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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 00:13:13
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Greetings Scribes of Candlekeep.
My qwestion is regarding the cosmology of the realms(agian )I want to know when someone is speaking of an alternat material plane are they merely speaking of another world/campaign setting or another prime material plane in that cosmology. And if so are there any official alternate planes or would I have to construct my pwn
Thanks!
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Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 00:34:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
Greetings Scribes of Candlekeep.
My qwestion is regarding the cosmology of the realms(agian)I want to know when someone is speaking of an alternat material plane are they merely speaking of another world/campaign setting or another prime material plane in that cosmology. And if so are there any official alternate planes or would I have to construct my pwn
Thanks!
In the 3/3.5e planes each campaign setting, except for Ravenloft, is a seperate and different infinite Prime Material. So Greyhawk has it's own. The Realms has its own. Dragonlance has it's own. Etc.
In 2e they all shared 1 infinite Prime Material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 00:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
In 2e they all shared 1 infinite Prime Material.
Really? I thought that no one had determined if it was one Prime or a gazillion Primes -- especially since the rules were different on each one. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Mar 2005 00:47:31 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 00:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
In 2e they all shared 1 infinite Prime Material.
Really? I thought that no one had determined if it was one Prime or a gazillion Primes -- especially since the rules were different on each one.
Planescape and Spelljammer corrected this. It was all 1 Prime. :) But each campaign setting had a different crystal sphere. So there was thousands of different crystal spheres floating in 1 Prime. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Mar 2005 00:54:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 03:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Planescape and Spelljammer corrected this. It was all 1 Prime. :) But each campaign setting had a different crystal sphere. So there was thousands of different crystal spheres floating in 1 Prime.
So did they explain how it was that one Prime had so many different sets of rules (like how smokepowder doesn't work on Oerth, but it did on other worlds, or how you had to use the planes to travel from one world to another instead of a simple teleport)? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 03:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
In the 3/3.5e planes each campaign setting, except for Ravenloft, is a seperate and different infinite Prime Material.
Errr... Ravenloft is in a domain, completely on its own as well. In fact, the first several 3e RL tomes state exclusively that beyond the walls of the "former" demiplane... nothing is said to exist. It has now been tied into a creation of Death's realm.
Of course, the actual "domains" of the Realm of Dread come from many established worlds in TSR/WotC... or at least that was the accepted fact in 2e. However, in 3e, the worlds these domains have come from no longer relate completely to other published settings... but certain "hints" are left so that DMs can still interpret them in the 2e fashion.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 03:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Planescape and Spelljammer corrected this. It was all 1 Prime. :) But each campaign setting had a different crystal sphere. So there was thousands of different crystal spheres floating in 1 Prime.
So did they explain how it was that one Prime had so many different sets of rules (like how smokepowder doesn't work on Oerth, but it did on other worlds, or how you had to use the planes to travel from one world to another instead of a simple teleport)?
That's what the crystal spheres were for. :) Smokepowder worked in Realmspace but it didn't work in Hawkspace, etc. Or you couldn't teleport through the crystal spheres but you could teleport from 1 planet in a sphere to another planet in a sphere, etc. :) The phlo of Spelljammer also surrounded the crystal spheres of the 1 prime allowing ships to move between the spheres.
Portals were different because they connected to areas in the crystal spheres. The astral and the ethereal connected from the outer or inner planes to the 1 prime, which held all the settings except for Ravenloft and of course Planescape since Planescape tied all this together. So portals were basically wormholes that went from crystal sphere to crystal sphere or from crystal sphere to the planes or Sigil, etc.
As for Ravenloft it's just one of the thousands of demiplanes that exist in the Ethereal. Of course that 2e's version. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Mar 2005 04:09:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 05:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
That's what the crystal spheres were for. :) Smokepowder worked in Realmspace but it didn't work in Hawkspace, etc. Or you couldn't teleport through the crystal spheres but you could teleport from 1 planet in a sphere to another planet in a sphere, etc. :) The phlo of Spelljammer also surrounded the crystal spheres of the 1 prime allowing ships to move between the spheres.
Portals were different because they connected to areas in the crystal spheres. The astral and the ethereal connected from the outer or inner planes to the 1 prime, which held all the settings except for Ravenloft and of course Planescape since Planescape tied all this together. So portals were basically wormholes that went from crystal sphere to crystal sphere or from crystal sphere to the planes or Sigil, etc.
As for Ravenloft it's just one of the thousands of demiplanes that exist in the Ethereal. Of course that 2e's version.
I'm getting all of that stuff... What I'm not understanding is if it's all one Prime, why are the rules different from world to world, and why is it not easier to move from world to world? That's like saying that yeah, we both live in the same town, but the laws of physics are different in my yard, and you can't get from your place to mine without first traveling out of state.
See, from what I recall, it was things like that that had sages debating if it was one Prime for all worlds, or if all worlds were their own individual Prime. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 07:15:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm getting all of that stuff... What I'm not understanding is if it's all one Prime, why are the rules different from world to world, and why is it not easier to move from world to world? That's like saying that yeah, we both live in the same town, but the laws of physics are different in my yard, and you can't get from your place to mine without first traveling out of state.
See, from what I recall, it was things like that that had sages debating if it was one Prime for all worlds, or if all worlds were their own individual Prime.
Because each crystal sphere had different rules/laws. Take FR for example. Mystra rules over all magic based on the weave and divine spells have to come from a deity. In Greyhawk or Dlance there is no weave and divine spells do not have to come from a deity. In dlance the moon deities rule over magic. As for smokepowder, Gond decided to introduce it in the Realms but on Greyhawk the gods decided to make it null and void.
So yes there is 1 prime but the laws/rules vary from crystal sphere to crystal sphere. It's very easy to move from world to world if they are in the same crystal sphere. A crystal sphere is basically a enclosed galaxy. FR's contains the planets, the moons, the sun, the stars, and the other celestial bodies. Earths, as far as we know , would contain the planets of our solar system, the moons, the sun, the comets, etc. But when you get to the "edge" of the sphere you would find a shell of some kind that would take you to the phlo if you can pass through the shell.
It's not like saying that since the Prime is infinite while the crystal spheres are not. The spheres are enclosed galaxies basically, that float within a vast infinite plane. Earth's galaxy, Dlance's, Realms's, Greyhawk's, etc, are all enclosed in seperate spheres that float in the Prime and to get to one to the other, through the Prime, you have to go through the Phlo. Or go to the planes and take a portal or other planar pathways like the infinite staircase/the world ash/etc.
I'm not sure how else to explain this. :) Basically, as I said before, there are thousands and thousands of crystal spheres, aka galaxies, in 1 infinite Prime Material. However in 3/3.5e there are infinite Prime Materials and the crystal spheres of Spelljammer don't really exist even though FR has some version of Spelljamming.
So in that case there could be thousands and thousands of planets within FR's Prime now, instead of just the ones listed in the Realmspace sourcebook because the settings on the Prime are no longer galaxies enclosed in the shells that are in the Spelljammer material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Mar 2005 07:41:33 |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 23:30:47
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| So are the campaing settings alternatmaterial planes or are they just another material plane in the same cosmology.In other words is it a second material plane in the cosmology or is it merely anotherprime in a diffrent sphere? Because I remember a diffrent thread said in 3.5 each sphere has its own seperate cosmology |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 23:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
So are the campaing settings alternatmaterial planes or are they just another material plane in the same cosmology.In other words is it a second material plane in the cosmology or is it merely anotherprime in a diffrent sphere? Because I remember a diffrent thread said in 3.5 each sphere has its own seperate cosmology
As I said the 1st time. In 3/3.5e's planes they are all different Primes. Greyhawk's is seperate from the Realms which is seperate from Dlances, etc.
In 2e they were all on 1 Prime. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 01:39:33
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Just as a point of clarification, crystal spheres as described in 2nd-Edition Spelljammer are akin to solar systems, not galaxies. Inside each sphere is a vacuum much like outer space in the real world, enclosing a single sun and its orbiting planets, moons, comets, et al. Between spheres lay the phlogiston, a multi-colored ocean of primordial goo, with various currents leading from sphere to sphere.
The state of Spelljammer in 3rd-Edition is not quite clear at this time. Many moments in the history of the Realms are tied to events that occur in spelljammer/wildspace, though as was the case with the cosmology change in 3rd-Edition I suppose one could simply ignore all references to spelljammer and pretend they never existed. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 05:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
The state of Spelljammer in 3rd-Edition is not quite clear at this time. Many moments in the history of the Realms are tied to events that occur in spelljammer/wildspace, though as was the case with the cosmology change in 3rd-Edition I suppose one could simply ignore all references to spelljammer and pretend they never existed.
Agreed.
The Dungeon "Spider Moon" epic isn't really the 3e interpretation that one can accurately use to represent spelljamming in the current edition of the Realms.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 13:50:36
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| I heard that the Khelben that Khelben Blackstaff is impersonating is on Oerth. Is this true under the current edition? And, could a person from Krynn accidentally wind up in Faerun under the current edition? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 14:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I heard that the Khelben that Khelben Blackstaff is impersonating is on Oerth. Is this true under the current edition? And, could a person from Krynn accidentally wind up in Faerun under the current edition?
Khelben the younger is/was on Oerth, aye.
And well they could go through the Shadow Plane, Sigil, the Staircase or possibly the World Ash..... But the Shadow would be the best bet.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 15:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
And, could a person from Krynn accidentally wind up in Faerun under the current edition?
It's already happened, in the novels. Emilo Haversack, a kender, came to Toril via Sigil. We don't know what he's doing in the Realms now, but at the end of Tymora's Luck, we knew he was going to Toril with his friends Joel "the Rebel Bard", Holly Harrowslough, and Jasmine. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 16:40:53
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...or you could simply Gate between the spheres, couldn't you?
and apeaking of cosmologies... while all the Spaces in 2nd used the same outer Planes - the Great Wheel cosmology, the Primes in 3.x may use different Planes.
So while Greyhawk still uses the Wheel, there are now such things like the World Tree for the Realms. But even as Realmsinhabitant you could travel to, say, Archeron on the Wheel through Sigil or other planar crossroads, or by spells |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 17:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Antareana
...or you could simply Gate between the spheres, couldn't you?
and apeaking of cosmologies... while all the Spaces in 2nd used the same outer Planes - the Great Wheel cosmology, the Primes in 3.x may use different Planes.
So while Greyhawk still uses the Wheel, there are now such things like the World Tree for the Realms. But even as Realmsinhabitant you could travel to, say, Archeron on the Wheel through Sigil or other planar crossroads, or by spells
Yes a portal/gate could go between spheres in 2e. :)
As for 3e: May use? They do use. :) This is why a lot of people have a hard time understanding this. FR's planes are totally seperate and different from Greyhawks, etc, now. But you can still get to these other planes through the Shadow, Sigil, the Infinite Staircase, and I assume the World Ash. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
![]()
Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 18:22:52
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| Hmm...then what about the gods? Methinks that if Ao's an overgod and actually reports to a higher being, would there be other overgods? |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 18:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Hmm...then what about the gods? Methinks that if Ao's an overgod and actually reports to a higher being, would there be other overgods?
The named beings are also seperate and different in 3/3.5e's planes.
Yes this leaves us with more problems like what happens when you meet Corellon's two different and seperate high priest/priestess in Sigil, which have the same name, same looks, etc. Very weird. Do the seperate and different named beings know there could be thousands of the same named being throughout the different Primes?
But there were other overpowers even in 2e. AO for FR. Dlance also had one, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2005 : 06:25:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm...
With Kuje providing all these planar answers, I'm starting to think that I am no longer needed here anymore...  .
I can't help it. :) I've run multiplanar games for years. FR is just usually the jumping off point. And I own, like you probably do as well, all the Planescape material, except the sketchbook, and most of the generic 1/2e planar material and the 3e planar material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Mar 2005 06:25:49 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2005 : 11:47:52
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Actually I'm glad this topic was brought up because I have similar questions. I think I'm following it okay so far. Correct me if I'm wrong...
One can not cast a Gate spell from Oerth (Greyhawk) and end up on Toril (3.5). If the character wishes to travel to Toril they must first gate to the Shadow Plane (or others listed by Kuje). Then once on the Shadow plane they can gate to Toril.
Do I have this right?
The main reason of my concern is I have a Gnome Cleric of Gond in a game that takes place in Greyhawk. The DM and I came up with a story as to why a follower of Gond ended up on Oerth. The character was given a Quest spell by a high ranking Priest of Gond to travel to Oerth and stop the destruction of one of Gond's greatest creations (Tharizdun's prison for anybody who played RttToEE). With "very powerful magic (DM didn't tell me in game terms) the character was wisked off to the town of Homlet in Greyhawk. Now that that quest is complete and he is nearing the powers required to cast Gate, he wishes to travel back to Lantan with his companions and show them the realms.
What would be the easiest way for him to do this?
All of his feats are item creation feats and I was planning on taking "Craft Portal" at 18th level so he could create a portal from Verbabonc to Lantan. But if I followed the previous posts correctly this wouldn't be possible??? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2005 : 15:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm...
With Kuje providing all these planar answers, I'm starting to think that I am no longer needed here anymore... .
I can't help it. :) I've run multiplanar games for years. FR is just usually the jumping off point.
A campaign style I've enjoyed running many times.
quote:
And I own, like you probably do as well, all the Planescape material, except the sketchbook, and most of the generic 1/2e planar material and the 3e planar material.
Indeed.
Although, I managed to pick up the sketchbook about six months ago at an auction... so I consider my collection now COMPLETE.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2005 : 16:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Actually I'm glad this topic was brought up because I have similar questions. I think I'm following it okay so far. Correct me if I'm wrong...
One can not cast a Gate spell from Oerth (Greyhawk) and end up on Toril (3.5). If the character wishes to travel to Toril they must first gate to the Shadow Plane (or others listed by Kuje). Then once on the Shadow plane they can gate to Toril.
Do I have this right?
What would be the easiest way for him to do this?
All of his feats are item creation feats and I was planning on taking "Craft Portal" at 18th level so he could create a portal from Verbabonc to Lantan. But if I followed the previous posts correctly this wouldn't be possible???
Snds right to me. Or he could find a way through the other planar pathways I mentioned above.
As for a portal/gate, not the gate spell, I'd say those could go between different Primes because there are tons of gates/portals in FR that do so! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Alternate Planes
