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pure
Acolyte
Australia
5 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 10:32:58
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as some may have seen i am looking to increase my knoweldge of the realms.(at the momnet i know only what is simmerler to greyhawk and the drizzt series) shouuld i learn through the source books or novels
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 12:41:48
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The best answer is probably both.
It really depends on what you want to learn. If there are certain events you would like to know about and there is a novel about them than the novel would be the most complete description of those events, time of troubles comes to mind for an example of this. You can find all the essentials about the time of troubles in a sourcebook but the novels will help you to completely understand what happened.
There are however some events that aren't novelized. The return of Bane, the destruction of Hellgate Keep, and the Manshoon wars being notable events that did not get written about in a novel  . The first two received only small blurbs informing you the basics of what happened in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. The latter received a little more attention in a 2E sourcebook Cloak and Dagger.
If you want a basic overall knowledge of the realms I would start with the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Then I would probably get into some novels.
However, there are sourcebooks with very little lore in them and are really only useful if you are playing a D&D in the realms. The Player's Guide to Faerun is an example of this, it has some realmslore but not nearly enough to merrit the purchase of the book in my opinion. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 15:54:08
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If you're goal is to learn enough about the realms to play a session of D&D, then the sourcebooks are more than enough. Forgotten Realms sourcebook in particular are usually chock full of interesting tidbits of lore and other fluffy bits.
I myself happen to enjoy the *world* of the realms, more than playing D&D in the realms. For me, a few lines or paragraphs in a sourcebook, fluffy as they may be, are not enough. Novels allow you to go 'behind the scenes' and see the details behind a particular event. The personas behind the event are fleshed out and their motivations are revealed. Novels are great at answering “why” an event occurred instead of just “what” occurred.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 16:17:37
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| I'm going to go with both as well. There are things in novels that don't appear in sourcebooks and vice versa. :) Or novels expand on things in sourcebooks and vice versa. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 16:26:09
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I'd have to go with Kuje on this also.
I regularly make use of fluff material from novels just as much as I do from the sourcebooks. I often make a habit of jotting down notes and references to Realmslore that appear in novels that are either too trivial or too specific for detailing in a large sourcebook that needs to concentrate on the "big" things.
It is these "little" details that can sometimes make all the difference in a fluff-heavy campaign... which is the type I always run  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 16:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd have to go with Kuje on this also.
I regularly make use of fluff material from novels just as much as I do from the sourcebooks. I often make a habit of jotting down notes and references to Realmslore that appear in novels that are either too trivial or too specific for detailing in a large sourcebook that needs to concentrate on the "big" things.
It is these "little" details that can sometimes make all the difference in a fluff-heavy campaign... which is the type I always run
I agree with that assessment. For me, the novels complete the sourcebooks to give me a strong sense of what life is like in the Realms. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 16:10:41
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quote:
Originally posted by pure
as some may have seen i am looking to increase my knoweldge of the realms.(at the momnet i know only what is simmerler to greyhawk and the drizzt series) shouuld i learn through the source books or novels
I always suggest that someone new to the realms read the Avatar series as soon as possible. I think it's a great read, but even those scribes who didn't love the books the way I did usually agree that they are a great place to start. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 22:46:09
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| There's no such consensus here, and there wasn't on the wizards.com novels board either. I'm with those who think they're a lousy introduction to the Realms. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 23:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There's no such consensus here, and there wasn't on the wizards.com novels board either. I'm with those who think they're a lousy introduction to the Realms.
Echoes this. I hate that whole event. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 23:56:01
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| I didn't dislike the trilogy. I consider it required Realms reading, but it's not the best place to get a feel for the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 00:34:54
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I think the best novels to get a feel on the realms would have to be either Greenwoods (One would hope.  ) Or possibly the Salvatore stuff. The Salvatore stuff for what just a small group can achieve. But then, if you want to get grandiose, just read the Return of the Archwizards trilogy... talk about screwing up the whole realms.
Just ignore the whole Takari part. |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 00:45:05
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Speaking as someone who put 10 years of his life into TSR/WotC and the Realms, I'll say this:
The sourcebooks and the modules and the boxed sets and game books are all the facts and "nonfiction"/"hard info" on Abeir-Toril, Faerun, and all the lands in between.
The novels bring all that information to life (sometimes canonically, sometimes taking liberties).
If I were looking to introduce someone to the Realms, I'd toss them novels, as they're easier pills to digest, they provide a lot more "in the now" action, and they're only telling a story, not trying to teach you the history of the world/country/city.
Best suggestions for widest array of info--the short story anthologies.
Best suggestions for "truest feel for Realms"--any books by Cunningham, Greenwood, or Grubb (and Baker & Salvatore coming in close seconds)
After all, you'd not get people interested in spy thrillers or mysteries by making them read CIA factbooks and Phillip Agee's CIA DIARY, would you? 
Steven
Who still thinks the best Realms supplements are those that provide 50% more lore than rules, but he's a wee bit biased there.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 02:20:04
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| If you want good sourcebooks with lore, go over to WotC and download The North, Lands of Intrigue, and the Villain's Lorebook for free. These are quite good sources of information and costs you absolutely nothing even if you feel they don't provide you with the knowledge you wanted. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 02:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There's no such consensus here, and there wasn't on the wizards.com novels board either. I'm with those who think they're a lousy introduction to the Realms.
Echoes this. I hate that whole event. :)
As Faraer just said, there is no common belief here among the scribes of Candlekeep about the Avatar trilogy being a 'worthwhile' introduction to the Realms. My ideal choice for an introduction to FR has, and always will be, Spellfire.
However having said that, I do agree with Wooly in that the ToT, while not the most popular event in Realms history, is still "required" reading.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 03:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Steven
Who still thinks the best Realms supplements are those that provide 50% more lore than rules, but he's a wee bit biased there...
You may just be, but I still completely agree with the first part of your statement .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 15:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Steven
Who still thinks the best Realms supplements are those that provide 50% more lore than rules, but he's a wee bit biased there....
Speaking of such things, when you are gonna be rolling some new material before us
We miss your talent.
Thanks. 
NDAs prevent me from saying too much; hopefully I'll be able to say something soon....
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 17:59:39
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quote:
NDAs prevent me from saying too much; hopefully I'll be able to say something soon....
Wow! This, alone, is a very good new! 
The Realmish community became very happy every time that you stop a little your planar voyages and came to give us more lore, Mr Khelb... err... Steven
Yuri "Chosen of Moradin" Peixoto |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 19:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Steven
Who still thinks the best Realms supplements are those that provide 50% more lore than rules, but he's a wee bit biased there....
Speaking of such things, when you are gonna be rolling some new material before us
We miss your talent.
Thanks.
NDAs prevent me from saying too much; hopefully I'll be able to say something soon....
SES
We wait with anticipation, but not much patience |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 22:44:11
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I guess its a better idea to ask why your interested in the realms pure, as it pretty much affects what sort of product you'd be looking for.
For 'fluff' (that is background on places and characters) the novels are pretty good, as are some of the sourcebooks. These are great if you are interested in writing something Realms related, but not all that applicable to a game immediatly without you creating stuff on your own from the novel.
For 'crunch' (that is information on specific rules, NPC's stats, ect), then the Campaign book is a good source (it does have some fluff, but thankfully its not overdone), and the Player Guide to Faerun has character specific information that is very useful for creating PC's and NPC's for a game session or campaign. I also liked Lords of Darkness as it contained not only background information, but some nice hooks/maps/ideas that are pretty easy to convert into an adventure or campaign.
Of the novels its a toss up, some give great area descriptions and good backstory ideas, but seem to bend or break the actual rules of the game to keep their stories going. So its difficult to say if a novel is useful for gaming or not.
Hope this helps.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 23:35:00
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For Crunch, especially 3E stuff... I really like Lost Empires of Faerun. It really put everything into perspective since it explained the beginnings of things and why certain things are the way they are. It didn't touch too much on Cormyr or Sembia or places like that, but those of use who love The People, it was a tome of great lore!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 16:30:38
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| I got introduced to the realms(and D&D) by playing Baldurs Gate 2: Shadows of Amn. That`s also a good starting point, because there are books in the game that tell of many things that have happened in the realms. (One side effect of playing the game is that I am a Helm zealot) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Setepsutekh
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 17:54:54
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Like Khorne I became interested in FR because a friend at school told me about Baldurs Gate which he lent me a copy of and my interest grew from there.
I think each media form (Sourcebook, Novel, PC/Console Game) has it's own point of view to offer on the realms.
Sourcebooks give you an overall picture of various parts of Faerun and it's prominent characters/features and hows the D&D rules operate in the realms.
Novels weave a story showing you the intricate nature of the world itself and how it's characters live and go about their lives (usually covering a quest or adventure that shapes the world around them).
PC/Console Games allow you the freedom of role-playing without worrying too much about the rules so you can just enjoy getting into character and adventuring/interacting with the world, also it combines the Sourcebook and Novel parts brilliantly in some cases bringing the world to life in some ways more than a game book or novel can on their own.
Still at the end of the day, nothing beats the power of your own imagination . |
"And so the creature was imprisoned and his tomb cast out into the desert, never would the Scourge of the Sands threaten the lands of Mulhorand...(the rest is worn away)
- Ancient hieroglyphics found amid the ruins of the Raurin Desert
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Edited by - Setepsutekh on 27 Jun 2005 18:10:10 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 03:28:46
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It really depends on what edition you are talking about. Hands down the supplements of AD&D Forgotten Realms can definately teach you more about the Realms.
On the flip side, I haven't felt strongly about any of the 3E products for the Realms. Every supplement has left me feeling the Wizards is afraid to tell us how we should run the Realms. So 3E vs Novels, the Novels win out.
AD&D FR Supplement vs Novels is a hard choice for me.
Here's how I look at it. The Novels can be taken as Bardic lore, the supplements can be treated like the laws of physics. Might be right, but maybe not. ;)
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 16:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There's no such consensus here, and there wasn't on the wizards.com novels board either. I'm with those who think they're a lousy introduction to the Realms.
I think you misunderstood me, I'm not suggesting that it paints a great picture of life in the Realms, Ed and Elaine's books do that. BUT, if you are new to the Realms and you want to understand the present day Realms, it is important that you read this series. You can't pick up Faiths and Pantheons without understanding the ToT, and FRCS is just as laden with references to the ToT. Also, I didn't imply a "consensus" of the forums, I simply said that other scribes agree, even if they did not like the series, which in my experience is an accurate statement:
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
You have to READ the Avatar trilogy, but you don't have to LIKE it. Personally, that whole series of five books are my least favorite all-time FR books. However, I agree entirely that they need to be read (well, at least the first three, the last two are optional) to understand the modern Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't dislike the trilogy. I consider it required Realms reading, but it's not the best place to get a feel for the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I do agree with Wooly in that the ToT, while not the most popular event in Realms history, is still "required" reading
quote:
Originally posted by Sandhrune
After that I read the Avatar trilogy I think that those are good ones to start with
quote:
Originally posted by Toedoe
I'd say start with The Avatar Trilogy first
I apologize if anyone felt I was trying to "speak for the forums," that was certainly not my intention.
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War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Edited by - Xysma on 29 Jun 2005 16:49:23 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:17:54
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| Yes, ironically, the first three are more important for understanding what major events have happened recently in the Realms, but the last two books, while less important than the first three from a "explanatory" point of view, are, in my opinion, a much better read than the first three, especially Prince of Lies. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 17:59:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yes, ironically, the first three are more important for understanding what major events have happened recently in the Realms, but the last two books, while less important than the first three from a "explanatory" point of view, are, in my opinion, a much better read than the first three, especially Prince of Lies.
I'll agree with that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 18:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yes, ironically, the first three are more important for understanding what major events have happened recently in the Realms, but the last two books, while less important than the first three from a "explanatory" point of view, are, in my opinion, a much better read than the first three, especially Prince of Lies.
I agree, I liked the original trilogy, but I think it's importance is more similar to sourcebook material than a great novel series. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 18:36:21
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Some people read sourcebooks and get vivid, exciting images, others find them unengaging and need real-time fiction to see what a place is like. The sourcebook just isn't a mainstream medium that people are educated how to read; there are fantasy and SF authors with big binders of notes about their milieux that sadly stay unpublished because the medium is uncommercial. I find a combination of discursive and narrative material gives the best holographic picture.
Xysma, you did say 'even those scribes who didn't love the books the way I did usually agree that they are a great place to start' (my italics). I'm hesitant to recommend people not to read something, but I think it's a better use of time to read the summary of the Avatar trilogy in the Forgotten Realms Atlas than the novels.
Prince of Lies, while technically a good novel, never felt like the Realms to me but a different, harsher, more cynical place. |
Edited by - Faraer on 29 Jun 2005 18:38:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 02:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yes, ironically, the first three are more important for understanding what major events have happened recently in the Realms, but the last two books, while less important than the first three from a "explanatory" point of view, are, in my opinion, a much better read than the first three, especially Prince of Lies.
I'll agree with that.
I'll second that also.
And, Faraer's comment about the general feeling of Prince of Lies is also something I could relate to. At times, the novels seemed also beyond what the Realms should be...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 18:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And, Faraer's comment about the general feeling of Prince of Lies is also something I could relate to. At times, the novels seemed also beyond what the Realms should be...
Didn`t Elminster say in Elminsters Daughter that only fools believe that Faerun is a fair place? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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source books vs novels
