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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 20:36:19
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Ok, guys, I could use some help on this one. I'm DM'ing a high powered (and long running) 2e game. One of the PC's is an elven high mage (not the stupid PrC, but the old, powerful class extension using Cormanthyr rules), and she's angry right now because agents of Shar killed her husband.
So what does the player decide to do? After browsing Cormanthyr again, she sets out to rediscover the N'Quor'Khaor and imprison Shar for all time. I'm already coming up with insanely difficult quests to throw at them, but knowing my group, I bet they'll actually pull it off (in a year or two).
Anyway, I wanted to ask what your thoughts on the impact of Shar's imprisonment would be to the Realms. Once the ritual's completed, Shar will be stuck in a little cell, unable to see, affect, or grant spells into all of Realmspace
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 22:09:25
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Thats a pretty big event, I think it's crazy. in a good way. i figure if shar is gone for all time, you could get into how all of his worshippers and such are now royally screwed. no more cleric spells, other cults& religions overpower them, They may be wiped out, etc. I like the Ideas...
Also, where did you get the elven high mage, the good one. becuase I want a decent one in my 3e campaign for the elven wizard who just joined from evermeet. Anyways, I'm doing the opposite of what youre doing with the materials. converting 2e stuff to 3e. I implemented some 2e rules that are gone too. so.
Selune might get far more powerful, and with shar gone, talona may seek to avenge her, as they are the ones who frequently ally with eachother.
did your players attempt to revive the husband? I mean you said they're high leveled, and I figure they could.
or maybe they could planeshift to the plane of her husband's deity and arrange to bring him back. they may be able to negotiate for his physical form, a new physical form, or bring him back as a ghost and create him a new shell. maybe transform the ghost back into a living version of itself with the spell that can raise dead only on an undead or ghost creature the name escapes me at the moment.
you have alot of ways you can take this man. could be cool |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 22:56:24
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I dunno... I think that PCs shouldn't be able to touch any but the weakest deities, and even that should be insanely difficult. In this case, you're talking about a Greater Power and one of the 2 first deities in Realmspace.
As for the impact... If the PCs somehow pulled off this impossible quest, the obvious change would be to the Shadow Weave -- it would likely become inaccessible. This would irk a lot of Shadow Weave users, and possibly have seriously adverse effects on the City of Shade.
Selūne and other good-aligned deities would likely go on the offensive, trying to wipe out as much of Shar's powerbase as possible. Clerics, churches, shrines... Without Shar around, those things would fall readily.
In the meantime, the evil deities would be scrambling for her portfolios. One or two non-evil deities may join the fray, too -- I can see Shaundakul or someone like him trying to grab the Underdark portfolio. Mask would likely try for night, while Cyric would go for secrets...
But really, I think it's a fool's quest. I doubt that all of the High Mages in the Realms, working together, could pull this one off. There is no way I would allow the PCs to succeed -- some targets are simply too big. You're talking about someone who could easily pull out some very big guns, here... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 05:20:51
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Umm, don't forget she also has to find another couple of High Mages to complete the Ritual as it's not one of Solitude. So when and if she gets the High Magic 'recipe' she's after, she unfortunately just might be unable to find anyone to cast the spell with her. Too bad, so sad.
Quite simply, you shouldn't let her succeed.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 06:13:17
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| Yeah... It'd would be like Dirty Harry on one side, and the entire US military on the other. Harry might be a bad dude, but against that kind of target, he's toast. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 07:20:06
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If you let Shar react even remotely as she is supposed to, your players will die.
It's that simple.
Shar is THE most powerful evil deity of Faerun. She ALSO has the strongest single magical force at her disposal (Shade) and knows of any act committed in darkness about a year beforehand.
And lets be honest: If Bane or Mystra have a contingency plan, so will Shar.
And if she does, and does come back, all assuming the imprisonment works in the first place... She's going to be seriously pissed off.
No, such a target is way out of your players league. That, and its HIGHLY questionable if the binding magic has any influence on Shars shadow weave magic.
And Shar has 18 avatars. Are they going to imprison every single one of them?
If I were you, I'd throw a hunting party from the Shar temple at them - to make sure they understand the true power of their intendend target before its too late.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 17:54:07
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Thanks all. Yes, I'm well aware of all the difficulties, including a need for more High Mages. Like I said, this will take a few years to play out. But hey, if the campaign's to go out with a bang, might as well take on the biggest baddie around! I was curious about the effects if they succeeded; I'd thought about a war over the Shadow Weave but didn't think about her portfolio.
Oh, and about resurrecting the husband: elves don't believe in resurrection. Period. Once you die, you stay dead. So while she could get him raised (heck, either of the two PC priests could do it), she won't. Personally, I was really pleased with my player actually role-playing that part of her character well. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 18:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Oh, and about resurrecting the husband: elves don't believe in resurrection. Period. Once you die, you stay dead. So while she could get him raised (heck, either of the two PC priests could do it), she won't. Personally, I was really pleased with my player actually role-playing that part of her character well.
Always nice when you get good role-playing out of players with an event like that.
One thing, as a recent novel showed, while it is very, very, very, very (enough verys in there for you?) rare, an elf could attempt to resurrect a loved one. I think it clearly shows an elf breaking from his/her society's tradition. However, given the individualistic nature intrinsic in the elven race, I can see this happening.
Of course, given Arvandor's description, why would a fallen loved one wish to leave? Or to quote the end of a novel, "everything bad passes and we are all headed to a much better place." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 23:02:59
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Another thing that needs to be considered: even though Shar is evil, with her around, there is a rough sort of balance among the evil-types. If something happens to her, it could cause a war both among the gods and among the mortals. And in war, people die -- this often includes innocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Is this High Mage so angry that she'll condemn possibly hundreds or even thousands of innocents to die, just because she lost her husband? If she succeeds, many other women will lose their husbands... And all of this is simply about vengeance -- it won't bring her husband back. What gives her the right to condemn innocents to die, just because she's mad? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 23:18:43
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| I don't think she's thought that far ahead yet, to be honest. I know I haven't, that's part of the reason I started this thread. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 23:57:29
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As a possible way to point this out to her, you could have her encounter someone in much the same position as her. This person and his/her family were innocent bystanders during one of the deific conflicts that happened during the ToT. The NPC's parents were killed by the effects of two deities battling, and the NPC has since hated all servants/worshippers of the aggressor deity -- and perhaps even has a vendetta against all who battle without thinking of collateral damage.
You could expand on that last bit, too. Let's say this NPC is a human mage, male. He has seen innocents die because of gods, he has seen innocents die because of arcane duels. He styles himself a protector of the weak, because of this.
Now he finds out what the High Mage intends. On the one hand, sure, taking out an evil deity is a worthy cause. On the other hand, the collateral damage is going to be incalculable.. So this mage may be just as good and just as anti-Shar as the High Mage, but because his perspective is different, he's going to do everything in his power to stop the High Mage.
I think that adds a fun twist to it. How does a good-aligned PC react when an NPC opposes them for good and noble reasons, especially if these reasons are something the PC would otherwise agree with?
Oh, and a thought I just had... This prison blocks them off from the Realms, but binds them to the Weave. The imprisoned entity can't draw from the Weave... But if the Weave is not present, the Shadow Weave is! And the Shadow Weave is Shar's... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Mar 2005 23:58:23 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
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SoulLord
Seeker
Mexico
62 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 21:48:33
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aaaaa its good to be back after such a long absence...
well for starters i see many similarities to what happened to the drow during lotlth's silence a cornered beast always fighta back the hardest.
after it happens as was suggested many will try to take advantage perhaps some will try to get shar's followers with promises of power while some look for a way to release the imprisioned deity.
now the party will have to look and thwart all of these groups trying to restore shar.
perhaps the goddes of magic now that her counterbalance is gone switches to an even more good alignement perhaps even to the point of cutting of the weave evil people which could make people not followers of shar to try to release her as to restre the balance.
the same with druids... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 23:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulLord
perhaps the goddes of magic now that her counterbalance is gone switches to an even more good alignement perhaps even to the point of cutting of the weave evil people which could make people not followers of shar to try to release her as to restre the balance.
Mystra already tried something similar, and was slapped down for it. |
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SoulLord
Seeker
Mexico
62 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 15:46:21
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| I have heard of something like it would you happen to have a reference to that scroll? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulLord
I have heard of something like it would you happen to have a reference to that scroll?
It's in the novel Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. Mystra was favoring good-aligned spellcasters, and powering down the spells of evil ones. While she was trying to make her case that Cyric wasn't doing his job as a deity, it was pointed out to her that what she was doing wasn't much better. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Mar 2005 22:57:59 |
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Draighox
Acolyte
Lithuania
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2005 : 12:47:10
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To Hoondatha
Was this husband a player, or NPC?
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It's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings. - Kurt Cobain |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 07:31:51
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| He started out as an NPC, but then was taken over by a new player who'd been watching us for a while and liked the character. I think it also helped that he was the boyfriend of the elven player... Anyway, he played it well, I have no complaints. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Draighox
Acolyte
Lithuania
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 10:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think it also helped that he was the boyfriend of the elven player...
Ahh... I was wondering how to establish relations like husband and wife between characters, and I guess that's the only way. |
It's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings. - Kurt Cobain |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 09:03:51
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| Was the elven PC and her husband Elven Bonded? |
We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 15:46:40
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| Huh what? I only run 2e, as my signature states. I casually watch 3e as one watching a train wreck happening, but that's all. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 16:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Huh what? I only run 2e, as my signature states. I casually watch 3e as one watching a train wreck happening, but that's all.
 Train wreck...I like that.
But, the elven bond that elven_songstress spoke of is something that existed even in 2E. I take it by your reaction you don't know what is being mentioned and thus don't incorporate the element into your campaign. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 21:52:02
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| No I didn't know. My apologies, I thought it was some stupid feat thing. What is it? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 22:10:00
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A elven bond is a mystical conncetion one elf forms with another being, it is usually done only once in a lifetime, but that person becomes the characters world, there life evolves around there mate and vice versa.
It would explain the elf's sucicidal thoughts after the death of her husband.
Personal I would think that from all the novels that they have released of hero's accomplishing great things that it would be possiable, as there are people that Shar has really fracked off in the past, and would love to see her restrained to seize a protfolio or two, but I don't see it lasting, mainly because there has to be a a balance and she would likely be freeded or break free after a bit, though prehaps minus a portfolio or two she would have to go about getting back.
If they could pull it off, I don't see why not. Leave it to the fate of the dice and good role-play?
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We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 01:59:06
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Ah, right. Rapport. I didn't realise it was also called "elven bond," though when I double-checked the Complete Book of Elves I found it under that name. My mistake.
No, they weren't bonded. There was no need for it (they loved each other) and I was a little leery of giving two players in essense unlimited telepathy at will. Fortunately, it never came up.
Oh, and she's not suicidal. She's just seriously out for vengeance and doesn't care if she dies at the end, as long as she succeeds (which is good, since the ritual WILL kill her if she ever pulls it off). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 03:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
My apologies, I thought it was some stupid feat thing. What is it?
No need to apologize. I can understand the confusion if you never heard the phrase before. It really does sound like a feat. "Take the elven bond feat as soon as you reach third level...." 
quote:
I was a little leery of giving two players in essense unlimited telepathy at will.
I've never played it as telepathy, more emotions, especially powerful ones could be felt by the other partner. Would definitely mean cheating when in an elven marriage with the bond is most likely out. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 03:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Oh, and she's not suicidal. She's just seriously out for vengeance and doesn't care if she dies at the end, as long as she succeeds (which is good, since the ritual WILL kill her if she ever pulls it off).
Has she yet realized the countless people who will suffer if she's successful? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 05:23:00
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I threw the ToT survivor that was suggested above at her. It's, uhh, not had the desired effect. She's a good enough role-player that she's half-convinced him to go along with her scheme. She's got the High Mage strong personality in spades.
Seriously, I think I'm going to have to come up with an elven variation on that theme. When introduced to the "the human gods and their clergy might just go to war with each other in the aftermath" possibility, her reaction was essentially, "Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. But if the humans kill each other, then maybe they'll leave off killing us for a while." Not too concerned about it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 06:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
"Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. But if the humans kill each other, then maybe they'll leave off killing us for a while." Not too concerned about it.
Given history, a somewhat understandable reaction from her character considering her current state. |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 06:45:50
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An elven bond is more of a flaw then a feat in my opinion. I had a character with it once long ago. An elven bond goes beyond love from what it says its a deeper love.
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We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 06:48:38
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quote:
Originally posted by elven_songstress
An elven bond goes beyond love from what it says its a deeper love.
Well said. |
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Imprisoning Shar
