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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 10:09:01
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Do you know the Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus? In it Sisyphus was a Greek who, for some transgression, was condemned to spend eternity in Tarterus rolling a boulder to the top of a mountain that, at the end of each day would roll back down to the bottom. One might think that there is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor.
But according to Camus, Sisyphus ultimateley found satisfaction in his fate. Sisyphus decided to own his fate. He persevered. He had found his purpose. The struggle to reach the heights was enough to fill his heart. Sisyphus was master of his destiny.
And so too do I believe the faithless as well as the faithful have made their choice on where to spend eternity. The afterlife they find waiting for them satisfies each soul according to its own needs and desires. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 10:23:16
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I think the immortal words of the philosopher Neil Peart (as related by the great bard Geddy Lee) sum it up best:
"There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
the cards were stacked against them, they weren't born in Lotus-Land.
All preordained, a prisoner in chains a victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face, you can't pray for a place in heaven's unearthly estate.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 19:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I see where you are coming from, but I just don't get why you are so offended by the Wall. The lack of a reward is not the same as a punishment.
If a father told his daughter: "If you clean up your room, I will take you to go get ice cream." And then his daughter doesn't clean her room but still demands to have ice cream, her father would be right to point out that she didn't meet the requirement and was sadly not entitled to ice cream. This is not a punishment, it is the lack of a reward which the child did not earn.
The child might cry to the heavens about how unfair and mean the daddy was, but this just makes her sound like a petulant child--which she would be if she failed to recognize that her action (or lack of it) had consequences and it was ultimately her choice whether she got ice cream or not.
True, but would any loving father place their child in a Wall until the child's existence dissapated?
It is my opinion (and I realize not everyone is going to agree) that if a god, or a bunch of gods, throws a hissy fit because some poor mortal does not--for whatever reason--actively worship them, then the gods are the ones who are acting like spoiled, petulant children, aren't they? I think they are. Is it really such a big deal to let someone just go to the plane of their alignment? Then the person is in the right spot, according to their beliefs, and who knows, maybe they'd end up helping the gods there as a result (since they live is such close proximity to them).
I appreciate your comments, Gray (I read them all). Like I said before I don't mind at all when people disagree with me. Maybe some souls are actually happy in the wall, I don't know. It can also be said that oblivion is better than punishment, but I'm still not sure about the "fairness" of it all. It seems to me that you end up being worse off for being an honest atheist than you do for being a calculating hypocrite--someone who is either False, or gets a nice afterlife because they did some cost/benefit analysis and decided to worship a god because they get some great things in return. Religion, or a protection racket?
I would like to know this though, and it would help me think about this issue better than I am now: Where did the Wall come from? Who created it? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:03:13
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It's not that a loving father is placing the soul in the wall. It is the soul itself that is choosing the wall. The rule is that the soul can only go to the afterlife of the patron god he chooses.
In this case, the soul is an orphan, with hundreds of parents applying to be his parents. The soul is allowed to "go home" with any parent he chooses, but he refuses to make a choice.
The rebuffed potential parents get on with their own lives and turn their attentions to the other children they have adopted, unconcerned with the fate of the recalcitrant orphan who remains in the orphanage, never to know the joys of a real home. Although, perhaps better off than those kids who opted for abusive parents like Bane and Cyric. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:09:45
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Who created the Wall? I can only speculate but I can make some speculations.
In the begining when Ao created the universe, there was no death. Shar & Selune coalesced out of the grey timeless mists and created all the planets and created Chauntea, the personification of life. There was no death at this point.
But the life there was existed without warmth. It was perpetual night, The universe was filled with only starlight and the cold glow of Selune the moon. I imagine the only life that flourished were the base forms, primordial creatures that do not need heat, don't eat plants, cold-blooded things. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:19:23
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Selune upset the balance between her and Shar by creating the Sun to warm Chauntea so she could nourish more life. Shar reatliated by waging war, and from the war were spawned several entities including War, Disease, Destruction and of course Death.
The entity of Death was either Jergal or his predecessor. He created the Fugue plane as a holding place where the souls of the dead would await processing to move on to the afterlife of whichever deity claimed them.
The rules for which gods could claim which souls were probably worked out in the terms of the treaty mediated by Mystra when she forged the truce that ended the War of Light and Darkness on the plane of Cynosure (created probably as neutral ground for negotiating this first peace.) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:33:19
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The rule was that the gods must come and pick up their petitioners from the Fugue Plane. They had covenanted with one another not to claim souls that had not chosen them as patrons. Jergal was either forbidden or refused to deliver the souls to the deities' home planes.
There ended up being a lot of souls that were not claimed. Perhaps in the absence of the sustaining divine essence imbued by a patron god, the ephemeral souls of the faithless became torpid, began to calcify, like lot's wife, into statues or formless lumps of dried out ectoplasm.
Or perhaps the unclaimed souls went feral, running around the plane creating havoc and mayhem like some deranged parody of the Lord of the Flies. Jergal, who would have viewed this as an affront and a nuisance to his orderly administration of death might have imobilized them, turning them to statues or blocks of stone. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:41:01
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I imagine that Jergal would have had his minions at first throw the rubble (the rabble?) into a heap. Over time the pile grew to nearly mountainous size.
But Jergal soon found other threats to his order. The fiends that Shar had recruited from other spheres to fight as mercenaries in the War of Light & Darkness, the Tanar'ri, the Baatezu, the Yugoloths, had all set up home bases in the Barrens of Doom and Despair with Talona.
The War was over but the fiends stayed. They were dug in. And they needed recruits in order to replenish and grow their numbers. But in the schema of the Great Tree, no souls would find their way to the fiends' realms. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:48:46
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The fiends stole larvae from Talona and whatever other gods inhabited the Barrens back in those days. The fiends also warred constantly between themselves in a great Blood War to steal souls from each other (among other objectives.)
The gods of the Barrens had had enough, they severed the realms of the devils, 'loths, and demons from the Barrens, cutting them loose to form the Nine Hells, the Blood Rift and the Abyss.
The Baatezu reformed their realm to resemble the Hells of the universe they came from, as it was an orderly plan and seemed the ideal architecture for their evil enterprise.
Likewise the Demons and Yugoloths refashioned their home planes into a semblage of what they had known before.
But they still needed souls to fill their pits.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 00:57:34
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The fiends punched holes through the Astral to raid the Fugue Plane for the souls of the dead of Toril.
Jergal likely errected the Wall at this point to fend off attacks from the fiends on his orderly city of judgment.
Jergal used the most available resource he had to form the wall: the calcified souls of the Faithless who languished in the Soul Heap behind Jergal's city.
Later Jergal came to terms with the Baatezu to protect the dead outside the city wall from predation by Tanar'ri, in exchange for being allowed to recruit the souls of anyone they could convince (or trick) into willingly joining their ranks. The devils try to fend off raids from the demons, and Jergal protects those inside his city by means of the Wall. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 04:10:36
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| Another thing that bothers me about the whole faithless,false,wall is how do ghosts work then? Why would any deity allow thier faithful to become ghosts? And no ghosts can be made from the faithless or false because Kel controls them and he hates undead. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 05:51:42
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I don't think ghosts ever make it to the Fugue Plane. Somehow their petitioner form gets shunted into the Ethereal instead of through the Astral to the Fugue Plane.
Whether this happens due to a freak accident with the Astral Conduit short circuiting, or if this is some kind of a psionic phenomenon unleashed by bitter or traumatized spirits at death, I can only speculate.
But if the petitioner never makes it to the Fugue Plane then it is out of Kelemvor's jurisdiction. He can't judge a soul until it comes to the Fugue Plane and enters his city.
On the ethereal plane ghosts are beyond the reach of Kelemvor, whether they are faithful, false or faithless. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 06:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I don't think ghosts ever make it to the Fugue Plane. Somehow their petitioner form gets shunted into the Ethereal instead of through the Astral to the Fugue Plane.
Whether this happens due to a freak accident with the Astral Conduit short circuiting, or if this is some kind of a psionic phenomenon unleashed by bitter or traumatized spirits at death, I can only speculate.
But if the petitioner never makes it to the Fugue Plane then it is out of Kelemvor's jurisdiction. He can't judge a soul until it comes to the Fugue Plane and enters his city.
On the ethereal plane ghosts are beyond the reach of Kelemvor, whether they are faithful, false or faithless.
Yes but there's nothing for the new planes that says this is so. That's my point. How are ghosts made from the Faithles, False, or souls in general. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 18:35:48
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| The baatezu didn`t create baator, they took it from the knowers. And in Lord of Stormweather "SPOILER" Thamalon Uskevren and the other dead go to planes of their own alignment, so something is a bit fishy here about the whole faithless thing. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 20:11:41
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Well I am basing my assumptions on the fact that Baator must surely be an interloper plane (like Arvandor) from the way the 3E cosmology is set up.
Who are these Knowers of which you speak? I hadn't heard them mentioned before, and I am very interested to know.
As for Stormweather. I haven't read it so I can't explain the discrepancy. In 3E cosmology souls go to the Fugue Plane when they die and are collected by their patron deities to move on to their respective afterlives. |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 01:41:52
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This is just something I though off however I am not saying the wall is a bad thing. what if the gods provided a litle more to the fugue plane(basic materials) and the faithless just live there in there crude homes they aren't sufferingthey can talk run around play and all that other stuff they just don't get the perks of living in a better plane. Also I think if you let a faithless just go to the plane of his or her alignment you wouldn't need to worhsip a god. But the gods need you toworhsip them as decreed by AO so supposedly they do this to make you worship them so they dont die. (worhship us or this will happen theys say. Hmmm is seems the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods hehehe.
Oh one more thing does the wall hurt if it dosen't it can't be as bad as some of the false or lets say Talos followers.
Just soem thoughts
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Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 07:07:19
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The FRCS does not say that the wall is painful. I assume then that it is not.
It does say that a supernatural greenish mold binds the souls into the wall and over time the mold breaks down their spiritual substance and their consciousness, until the soul eventually disolves and probably merges with the plane.
One might then surmise that the wall is mind-numbing both in the sense of the tedium it engenders and also in the sense that the mold numbs your consciousness, perhaps causing a soporific effect, eventually leading to a kind of coma before dissolution and ultimate death.
But there is nothing to stop the souls from talking to one another and to passers by. Though immobile, they may be able to tell stories and jokes and discuss things of interest to while away the time. That aspect of the wall might be downright social, even fun. So perhaps the wall is not so bad after all. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 13:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Who are these Knowers of which you speak? I hadn't heard them mentioned before, and I am very interested to know.
They are also known as ancient baatorians. They inhabited Baator before the devils came along. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 13:03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
As for Stormweather. I haven't read it so I can't explain the discrepancy. In 3E cosmology souls go to the Fugue Plane when they die and are collected by their patron deities to move on to their respective afterlives.
Then 3E is ****ed up. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 14:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Who are these Knowers of which you speak? I hadn't heard them mentioned before, and I am very interested to know.
They are also known as ancient baatorians. They inhabited Baator before the devils came along.
Errr... No. The Knowers are NOT the ancient baatorians. That is merely one of the hundreds of 'loth lies that perpetuate through the millennia.
As far as I recall, the actual "species" of the Knowers has never been detailed specifically.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 14:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Who are these Knowers of which you speak? I hadn't heard them mentioned before, and I am very interested to know.
They are also known as ancient baatorians. They inhabited Baator before the devils came along.
Ah, well, that is from Planescape, and true for the Great Wheel cosmology. Likely not the case in the 3E FR cosmology.
In the FR creation myth the Nine Hells were not there in the begining. The Baatezu were probably invited in to the Great Tree. Possibly very early on to serve as mercenaries in the War of Light & Darkness between Shar & Selune. After the war was over they stayed and expanded their beachead, fashioning it to look like the Baator of the Great Wheel or whatever universe they first came from.
This is all speculation on my part. But the Baatezu apppear to be interlopers, similar to the way that the Seldarine, Dwarven, Orc and Goblin pantheons interloped and set up copies of their home planes within the Great Tree.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 17:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
As for Stormweather. I haven't read it so I can't explain the discrepancy. In 3E cosmology souls go to the Fugue Plane when they die and are collected by their patron deities to move on to their respective afterlives.
Then 3E is ****ed up.
It was that way in 2E, as well. So was that edition messed up? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 20:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The FRCS does not say that the wall is painful. I assume then that it is not.
It does say that a supernatural greenish mold binds the souls into the wall and over time the mold breaks down their spiritual substance and their consciousness, until the soul eventually disolves and probably merges with the plane.
One might then surmise that the wall is mind-numbing both in the sense of the tedium it engenders and also in the sense that the mold numbs your consciousness, perhaps causing a soporific effect, eventually leading to a kind of coma before dissolution and ultimate death.
But there is nothing to stop the souls from talking to one another and to passers by. Though immobile, they may be able to tell stories and jokes and discuss things of interest to while away the time. That aspect of the wall might be downright social, even fun. So perhaps the wall is not so bad after all.
It may not be painful, but being trapped in a wall, fully conscious yet knowing eventually you'll lose that consciousness and self identity, falling into a coma and finally oblivion has got to be horrifying. Perhaps the souls come to accept their fate, making conversation with others or passersby, but wouldn't this kind of existence drive them mad? A prisoner locked in a small cell with other prisoners can certainly talk to them, but I can't see this being percieved as a fun social gathering. One would hope it does cause a sopoforic effect as that would indeed be merciful. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 01:55:31
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No doubt it does drive some mad.
I certainly don't think it is a picnic to be in the wall. For some it might not be so bad and for others it could well be its own kind of torture.
But the gods don't care about the people in the wall. The Faithless have turned a blind eye to the gods, and the gods cannot be concerned with their fate.
It could have been a lot worse. If the gods had wanted to feed the Faithless to Kezef or Dendar, or bury them in the ground and plant seedlings in their heads, those would be actively cruel fates. The wall is relatively neutral.
The faithless should count themselves lucky.
The gods don't want to punish the faithless, but they certainly can't be seen to reward them either. It's against their interest to encourage Faithlessness. Why should they make the afterlife for the faithless as good as the afterlives of the faithful? If that were not discouraged, if Faithless were allowed a happy afterlife, that would encourage people to turn away from the gods.
No I'm afraid the Wall is about the best you could reasonably expect for the faithless. |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 03:24:07
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I havent read the whole thread and so can only hope that this was not mentioned before. if so skip this post .
so i reread the novel "crucible, the trial of cyric the mad" and there are some interesting things in it about the afterlive with kel as the god of the dead and why the faithless and the false are not let go to there alignment planes or anything like that.
so let me quote:
as a man lets himself be dragged into death kel asked him why.
"Kel:zale, why did you allow your foe to drag you into this fissure? ...let go and saved youself?
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zale:Nothing to fear in death. brave man in life sure to receive reward in death.
kel:but you are faithless! who will reward you?
zale: you lord kel! trust your justice before any god who demands flattery and offerings."
...
But most critical was this: the brave and couragious would lose their fear of death and sacrifice themselves in foolish causes, like zale had done. faerun would be left to the cowardly and the corrupt.
...
unquote.
so this shows that the faithless view it better to be judged by kel than lead a happy afterlife at the paradies of a god. this is nothing the other gods can let happen, because after the tot ao said the might of a god would be measured on the believers the god had.
no one believing in gods = no gods
that leeds to the question: if the faithless believe kel will judge them right, isnt that believing in kel? 
so as to the alignment planes, kel had something like that.
quote:
of all places in the city of the dead, rapture round displayed most clearly the character of kels reign. the round was a vast circle of gardens where a dozen boroughs came together, and from penance hill at its center, lord death could see them all. in pax cloister, a vast region of high peaks and shadowy valleys, dwelled the spirits of peaceful hermits who had lived their whole lives desiring nothing more than solitude and quiet. next to it stood the idyll hamlets, which were the villages of simple country spirits who valued family and good company above wealth and power. ....
the vista behind kel was not so pleasant. in the acid swamp, teh spirits of charlatans and swindlers gathered along roadways and bridges to beg ehlp from passersby. next to this, the crimson jungle was filled with murderers and torturers of every sort, all changed into ravenous beasts too busy devouing each other to escape. ....
unquote
so for a time kel had the concept of giving every soul its proper resting place in the afterlive.
the next quote will be a little biased by the narrator of the story as he is a follower of cyric but read for yourself.
quote
...kel saw that he had made a poor god of death - especially compared to cyric, who knew in his infinite wisdom that humans are weak and selfish creatures who will always seek the easy way to do anything, except when they fear some incredible pain or anguish. on this account, the one had made his realm a place of bitter sorrows, to prevent the faithless and the false from seeing death as an escape from their harsh and vulgar lives, and also to prevent the faithful from turning their backs on their own gods.
...
unquote
quote
...into islands where the charlatans and swindlers might find refuge from their soggy existences. no longer would lord deaths judgements be decrees of eternal bliss or unending agony. now the dead would make of their lot what they could, just as they had in life, except that they would dwell only with others like themselvels, which was certainly enough to make any mortal stay faithful to his god.
...
unquote
quote
...
as the usurper spoke, he opened the gates of his city. many gods did as he asked, though sune ....convince her lord death had done all he claimed. the others continued on, swooping down ashen streets crowded with dull-eyed residents, passing whole boroughs of drab buildings and dead trees, crossing graceless bridges that spanned still waters the color of steel. they saw no cruelty or malice, but neiter did they see joy; lord deaths realm had become a domain of shuffling spirits and passionless shades, a place of neither punishment nor reward. and in the heart of this dismal city loomed the crystal spire, a soaring minaret of smoky brown topaz encircled by a line of sorrowful spirits, the false and the faithless.
unquote
i dont know if kel is still putting faithless in the wall but it seems to me that he is doing his job. and that is all there is to it. he didnt made all the rules he must abide by, so let the dead rest in peace.  |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 05:05:01
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Hey thanks for that! I haven't read that novel (though now I think I must) and I appreciate you sharing those telling quotes.
I think that sheds a lot of light on things. |
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Beyond Death
