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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:04:03
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In Elaine Cunningham's novels-don't get me wrong, she's a fantastic author and I love her books- there's usually a distinct lack of justice or closure by the time you read the end. Starlight and Shadows' ending left a lot to be desired, considering it's hard to be happy when such an unlikeable character as Shakti wins in the end, gets away completely with butchering Ysolde and Liri is left with practically nothing left...I can buy the villains getting away sometimes, but it seems to be a huge pattern with her.
Thornhold, Evermeet, Elfsong...Elaith I can actually be happy for, but Lucia Thone, Hhune, Kymil Nimesin, the Cyricist father of Cara...it's rare they pay for their crimes and more often than not, they thrive.
Furthermore: I thought Arilyn was a decent character until Silver Shadows, where the Midsummer bit with Firefox REALLY angered me...Danilo admits his love for her when she sends him packing, and has no qualms, nor guilt about hopping into bed with a random elf. And she's not even guilty about seeing Dan again! It's not like he was dead or she thought he was.
Anyways, that's my little rant... NOT intended to bash as I love Elaine's novels, but these are things that tend to irritate me about them
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Starlight and Shadows' ending left a lot to be desired, considering it's hard to be happy when such an unlikeable character as Shakti wins in the end, gets away completely with butchering Ysolde and Liri is left with practically nothing left...I can buy the villains getting away sometimes, but it seems to be a huge pattern with her.
I really enjoyed the aforementioned novel's conclusion even with Ysolde  perishing. The series' whole theme seemed to deal with consequences as the author has mentioned. Thus, the end of the novel clearly hammered that theme home.
quote:
Furthermore: I thought Arilyn was a decent character until Silver Shadows, where the Midsummer bit with Firefox REALLY angered me...Danilo admits his love for her when she sends him packing, and has no qualms, nor guilt about hopping into bed with a random elf. And she's not even guilty about seeing Dan again! It's not like he was dead or she thought he was.
I don't recall any vows being exchanged between them. In my mind, she had nothing to feel guilty for. Arilyn lived between two worlds due to her heritage. She had to come to some peace with that before being able to love Danilo. Foxfire (I believe that was his name, not Firefox which is a Clint Eastwood movie) was more welcoming than perhaps any other elf had been to Arilyn. I can understand even if she felt love for Dan, why at that moment, she became intimate with Foxfire. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:17:34
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| I do see what you mean, SB, but honestly, that Arilyn feels no guilt about that, especially considering she basically admits to Foxfire she's in love with Dan is a bit skewed...considering she thinks absolutely nothing of it when she sees Danilo again. Despite her reasons, what Arilyn did was rather despicable, even moreso as she pretty much A. says she loves Dan shortly thereafter, B. displays no moral issues over it whatsoever. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:30:12
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You're forgetting that in the Realms, our real-world morals don't always apply...
Besides, Danilo didn't begrudge her the night with Foxfire. He understood that for that one night, she was embracing her elven heritage and partaking of an elven ritual. Not only did it help put her more at peace with herself -- and thus able to accept Dan's love -- but it also showed her where her heart truly belonged. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Despite her reasons, what Arilyn did was rather despicable, even moreso as she pretty much A. says she loves Dan shortly thereafter, B. displays no moral issues over it whatsoever.
There is a line from the novelization of a movie I enjoy. It basically has the main character thinking that he could not begin to love another human being without coming to some sort of peace with himself.
I believe that fits Arilyn in this scenario. Her experience with Foxfire allowed her to grow to actually be able to love and be loved in return with Dan. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, Danilo didn't begrudge her the night with Foxfire. He understood that for that one night, she was embracing her elven heritage and partaking of an elven ritual. Not only did it help put her more at peace with herself -- and thus able to accept Dan's love -- but it also showed her where her heart truly belonged.
Well, in Dream Spheres in Bronwyn's shop, he does have some difficulty dealing with the news. But, every man in that situation, would to some extent. But, the fact that Arilyn talked to him about Foxfire shortly thereafter shows that unlike many, Dan will listen to the reasoning of another, especially when it's someone he loves.  |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 15 Apr 2005 23:35:03 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 23:48:03
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| Alright, I can buy that, considering the different set of morals in FR...though in regards to Shakti, SB...I wouldn't mind it nearly so much if Shakti was just the first and only time this has happened...but with Elaine, it's rare the main villain gets what he deserves...Kymil? Hhune? Cyricist? And this is an irritating trend in Cunningham's stories...Counselors and kings was a very thankful exception though. I don't mind a villain getting off once or twice (See: Manshoon) but when it happen practically EVERY time, it's frustrating. Extremely so. Shakti wasn't the first time that happened. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 00:35:34
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Can we blame it on Elaine also? As we discussed in the other thread, she mostly wrote under TSR and they had a code where good had to win out over evil. And seeing some of the writers guidelines WOTC has for FR novels, they maybe wanted her to write her books that way.
SOOOOOOO I wouldn't say it's 100% Elaine's doing. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 03:02:10
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| Hey does there always have to be closure?Justice for the villian???I don't mind the villian getting away.It makes me want more.The story to go on.Regardless, Elaine tells a great story.Her characters are pretty damn good.Be they hero or villian.Elaith,awesome character.WoTC should turn him loose.Let Elaine bring him...Kymil great villian.Gold Elf who made a pact with Lloth and Malar...Why would you want that to die???I mean the list could go on.In a land of great heroes.There has to be a land of great villians.Or the heroes wouldn't be great.Keep the great ones around.Just don't reassurect them. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 03:59:51
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| Yes, but the story does not seem to go on...it's been, what, six years since Kymil escaped? Why would I want him to die? He had his day in the sun, he had a good run, but between his assassinations and besieging Evermeet? I'm sorry, but he should've been killed by Lamruil right there. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Keep the great ones around.Just don't reassurect them.
Which author would do that over...and over...and over? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Yes, but the story does not seem to go on...it's been, what, six years since Kymil escaped? Why would I want him to die? He had his day in the sun, he had a good run, but between his assassinations and besieging Evermeet? I'm sorry, but he should've been killed by Lamruil right there.
Well then, I'd get a job with WOTC and tell that to their Novel line department. Elaine has commented more than once that she wouldn't mind writing stories featuring past characters. In fact, I recall her briefly giving some details on a hook that would have Kymil, Elaith, and Arilyn in an interesting scenario. But, WOTC refuses to deal with "old" characters like these. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 06:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Yes, but the story does not seem to go on...it's been, what, six years since Kymil escaped? Why would I want him to die? He had his day in the sun, he had a good run, but between his assassinations and besieging Evermeet? I'm sorry, but he should've been killed by Lamruil right there.
I agree with you here. Of all characters, there are not many that really earn my hatred than Kymil Nimesin. Lol. In Elfshadow, he wasn't that bad to me but just another fanatical elf. It was in Evermeet that he really goes evil with all the things he did and the misery that he caused. I, for one, hope that he's being tortured by the Spider Queen right now as the elf had used one of her gems to escape death at the end of Evermeet. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 12:54:48
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| Shakti is a well done character, but I would still love to see her spiked on a pole Vlad Dracul-style. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 13:55:17
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| Is WOTC not realizing we WANT to see those characters done? I mean, give the fans what they want, they make money and everyone's happy. Heck, we got a great scenario with Lamruil vs. Kymil with Lam and Maura running off already and Kymil is one of the finest, most despicable villains of the realms...ahh well, the bigwigs have screwed us over sadly. |
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Thomas M. Reid
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
334 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:22:04
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You really ought to mention in the initial post that there are spoilers in this thread. Lots of plot elements are getting bandied about.
Thomas |
"A knight is not truly virtuous, only truly resolved to be so."
www.thomasmreid.com |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M. Reid
You really ought to mention in the initial post that there are spoilers in this thread. Lots of plot elements are getting bandied about.
Thomas
 Aye, thank ye for pointing this out, Thomas. I had to shield my eyes in a couple of places myself  'tis done.
In addition, could all please try to list "SPOILER FOR <insert novel name here>" at the top of each post where relevant. Thank ye. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:27:38
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| Ah, my apologies there, guys...thanks for fixing that, Alaundo |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Is WOTC not realizing we WANT to see those characters done? I mean, give the fans what they want, they make money and everyone's happy. Heck, we got a great scenario with Lamruil vs. Kymil with Lam and Maura running off already and Kymil is one of the finest, most despicable villains of the realms...ahh well, the bigwigs have screwed us over sadly.
I don't know if it is still policy, or to what products it extended, but I did have a WotC employee tell me (on those other boards from which I was wrongfully banned) that at least as far as the web stuff went, they were not interested in what the fans wanted -- only in what they actually looked at.
I don't know that that policy extends to books or supplements, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that that policy extends to books or supplements, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
They are a company so they must have their own means to conduct research to determine future novels/gaming products. I am helpless as a fan and only have one power as a consumer. If I don't like it, WOTC doesn't get my cash. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 16:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that that policy extends to books or supplements, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
They are a company so they must have their own means to conduct research to determine future novels/gaming products. I am helpless as a fan and only have one power as a consumer. If I don't like it, WOTC doesn't get my cash.
Again, this is only speaking of web stuff... But this guy told me that they'd not want to conduct a survey to see what the fans wanted, they judged that strictly by the number of times a page was hit. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 06:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Is WOTC not realizing we WANT to see those characters done? I mean, give the fans what they want, they make money and everyone's happy. Heck, we got a great scenario with Lamruil vs. Kymil with Lam and Maura running off already and Kymil is one of the finest, most despicable villains of the realms...ahh well, the bigwigs have screwed us over sadly.
WOTC is currently on this kick of introducing new characters ONLY. I have a feeling it's simply due to the fact that they're incapable of not only putting serious effect into converted 1E & 2E characters to 3E, but also incapable of taking the criticism that goes with it when they botch the conversion.
I feel Elaine writes the way she does to leave the story open enough so that if she's given the opportunity to continue those characters, she has plenty of openings to make it seem seemless regardless of how long it's been since the last novel.
I for one would kill for another Arilyn and Danilo novel (and 3E stats!)
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 06:19:25
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Mmm.
Well -- the lack of closure (i.e., Kymil) is probably not EC's fault, since I'm led to understand that she hasn't gotten a contract to further that particular storyline. But in general? I love the way she ends books. Adventures, with very real, very lasting consequences? Oh, yes. It's what makes the books so enjoyable for me. I've always griped about fantasy fiction where, at the end, everything is made magically well. All loose-ends are tied up: villains get their just desserts, and the main characters are hailed as heroes from one end of the realm to the other. Issues between characters are all resolved. The good guys are put on a pedestal and worshipped by everybody.
No thanks. I believe that there are wounds that will never heal, and there are crimes for which there is no forgiveness. Someone dies? Don't make him/her come back at the end to attend the victory celebration, please. No, not even as a spirit. The main couple break up on bitter, bad terms? Let them stay that way; it's hardly necessary for them to kiss and make up in the epilogue. Attempts to fix every single mishap and tragedy, IMO, cheapen things and negate character development. Actions have consequences, and some goals can be achieved only at a high price. And no, it's sometimes not fair, but so? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 06:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
WOTC is currently on this kick of introducing new characters ONLY.
With some noticeable exceptions. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 06:58:09
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You know, I've been thinking about it...
And sometimes, I think it's better that the bad guy gets away. It's like Winterfox talks about, with consequences. No matter how decisely the good guys win, the stuff done by bad guys isn't magically erased. To use a very familiar example, look at the classic Star Wars trilogy. Sure, the Rebellion won, and overthrew the Empire. But what did that do for the people of Alderaan? Their world was still destroyed...
Winterfox is right. Erasing all the consequences of what happened cheapens everything the heroes had to do. Sure, it'd be nice to see the bad guy pay, but that can't always happen. And even a partial victory is better than a total defeat... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Apr 2005 06:59:05 |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 10:08:08
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| Well recently i've read a handful of FR novels which have no closure and in some cases, the bad guy wins (to a fashion!). Try the Lost Empires series. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 10:51:01
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| The hunters blades is a good example of a series where "evil" `wins partially. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 01:02:44
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| Did the good guys win in War of the Spider Queen? :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 01:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Did the good guys win in War of the Spider Queen? :)
I'm trying to figure out...who exactly the good guys would be in that series. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 01:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Did the good guys win in War of the Spider Queen? :)
It does not appear so based on some fan comments.
There again it depends on whom are considered the good guys. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2005 : 02:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I for one would kill for another Arilyn and Danilo novel (and 3E stats!)
Here here. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Justice and closure in novels (SPOILERS)
