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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Apr 2005 : 18:49:57
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This question came up between myself and a good friend.
If a creature has the ability to fly, not granted by the spell of the same name, and used a levitation spell/potion, how would you treat that in game terms? A speed or maneuverability class bonus?
Something different?
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2005 : 19:12:56
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| Hmm... if you have the fly ability, why would you bother to use levitate at all? I think that if you do actually use levitate, the magical effects would overcome the stats and bonuses of your flying ability. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2005 : 19:59:47
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All levitation does is hold you up. I might give a slight bonus to airspeed when ascending, but that's about it.
Oh, and obviously, if they lose the ability to fly, the levitate spell will keep them from crashing to the ground. |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2005 : 05:09:57
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| I've got to believe there's a bonus to flight speed and maneuverability in there somewhere. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2005 : 06:19:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
I've got to believe there's a bonus to flight speed and maneuverability in there somewhere.
Why? Levitation gives you nothing more than up or down -- and that's it. Someone who is levitating is not moving in any dimensions other than that -- they can not use levitation to walk over a crevass, or something like that. Up or down, that's it.
Flying, on the other hand, is traveling in directions other than (but including) up or down. It's a different mode of transport.
Look at it this way: tie a helium-filled ballon to a paper airplane. Is it going to go any faster or maneuver better? Nope, not at all. It may travel a bit further (discounting wind resistance, and assuming there is no wind acting on it), but that's it. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2005 : 17:07:52
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I would treat it as any spell that doesn't stack.
Use whichever feature of the two spells/abilities is the better of the two.
And if say your flight is neutralized for whatever reason, then your levitation kicks in to keep you from falling out of the sky.
I would not think that bonuses or synergy would apply. However if you feel strongly that they do, then you can always house rule it for your campaign or negotiate it with your DM.  |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 00:51:25
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| You're looking at this wrong. The ballon produces more drag than any benifit gained from lighter weight and so slows down the paper airplane and flys off never to be seen again. Fill a powered vehicle with a lighter than air substance and the vehicle will perform better and use less fuel(the whole idea behind hot air ballons and dirigibles). Take a gryphon, with a levitate spell the gryphon only needs to pull herself through the air, all her power can be focused on generating thrust since the spell negates the need for lift. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 01:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
You're looking at this wrong. The ballon produces more drag than any benifit gained from lighter weight and so slows down the paper airplane and flys off never to be seen again. Fill a powered vehicle with a lighter than air substance and the vehicle will perform better and use less fuel(the whole idea behind hot air ballons and dirigibles). Take a gryphon, with a levitate spell the gryphon only needs to pull herself through the air, all her power can be focused on generating thrust since the spell negates the need for lift.
I still don't see that having much effect on speed... Cargo planes, for example, fly at pretty much the same speeds loaded or empty.
As for maneuverability, that's more a function of design than it is speed. So levitating shouldn't effect that at all. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 02:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
You're looking at this wrong. The ballon produces more drag than any benifit gained from lighter weight and so slows down the paper airplane and flys off never to be seen again. Fill a powered vehicle with a lighter than air substance and the vehicle will perform better and use less fuel(the whole idea behind hot air ballons and dirigibles). Take a gryphon, with a levitate spell the gryphon only needs to pull herself through the air, all her power can be focused on generating thrust since the spell negates the need for lift.
I still don't see that having much effect on speed... Cargo planes, for example, fly at pretty much the same speeds loaded or empty.
As for maneuverability, that's more a function of design than it is speed. So levitating shouldn't effect that at all.
I agree |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 02:26:47
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No they don't, plus a cargo plane has a much easier time(and needs a shorter runway) taking off empty than fully loaded.
Imagine this, when a animal flies it has to produce lift and thrust. if it only has to produce thrust it will be much easier to achieve the speeds it normaly maxes out at. Plus if it applies the muscle power it normaly used to keep itself aloft to thrust it will be able to fly that much faster.
As for maneuverability, as I understand the levitate spell(don't have my players guide on hand) aside from the ease, her turn radius should be about the same, maybe a bit better but. But her ability to gain altitude would be ridiculous, and she should be able to rise as fast as new speed would allow her to move forward until the wasn't enough air for her wings to push against. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 04:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Weiser_Cain
No they don't, plus a cargo plane has a much easier time(and needs a shorter runway) taking off empty than fully loaded.
Imagine this, when a animal flies it has to produce lift and thrust. if it only has to produce thrust it will be much easier to achieve the speeds it normaly maxes out at. Plus if it applies the muscle power it normaly used to keep itself aloft to thrust it will be able to fly that much faster.
As for maneuverability, as I understand the levitate spell(don't have my players guide on hand) aside from the ease, her turn radius should be about the same, maybe a bit better but. But her ability to gain altitude would be ridiculous, and she should be able to rise as fast as new speed would allow her to move forward until the wasn't enough air for her wings to push against.
Bodies in flight are acted upon by four forces. Thrust, forward motion. Drag, which in this case would be air resistance. Gravity, pulling it down. Lift, making it go up.
All these forces have to be in a weird balance to produce flight. Thrust and lift have to be in excess of drag and gravity.
Levitate does not negate the fact that a creature has weight, nor does it negate gravity's effect on the creature. It just holds that force in a relative degree of abeyance. In essence, it hold the critter in place despite not being on the ground.
If the levitating creature hopes to fly, it still needs thrust and lift. Otherwise, it is just shuffling along in place and not truly flying.
Negating the creature's weight, as you seem to think levitate does, means that the creature would simply ascend until they were either outside of a gravity well or the magic failed. |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 04:58:04
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Asked another DM friend his ruling-
Strictly by the rules, he believes the spell should do nothing.
However, from a more open point of view, he would allow it. ("Don't be so nitpicky and have fun")
Summed up, his thoughts were:
Speed bonus for up and down movement, not forward or backward. Maneuverability class would be high, as his reasoning is that "magic usually provides perfect maneuverability".
Just another few coppers in the pot. |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 05:59:07
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| My opinion would be it would let you hoover. *lol* |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 21:26:30
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Levitate would simply let you move straight up and down. You can't manipulate both levitate and a flying ability at the same time, however, as they both require move actions.
Most common use of this would be to let a creature normally incapbable of hovering to be able to hang in the air. (Attack penalties would still acrue, though possibly it would only be a move action to stablize; that's up to the DM.) You could use it as a way to change your plane of flight, but unless you really need to go straight up for some reason, it's probably better to do a double move while climbing. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 01:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I would treat it as any spell that doesn't stack.
Use whichever feature of the two spells/abilities is the better of the two.
And if say your flight is neutralized for whatever reason, then your levitation kicks in to keep you from falling out of the sky.
I would not think that bonuses or synergy would apply.
This is absolutely the correct interpretation. Levitation would not be helpful unless the ability to fly was negated. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 05:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
This is absolutely the correct interpretation. Levitation would not be helpful unless the ability to fly was negated.
I agree. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 17:42:11
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Sorry about bringing this up again, but I'm into this sort of stuff! This is just exploring the physics, not the DnD rules, although I agree with Chosen of Bane in terms of the DnD rules.
quote:
You're looking at this wrong. The ballon produces more drag than any benifit gained from lighter weight and so slows down the paper airplane and flys off never to be seen again. Fill a powered vehicle with a lighter than air substance and the vehicle will perform better and use less fuel(the whole idea behind hot air ballons and dirigibles). Take a gryphon, with a levitate spell the gryphon only needs to pull herself through the air, all her power can be focused on generating thrust since the spell negates the need for lift.
Actually, birds, once they're in the air, use very little energy for lift. Think of a sailboat. The wind hits the sail, moving the boat. The boat uses no energy (unless it's using a secondary source, such as a motor, to move faster). Watch a bird fly. They hold their wings out, catching hot air that is moving up (called an updraft). They flap their wings very seldom, but they still stay up. A bird moving through the air is generally not using that much energy to stay in the air, although they do use energy to get up in the air in the first place. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 17:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and obviously, if they lose the ability to fly, the levitate spell will keep them from crashing to the ground.
Ah, very true. Did not think of that. |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 17:24:16
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Fly and Levitate both “generate” lift. Remember, you aren’t dealing with fuel or mass or anything. Fly gives you “X movement and X maneuverability”. (I don’t have the books with me right now at work.) As long as you stay under the weight limit of the spell (If there is one) you move as fast as something 1/3 your mass. A sumo wrestler wearing a cardboard box and a Kobold dipped in latex, both with a fly spell on them have the exact same speed and maneuverability.
Levitate does the same thing, just up and down.
If you cast fly, you can choose to only go up and down.
Levitate and Fly are not different spells, really. Fly is just Levitate +1. That’s it. Nothing stacks. They both have the safe effect on the recipient, except that Fly allows travel along more than just one axis.
OR
Levitate is a set of Gloves of Strength +2
Fly is a Girdle of Strength +4
One is better than the other. They don’t stack.
Unless you houserule it.
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 17:34:34
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I think the point being made was that the levitate spell would assist in overcoming the weight of the flyer for the purposes of flight speed. The error in logic here is assuming the fly spell takes things like weight into account. An Ogre Magi flies at the same speed as a gnome, all other variables being equal (Level, etc...)
Now, granted, a gnome makes a superior projectile, but that's a WHOLE different thread in and of itself  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 17:58:53
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This is talking about natrual flying and levitate spell. As such it should somehow be easier to fly when the spell takes care of lift component of flying. Gavaty is offset by the spell, the wings only need to deal with drag, wind resistance.
What I would likely rule is that speed is increased by one column and rate of rise or drop increase as per the spell. |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 18:07:38
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| Well, there is another problem inherent in the equation, when your drag outstrips your mass, your wind resistance is greater than your forward momentum and would result in a net loss in a headwind (or any other wind.) I think we are just trying to take too much "reality" into account where magic is concerned. |
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Thureen Buroch
Learned Scribe
169 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 18:09:32
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quote:
This is talking about natrual flying and levitate spell. As such it should somehow be easier to fly when the spell takes care of lift component of flying. Gavaty is offset by the spell, the wings only need to deal with drag, wind resistance.
What I would likely rule is that speed is increased by one column and rate of rise or drop increase as per the spell.
I disagree. The levitate spell would make ascending and descending easier, but would not make the actual horizontal component of flying much easier, as I said before on this scroll.
quote:
Birds, once they're in the air, use very little energy for lift. Think of a sailboat. The wind hits the sail, moving the boat. The boat uses no energy (unless it's using a secondary source, such as a motor, to move faster). Watch a bird fly. They hold their wings out, catching hot air that is moving up (called an updraft). They flap their wings very seldom, but they still stay up. A bird moving through the air is generally not using that much energy to stay in the air, although they do use energy to get up in the air in the first place.
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 18:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This is talking about natrual flying and levitate spell. As such it should somehow be easier to fly when the spell takes care of lift component of flying. Gavaty is offset by the spell, the wings only need to deal with drag, wind resistance.
What I would likely rule is that speed is increased by one column and rate of rise or drop increase as per the spell.
Whoops. My misunderstanding. sorry about that. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 18:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Thureen Buroch
[quote]
Birds, once they're in the air, use very little energy for lift. Think of a sailboat. The wind hits the sail, moving the boat. The boat uses no energy (unless it's using a secondary source, such as a motor, to move faster). Watch a bird fly. They hold their wings out, catching hot air that is moving up (called an updraft). They flap their wings very seldom, but they still stay up. A bird moving through the air is generally not using that much energy to stay in the air, although they do use energy to get up in the air in the first place.
This applies to brids in local enviroment, they glide. Brids on migation are going top speed and flap their wings the whole of their flights. I have never seen a gliding goose while in a migatory flight and I have seen many such flights.
So yes birds can glide and soar however they are not going top speed when they are doing so. The beady little eyes are looking for food and or danger. When either is detected their movement becomes faster and wings flap.
In game design flying is maximun speed under conditions, diving, rising or horizontal flight. Also the game does not appear to have much on gliding to be in the air at a lower speed. |
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 18:40:47
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Well, a couple of mitigating factors then.
1) Levitate will counteract gravity to a certain extent, an extent controlled by the caster/recipient via mental control. This can provide a higher launch platform or hard deck, but anything above this would be flight as normal.
2) Wings are not set up so that you can vary the amount of power devoted to various functions. You cannot say you will just put more energy into flying forward because it's a different set of muscles and they can only do so much. Additionally, if you have nothing to counteract the lift that WILL be generated by your forward movement, you would have to be in a continual dive just to stay level.
3) If you were suspended in the air and held at a certain level(Or in water if you want to simulate the flapping) would you move any faster than you would if you were free floating? No... the reason is many-fold but comes down to the fact that you are a series of pulleys and levers internally, not a starship. You can't divert power from lift servos or life support to move faster.
4) Gliding as you mentioned is a function of 2 things, a) Weight/Mass b) Lift in the form of heat currents, more properly termed "Thermals". (Yes, I live in Texas, I watch buzzards do this ALL THE TIME. Miracle they ever get off the ground.) There are several components that are incongruous with your arguement. First, thermals are stationary, generally radiating off of the ground in a smallish area, and are not suited for travel. Second, without weight/mass to keep you in your glide pattern you just go ballistic... literally. A ballistic trajectory straight up. Third, gliding is a slow and tedious process utilized normally to stay aloft with minimum exertion. It's not a basis for speeding flight along.
What this COULD do, however, is reduce the fatigue over time of a long flight, or ease the landing of a falling flier. This could even interfere with an attack routine of a flier coming in, reducing downward movement commensurate to the force applied. It could even be used to give an ungainly flier the space and height they need to get airborne by simply lifting them high enough that they don't NEED a runway.
Myriad uses, none of which would IMO increase flight speed.
On a side note, often, when a eagle aloft encounters turbulence and storms, it will lock it's wings as it sails INTO the storm, catching the thermal updrafts relative to the storm front(which is by nature cooler) and stay above the storm till it plays out. In theory you could use weather control to achive much the same effect, but the mechanics are too cumbersome to even begin to extrapolate any rules from, not to mention how the farmers below might feel about it. |
Edited by - Forge on 05 Jul 2005 18:50:34 |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 20:12:08
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The word of the day is Discuss. Due to the ability to use both physics and magic to alter the specific mechanics of flight, there is a plethora of information and paths to take to tweak any particular spell or effect in the game.
It is up to your GM to make specific rulings in your case.
Personally, If a player is inventive enough to come up with something, I will run with it for a while on the caveat that we will wait and see if it is game breaking. If the new combination is game breaking we will renegotiate the situation.  |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Fly + Levitate = ???
