRCS and almost every FR book going back to 1e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 May 2005 18:23:08 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 18:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
WOTC also changed the rules now for divine casters with Champions of Ruin. Divine casters no longer need a deity to get spells or at least rangers and druids don't because the write up for the elven organization that hunts humans says that they are getting thier spells from Nature and not from a deity.
SOOOOOO this is how it is in the PHB and it changes what is in the FRCS and almost every FR book going back to 1e.
ARGH! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 18:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
WOTC also changed the rules now for divine casters with Champions of Ruin. Divine casters no longer need a deity to get spells or at least rangers and druids don't because the write up for the elven organization that hunts humans says that they are getting thier spells from Nature and not from a deity.
SOOOOOO this is how it is in the PHB and it changes what is in the FRCS and almost every FR book going back to 1e.
ARGH!
Echoes that ARGH! And rises it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 22:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
WOTC also changed the rules now for divine casters with Champions of Ruin. Divine casters no longer need a deity to get spells or at least rangers and druids don't because the write up for the elven organization that hunts humans says that they are getting thier spells from Nature and not from a deity.
SOOOOOO this is how it is in the PHB and it changes what is in the FRCS and almost every FR book going back to 1e.
ARGH!
Echoes that ARGH! And rises it. :)
You know, I saw that, and it did ping something in my mind, but I didn't come back and consider the ramifications of it... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2005 : 02:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
WOTC also changed the rules now for divine casters with Champions of Ruin. Divine casters no longer need a deity to get spells or at least rangers and druids don't because the write up for the elven organization that hunts humans says that they are getting thier spells from Nature and not from a deity.
SOOOOOO this is how it is in the PHB and it changes what is in the FRCS and almost every FR book going back to 1e.
What is even more disturbing is the fact that, judging from what you've written here, it bears an uncanny resemblance to certain types of divine spellcasting in Eberron...
I wonder what this means...  .
Oh, and I'd like to increase the bid on that ARGH! if it is still possible  ...
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2005 : 02:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The SageWhat is even more disturbing is the fact that, judging from what you've written here, it bears an uncanny resemblance to certain types of divine spellcasting in Eberron...
I wonder what this means... .
Oh, and I'd like to increase the bid on that ARGH! if it is still possible ...
Well I can see that for Eberron since this is how it is in the PHB but FR has always been divine spells must come from a deity and not a cause or the like. :) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Serving the imposters...
