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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 16:38:38
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Another thread on another forum just got me to wondering about the dangers of casting animate dead spells in an indiscriminate manner.
It seems to me that even as powerful emotions/unfinished goals can reanimate a revenent (sp?), so to can powerful evil.
So, if, when left unto itself, the remains of an exceptionally evil person can become animated as a wight or zombie or ghoul upon death, then what are the chances of an exceptionally evil person becoming more than just a simple zombie or skeleton if some foolish necromancer animates his/her remains?
You know, Falstaff the Necro. animates a dozen undead guards to ward his home beneath the cemetaries great mausoleum. Unkown to Falstaff however, one of the bodies he is using belonged to Orrabulus the Hooknosed, a bloodthirsty murder that stocked the lands some 50 years ago and horribly killed and mutilated over 2 dozen people, mostly young children and other vessels of innocence (eg. priests, virgins). So evil was Orrabulus that his physical remains continued to carry the imprint, the energy, and the will of all his evil even after his death, needing only a small nudge to awaken the long slumbering evil within; the nudge which came in the form of Falstaff's animate dead spell.
Thoughts?
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 17:28:23
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It's an interesting idea... I'm not sure if I accept it, though. The animate dead spell provides the energy to the undead -- it doesn't draw on what used to be in the body. If it did, this simple spell could be cast on a wizard's corpse and you'd have something like a lich, just like that.
However... How about twisting it a bit? This murderer had some magical item which did absorb a good amount of his essence -- perhaps an amulet of some sort that captured a part of his soul, or a magic weapon that did the same thing. When the murderer's undead corpse comes back into contact with this item, the magic of the item is enough to allow the murderer to reclaim his body, and become a free-willed undead. Perhaps he could even move up a couple of notches on the undead scale, and become something more powerful than just a skeleton or zombie... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 18:35:06
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| Aye. I don't know. Animate dead draws from the plane of negative energy to just give the corpse energy. The soul/spirit, unless it was higher forms of undead like ghosts, vampires, lichs, is gone. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 18:40:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's an interesting idea... I'm not sure if I accept it, though. The animate dead spell provides the energy to the undead -- it doesn't draw on what used to be in the body.
Indeed! But ............ it is possible for undead to arise without the use of an animate dead spell or any magic for that matter. Generally, this is considered to be the result of an improper burial, but it seems to me that there is clearly something more in regards to wights, ghouls and the like. Something like they were evil in life, or maybe for some reason only the negative enegery remained with the corpse afterdeath. Obviously an evil person would have more negative energy to leave behind.
So, if it occassionally happens that undead can arise without the use of magic, be it as a result of improper burial and/or lingering negative energy and/or the ambient negative energy of the area slain in, is it not conceivable that the use of magic to create mindless undead might mingle with the inherent negative energy contained within the remains to create something more than intended? Thats the question. Not what provides the energy to animate.  |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 18:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Aye. I don't know. Animate dead draws from the plane of negative energy to just give the corpse energy. The soul/spirit, unless it was higher forms of undead like ghosts, vampires, lichs, is gone.
Depends upon one's concept of the soul and its interrelationship, or lack thereof, with the physical form.
One could see the soul as putting out energy, like a nuclear reactor. And even as nuclear energy might leave radiation behind long after it is removed from the area, so might a soul leave positive or negative energy, vestiges of memory, etc. behind.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
Edited by - Beowulf on 12 Mar 2005 18:57:10 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 19:05:47
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| Hmm, certainly undead can create undead Spectres can make Spectre or a spell can make Spectres. The former certainly works though the agentcy of an undead. As for the Negitive plane (still do not believe it should exist) provided power with no type of guidence, this strikes me as impracticalble. The uninteligent undead would have no guidence, the inteligent ones being turned into undead on their death because of bad acts whie alive in game terms awards bad/Evil conduct better then a Good/Lawful Character that is dead and can only be raised by use of magic. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 19:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Depends upon one's concept of the soul and its interrelationship, or lack thereof, with the physical form.
One could see the soul as putting out energy, like a nuclear reactor. And even as nuclear energy might leave radiation behind long after it is removed from the area, so might a soul leave positive or negative energy, vestiges of memory, etc. behind.
Of course I'm talking about D&D's version of a soul. :) The body is just a house for the soul and when the body dies the soul is gone. Negative energy then takes over the body in the case of undead unless of course your using undead that are also filled with positive energy. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 19:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Indeed! But ............ it is possible for undead to arise without the use of an animate dead spell or any magic for that matter. Generally, this is considered to be the result of an improper burial, but it seems to me that there is clearly something more in regards to wights, ghouls and the like. Something like they were evil in life, or maybe for some reason only the negative enegery remained with the corpse afterdeath. Obviously an evil person would have more negative energy to leave behind.
But here's the thing: if they didn't have enough going on to animate, what holds that soul to the body? It should depart to wherever is appropriate, not continue hanging around. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 20:16:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But here's the thing: if they didn't have enough going on to animate, what holds that soul to the body? It should depart to wherever is appropriate, not continue hanging around.
Well, we're not necessarily talking about the "soul" itself, as in the "I-concept". I'm not sure any standard DnD version of the "soul" exists. Rather, we are talking about the "psychic imprint" left on the physical form by the soul ... eg. the lingering radition as opposed to the nuclear reactor itself.
This being the case, why would it depart? Save perhaps over time as a natural process of biodegradation?
As for why it didn't animate on its own, perhaps it just need that little extra to push it over the top.
Anyway, I base the idea on real world Northern European beliefs in undead (draugR), blood and bone, with lingering positive energy showing itself off in the folkish beliefs in the healing properties of the blood and bone of dead kings, heroes and saints (Yngvi-FreyR, King Oswald of Bernicia).
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
Edited by - Beowulf on 12 Mar 2005 20:19:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 22:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Well, we're not necessarily talking about the "soul" itself, as in the "I-concept". I'm not sure any standard DnD version of the "soul" exists. Rather, we are talking about the "psychic imprint" left on the physical form by the soul ... eg. the lingering radition as opposed to the nuclear reactor itself.
We do know in the Realms that people have souls, and that when the person dies, unless they become a ghost or are bound to something, they head for the afterlife.
Further... If you're going to look at it like that, what's to keep a paladin from doing the same thing when he's killed and then his body is animated? Surely if the body absorbed the psychic radiation of the truly evil, it would do the same for the truly good.
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
This being the case, why would it depart? Save perhaps over time as a natural process of biodegradation?
Why would it depart? Because in the Realms, that's what the souls of deal people do.
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
As for why it didn't animate on its own, perhaps it just need that little extra to push it over the top.
But that magic isn't directed at the lingering soul -- it's directed at the body. The body is what's affected by the spell, not anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Anyway, I base the idea on real world Northern European beliefs in undead (draugR), blood and bone, with lingering positive energy showing itself off in the folkish beliefs in the healing properties of the blood and bone of dead kings, heroes and saints (Yngvi-FreyR, King Oswald of Bernicia).
It's an interesting thought, but I can't think of any Realms-parallels.
Truly, I think you're better off to have the soul in some other medium, with it becoming reattached to its body after animation. It simply makes more sense, compared to what all has been done before.
Besides, surely there's been murderers animated before... There's no cases that I know of where a case of something happening as you propose has happened.
I realize that it is your Realms, and you can do as you wish... But I think it would stretch the bonds pf believability for the murderer to reanimate his own corpse like that. If it didn't happen from the start, then it should take something more than a simple animate dead spell to cause such an effect. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 03:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's an interesting thought, but I can't think of any Realms-parallels.
Truly, I think you're better off to have the soul in some other medium, with it becoming reattached to its body after animation. It simply makes more sense, compared to what all has been done before.
Besides, surely there's been murderers animated before... There's no cases that I know of where a case of something happening as you propose has happened.
I realize that it is your Realms, and you can do as you wish... But I think it would stretch the bonds pf believability for the murderer to reanimate his own corpse like that. If it didn't happen from the start, then it should take something more than a simple animate dead spell to cause such an effect.
Indeed it is my Realms, and really, I never thought I would have to justify the idea in those terms. To say that plenty of murderers in the realms have been executed, and reanimated, but have never come back in that way is a rather absurbed arguement for a fantasy world, in which nothing was anything until somebody imagined it. All it stands as testament too is that no one ever thought of it in quite that way before.
Its the "fly in the ointment" theory, ie. A is mixed with B with the intent of creating C, but D sneaks into the mixture and creates C, F, and G, which is hardly beyond belief and happens all of the time outside of highly artificial and, ahem, unreal circumstances.
And at the risk of sounding redundent, we are not talking about the soul itself. Whether the soul itself departs is entirely irrelevant. For clarity sake, I assume it does depart. What I am talking about is the lingering "energies" that remain with the body after the "soul" has departed. Reciprocity between various components of a complex organism is hardly unbeliebable either.
I would also like to clarify the fact that no one is intending this. Not the necromancer. Not the murderer. Not the design of some all powerful deity.
I would imagine that not every dead body that goes without a proper burial becomes a zombie or skeleton. If it happened ot every corpse there would be no need for an animate dead spell. However, based upon all of the folklore, DnD, Fantasy literature, et al. that I have ever read it sometimes does happen.
I'm not suggesting a formula, an absolute, but a possibility.
Sorry. |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 21:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
[Depends upon one's concept of the soul and its interrelationship, or lack thereof, with the physical form.
One could see the soul as putting out energy, like a nuclear reactor. And even as nuclear energy might leave radiation behind long after it is removed from the area, so might a soul leave positive or negative energy, vestiges of memory, etc. behind.
Wouldn't this be similar to a curse. The being was so evil in life that the very remains he left behind are so saturated in negative energy they become cursed. Then when the body is animated, the curse takes effect and the necromancer gets more than he bargained for.
It could work for exceptionally good individuals as well. That person's remains are blessed, as saintly relics are, for example.
Very evil characters who become incorporeal undead could also be drawn to their own animated body. In popular folklore, spirits often have a connection to some place or thing in the physical world and their remains would certainly be appropriate for such a connection. Then when the body is animated, the spirit is drawn into it and becomes a new form of, probably more powerful, undead.
I like this idea, Beowulf. It gives magic a slightly unpredictable aspect that keeps it more mysterious. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 13:02:08
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I like to think of the animated dead as more like golems but without the hassle of gluing the bits together :)
The 'golem' is there already it just needs some magic (animate dead) to move it.
I think however this is the difference in animate dead (literally make dead things move) and Summon Undead.
Perhaps a permanent summon undead spell could capture the spirit of some great evil as a spectre and hold it there, but animate dead is just manipulating matter. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 17:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Perhaps a permanent summon undead spell could capture the spirit of some great evil as a spectre and hold it there, but animate dead is just manipulating matter.
I once thought so as well. However, if Animate Dead was just a simple, errrr, "matter" of manipulating, ummmm, "matter", wouldn't holy water equally scald animated statues, animated corpses, animated tables, et al. In fact, if skeletons and zombies were *just* animated matter, then holy water should burn, and clerics should be able to command and/or turn ANY animated matter.
However, holy water doesn't burn golems. And clerics cannot command animated broomsticks.
Therefore, there is some "quality" that seperates skeletons, zombies and an other "simple undead" from any other animted matter.
The difference would seem to lie in the animating force used. Animate Object for instance must use some form of "pure" magical energy, such as might be used to empower almost any spell, generic magical force, while Animate Dead would utilize Negative Energy .... something of an oxymoron.
Now, this would explain why skeletons and zombies can be burned and turned .... assuming of course that turning repels the undead via positive energy, and holy water burns the undead via investature of the same.
It would also challenge the notion that simple undead are not evil. Its a fine line mind you, but if even simple undead are empowered via Negative Energy, and given that Negative Energy is *entropic* by nature, then it is reasonable to assume that left unto themselves, even simple undead will seek to carry out the "Negative Energy imperative", ie. to extinguish life.
Perhaps lack of thought and will prohibits the application of alignment, period, be it good, evil, neutral or otherwise (Alignment : n/a ), but certianly, if something, when left unto itself, will actively seek to hunt down life and extinguish it .... that is coming fairly close to evil.
The Battle of the Bones stands as a testament to the fact that uncreated and uncommanded undead will attack. It might also suggest an association between negative thoughts and deeds, and Negative Energy.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 19:30:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
I once thought so as well. However, if Animate Dead was just a simple, errrr, "matter" of manipulating, ummmm, "matter", wouldn't holy water equally scald animated statues, animated corpses, animated tables, et al. In fact, if skeletons and zombies were *just* animated matter, then holy water should burn, and clerics should be able to command and/or turn ANY animated matter.
Holy water comes from a deity and the positive energy plane, which is why it burns negative energy creatures, which is what fuels undead. This is why it doesn't burn golems because they are created by normal magic not negative energy.
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Animate Dead : Mindless, Malevolent
