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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2005 : 14:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The biggest problem is alignment, though I have seen arguements for the brother to be CN instead of CE.
I've never seen Vhaeraun as CE. If I recall correctly, his alignment back in Drow of the Underdark was NE. And to my knowledge, that was the first tome to feature Vhaeraun and Eilistraee....yes?
What were the arguments for CN? Did you agree with them?
quote:
Both do share a few goals, freeing from mother and Drow on the surface. The ways of bringing this about however differs greatly.
Yes, they do share some thoughts/goals.
I've always enjoyed the aspect that Vhaeraun did not mind his followers having children with non-dark elves. Of course, that fact was partly because of Vhaeraun's arrogant, naturally, belief that dark elves breed true.
And to me the difference between the brother/sister deity duo can be summarized as follows. Let's say the silenced ended differently and Mama Lolth perished. I definitely see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun gaining a sizeable number of followers that might increase their powers. How would each handle this influx of power/followers?
Eilistraee: It's now a time for dark elves to break free from the past and live in harmony with the surface races.
Vhaeraun: It's time for dark elves to break free from the past and rule as they should on the surface. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 17:26:26
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The funny thing is Vhae's got serious daddy issues...and he and Eili differ on the way they should live on the surface.
I would like seeing them work together, albeit they could never get along too well...but with the common threat of mother...
There's another interesting thing: Elistraee could see her mother die and could have her killed...but how would she act if Vhaeraun were to ascend? Could she kill her twin as well?
I'd read a novel on 'em, especially as by all rights, they should have more followers than they do |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 18:03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
The funny thing is Vhae's got serious daddy issues...
Oh yes, it's clearly Dr. Phil time for him.
quote:
I would like seeing them work together, albeit they could never get along too well...but with the common threat of mother...
The biggest obstacle to working together would be trust. Eilistraee would know she could not trust her brother for very long in any partnership. Thus, if there was some sort of temporary alliance, it would have to be because of a great threat or opportunity. Hmm, all of a sudden the WOTSQ in my campaign might be taking an interesting divergence from canon.
quote:
There's another interesting thing: Elistraee could see her mother die and could have her killed...but how would she act if Vhaeraun were to ascend? Could she kill her twin as well?
If necessary, yes I feel Eilistraee could kill her twin. But, it would have to be to stop Vhaeraun from doing something really bad or to save her own life. I don't ever see Eilistraee striking down her brother simply to gain power. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 18:07:28
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Temporary threat could easily be Lolth, what with Lady Penitent slaughtering Eilistraeeans, Vhaeraunites and followers of the Seldarine...and SB, great minds think alike-in regards to the Dr. Phil and the FR campaign big.
As for Eili and Vhae...I also think if it was all or nothing, Eili could kill Vhaeraun...but I doubt she could do it with a clear heart, or without grief...I think she may even have mourned her mother. I maintain Eilistraee still loves her family, even if Vhaeraun could kill them without a backwards glance to see if their corpses twitched. (I'm still confident we may see these two in the spotlight one day...though Kiaransalee should be an Orcus chew toy and Ghaunadaur and Selvetarm can sit on stalagmites...) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 18:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Temporary threat could easily be Lolth, what with Lady Penitent slaughtering Eilistraeeans, Vhaeraunites and followers of the Seldarine...
Imagine if the two deities had actually worked together or tried to work together during Mama Lolth's silence.
quote:
As for Eili and Vhae...I also think if it was all or nothing, Eili could kill Vhaeraun...but I doubt she could do it with a clear heart, or without grief...I think she may even have mourned her mother. I maintain Eilistraee still loves her family,
I think Eilistraee still hopes her brother will change. I think she clearly knows Mama Lolth is a lost cause. Thus, yes, if Eilistraee killed Vhaeraun, she would mourn to some degree no matter the circumstances.
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(I'm still confident we may see these two in the spotlight one day...
I'm glad you feel confident of such an event taking place. I highly doubt it will ever take place as long as....well, I just don't see it happening. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 18:50:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
(I'm still confident we may see these two in the spotlight one day...
I'm glad you feel confident of such an event taking place. I highly doubt it will ever take place as long as....well, I just don't see it happening.
As long as what? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 05:05:13
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| I think I would fill in that blank with "..as long as Lolth is a prominent deity." |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE.  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 05:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by R0GUE
I think I would fill in that blank with "..as long as Lolth is a prominent deity."
 I think I've created a new version of the Match Game show. Alas, what I was about to say best stay in PM or private emails. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 13:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The biggest problem is alignment, though I have seen arguements for the brother to be CN instead of CE.
I've never seen Vhaeraun as CE. If I recall correctly, his alignment back in Drow of the Underdark was NE. And to my knowledge, that was the first tome to feature Vhaeraun and Eilistraee....yes?
What were the arguments for CN? Did you agree with them?
Just checked most current source I have indicates that he is now CE, could have started as NE but most Elven gods are Chaotic, IIRC, certainly the leader is.
Part of augement was to provide more balance one Good, one Evil and one Neutral. He certainly is not as evil as mother and certainly not as good as sister.
There can be some merit to doing such a change, though he would lose Evil Domain I would expect. He cerainly does some evil things, however he seeks to undo the Evil of his mother as to the treatment of males, without turning about and treating females as slaves. Some could argue he is more gender equal then either mother or sister, this beause there is little said about how equal Eilistraee deals with males. We do however know Sword Dancers have to be female.
The alignment system does of course have its limitations in some ways I can see CN being better then either NE or CE. While supporting some evil enterprises also have policy of giving aid to thieves, exacting justice (vengence is a type of justice after al) for injury done to followers, a mix of good and bad. No human sacifice, such as mother demands, seeks to build an united Drow community and so on.
Take your pick. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 13:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Just checked most current source I have indicates that he is now CE, could have started as NE but most Elven gods are Chaotic, IIRC, certainly the leader is.
He did apparently start as NE. Page 42 of The Drow of the Underdark lists Vhaeraun as NE. That apparently changed with Demihuman Deities.
quote:
He cerainly does some evil things, however he seeks to undo the Evil of his mother as to the treatment of males, without turning about and treating females as slaves.
He's certainly more inclusive towards those of mixed elven blood than his mother.
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The alignment system does of course have its limitations in some ways I can see CN being better then either NE or CE.
Actually, I can see CN way before CE and most likely a better fit than NE as well. And yes, the alignment system does have limitations when it comes to characters let alone when talking deities.
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 14:28:52
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I was really disapointed with the endings of Book Six. I'm not disapointed with the way Paul wrote it, I thought it did a great job, gave plenty of detail and everything else. I just don't like the fact of how they had him end it, it felt as though the entire series with meaningless to me.
Danifae? Oh come on! Her being the Vessle of Lolth? I don't see the meaning behind it, but ok.
Halisstra? What is she now? A Chosen? A Avatar of Sorts? It didn't seem fitting. They should have let her die a while back after the "This Deity, no this one! No! This one!" ordeal...
Quenthel? I dont' understand why she was brought back from the dead, sent on this mission and then sent back. Is she nothing more than the head mistress of the clerical school now? It felt in the end it was meaningless.
Pharun? Eh..Ok. I'm 50/50 on this one. His ending was bogo to me. Again, someone far to powerful wasted in this story. Hell, he killed a fourth clone of a powerful 'loth. Not as large as a task as Dyrr V. Baenre, but a task. His ending was like a throw off.
Jeggred/Valas? Jeggred was to be expected. But I'd of prefered to see him eaten by a demon or sucked into a vortex back home with a demon. valas- His character should have ended back in the end of book five. I was very content with the ending in book five with him. Should have been left like that.
Now to the gods...
I've already more or less made my statement about Lolth. I found it to be obscure. What I don't understand is why the Twins did not put differences aside to strike their mother at her weakest in dozens of millenias (or so.).
They both saw oppurtuinty, they both saw thousands of followers to their door steps, they both saw the chance to bring drow/dark elves back to the surface. There characters in the story was bogo. They do always get played as "Dumb gods" and such. Obviously they're both as intelligent as their mother and should be portrayed as so! And, I never see the two of them being able to destroy one another. Since they are twins, they may hold some sort of Deity-Twin Power that if one goes, the other goes or is greatly weakend. Perhaps only the two of them know of this.
Ok, I'm done ranting. If I were to ever have a campaign, it would be in there but with a much different outcome.
And, Corellon would have learned of this from the start and kept a close eye on this. Now with a Greater Ex-Wife, anyone believe we'll see Corellon and crew return soon? |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Crystaldragon
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2005 : 23:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
A. Halisstra became despicable and ridiculous later on.
B. She's gonna be slaughtering Vhaeraunites and Elistraeeans...I'm getting sick and tired of a Goddess as flat and boring as Lolth going to the forefront over Vhaeraun and Eilistraee...who have more potential and character in their little fingers than the Spider Wench's bloated body
 Agreed! (We need a "clapping" smiley)
The thing I like about Vhaeraun is that he seems to be the only member of the evil Drow pantheon who has a clue that if the Drow keep spending so much of their time in internecine squabbles and warfare, they're always going to remain a second-rate power. Since he failed to get rid of Lolth, who likes nothing better than pointless fighting and murder, he must know that increased cooperation isn't likely to happen any time soon. So, I would like to see him and his followers break away from the main Drow society even more than they already have. If they do, they'll need new allies in order to avoid being slaughtered, and that opens up a lot of interesting possibilities. Perhaps he and his sister could move (slowly) toward a reconciliation. I would like to see his alignment shift toward NE as he rejects the utter chaos of Lolth, and maybe even N down the road.
As for events in the novels as they relate to my campaign, I think we will have most of the big events happen, but the timeline will be different in order to accommodate things that have happened (or failed to happen) during play. We are also planning to have a large influx of drow refugees coming into the Dalelands as a result of the upheaval caused by the WotSQ. Menzo may have survived, but not all houses did. The newly houseless will be looking for somewhere to go, which opens up opportunities for Jaelre drow to recruit. We will probably focus more on Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and wiping out the already weakened Kiaransalee than on Lolth, who everybody in my group is a little sick of.
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-Crystaldragon
"Do good if you can. Do evil if you must."
-Armand "The Black"
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 03:08:49
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How is Big K weakend? If anything, she has gained the most from Lolth's uprise of sorts.
She (Wether offical or not, I am unsure) is a Lesser Deity now and thus isn't weak (In the sense) anymore. We won't see any demise of any drow Deity but Lolth her self in about ten/twenty book years.
Or in four years when there is another ToT (Celbrating 20 Years ;)) of sorts then. |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:38:30
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| Everything Canon in FR occurs in my campaign. To me the Forgotten Realms is a large collaborative world. That's what makes it so great. In no way could I erase anything that has happened, wether a player doesn't like Lolth's silence or even if Ed Greenwood still has Bhaal and no Cyric in his campaign, I go by collaboration. That's what the realms are, so that's how I use it :) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Leronian
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 20:30:29
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Ok, Maybe I'm taking this way too seriously but I just finished this book and I find it really disturbing. In a way it makes sense that if Hallistra can't make up her mind, and passes up multiple chances for redmption that she would suffer. Still it really bothers me that that entire Elestrean subplot vanishes into nothing.
Also, what is with that scene near the end of the book where Danifae becomes a bitter strumpet with no power or station? How then was she also Lolth reborn?
I guess since all the charecters are Drow, one can't really expect a happy ending, but it seems every "good guy" dies and every marginally sympathetic bad guy also buys it.
Thanks for any input,
Leronian |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2005 : 17:39:54
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I'm going to throw Lloth's Silence at my players, partly as a distraction in the way of one character attempting to imprison Shar. Since my group is both very smart and leading very powerful characters (and have a rather large axe to grind against the drow), I expect some serious fireworks.
As to the larger picture, I think I'm going to give my players a chance to shadow the novel characters as they're moving through the Abyss in Condemnation (I've only read books 1-4), and use them to slip into the sanctum as well. The idea is the do exactly the same thing Tzirik (sp?) does, only they'd summon Corellon, who'd make short work of Lloth.
That's how I'd like the Silence to work. Much more fun to watch all the repurcussions of Lloth being dead than what apparently happens in the series. Now we'll just have to see if my player's pull it off. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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biomante
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2005 : 20:44:40
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Damn, I am glad this thread exists; it is great to see people out there that share a lot of my views.
SB, Ethriel, Slime lord: most of my views have been mentioned by you already, so I won't repeat them. (Just one maybe: how can Vhaeraun, in the name of a thousand devils, loose a hand to Selvetarm?! )
Shouldn't Vhaeraun have alerted the Jaezzred Chaulssin (his deadliest worshippers probably?)about his plot to get summoned to Lolth's realm, so they could have sent someone to protect Tsirik? (sp?). Or to help along other loose ends?
Maybe I am not seeing the big picture here, and Vhaeraun considered the conquest and destruction of Drow cities more important than killing Lolth herself? (Of course, it is obvious that the conquest of Lolth-clergy dominated cities will weaken Lolth)
I truly hope some author(s) picks up the storyline and gives it the development it deserves.
PS:Details about the Jaezzred Chaulssin would be really appreciated.(Guild structure, leaders, how to join, benefits of membership, related prestige-classes, etc.)
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"And his eyes had all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming..." |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2005 : 01:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Mine will-once I've gotten around to running a game incorporating them as a major theme.
Until then, Lolth's silence hasn't happened.
Having *just* actually finished this series(I literally closed it, wrote a note on the Lady Penitent, one on the yugoloths of the Blood Rift, and one on something else), I'm thinking this will be the first series I change ending events from.
1. I've always hated Gromph for some reason-I'm changing two pieces of continuity and making Pharaun survive and become the Archmage of Menzoberranzan, while Gromph was obliterated by the last element of the Lichdrow's master ward.(I don't suppose anyone's willing to post a summary of the abilities of the robe of the archmage of Menzoberranzan, as I can't find it in VGtAM, and DDGtU isn't much help in finding where it's from?)
2. I'm thinking Krashos Morueme wouldn't have given up control of Ched Nasad to the Jaezred Chaulssin that easily. I figure, if any players of mine pass by Ched Nasad, they might find a shadowy political struggle in progress... |
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War of the Spider Queen in your Realms?(Spoilers)
